Steel 13T Private Owner Wagon

demu1037

Western Thunderer
One cheapy tool that may also be useful (for cutting sheet brass) is a squarker - is that how you spell it? nice clean cuts without deforming the sheet

waiting with interest for construction to begin...

Andy
 

phileakins

Western Thunderer
The first copy of the Finescale Railway Modelling Review contains a soldering tip that I've not seen published before, contained in David Brandreth's Cordon article.

'As a rule of thumb' the temperature of iron should be set at twice the melting point of the solder plus about 25 degrees. This should be increased if there is a lot of metal. He makes the point that the size of the bit is important so as to quickly heat the surface.

There are a lot of other soldering goodies in that article - well worth reading. The man surely is a master of the iron.

Phil
 

adrian

Flying Squad
Not too sure why it has to be twice the melting point. I have some 243C solder which works fine even though my temperature controlled iron only goes up to 400C. However I do agree about the size of the bit as it is important to get the heat as quick as possible into the joint. It doesn't matter how you do it but if you don't get the heat into the joint then the solder won't flow.
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
I don't get it either, I tend to set my iron to a (fairly arbitrary) 100'C over the solder melting point. Admittedly with a decent and powerful soldering station I have the opportunity to do that and the iron will look after itself...

Steph
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thanks to Phil and Brian for your input. There will be as many opinions on what tools to use as there are modellers. The intention with this build is to keep things simple, to get people started and develop skills without spending lots of money. This doesn't mean you should buy the cheapest possible tools, they are often a complete waste of money, but it is about selecting tools that are fit for purpose. Once you have learnt the basics you can upgrade if you want to, choosing tools which suit how you work.

Yep! A good list for start up and one with which I'd not argue. In fact it will be varied by individuals as experience is gained.

We can discuss soldering iron temperatures but practical experience will easily show what works well for you and I'll not argue with any proposals. Personally I've found that an iron temperature of around double that of the solder I'm using works well for me. However, whatever temperature you settle on higher is generally better than lower - as an example, for whitemetal I use 100 degree solder (sometimes 144 degree with a higher iron temperature, but there is an element of risk there) and an iron temperature with a large tip of 200 degrees. Then in and out double quick. Again, though, there'll be variations as a white metal boiler will act as a huge heat sink and take much more heat.

Anyway, this build will be an interesting process to follow and I hope will allow detailed discussion as it progresses.

Brian
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
demu1037's post last week pointed out I had left a scrawker off the tool list. I use an Olfa P-Cutter blade in an old Stanley knife handle. You can grind your own scrawker from a hacksaw blade but the P-Cutter works very well with no mucking around. They work very well for scribing lines in plastikard as well, the only thing I have never found them useful for is cutting plastic.

I made a start this afternoon using these tools, plus a couple of others which will be mentioned as we progress -
tools1.jpg

Nothing too fancy. The rivet press is a Double L, not sure if they are still available but I like the simplicity of it. Any rivet press can be used and building a steel wagon is a good practice exercise using the tool without the risk of spoiling a valuable loco kit. If things go wrong it will only be a small piece of brass to replace, and the reject can still be used to practice on.

Before starting to scratchbuild a wagon (or anything else) I think through all the pieces required to build the wagon and write a cutting list with the sizes of the various parts, usually scrawled on the drawing so I don't lose it. I usually make most of the parts before assembling the wagon, just like a kit, the only difference is you mark out and cut the pieces out yourself instead of cutting them from a etched fret and cleaning them up. I am using the drawing attached to the first post, printed out at full size for 7mm scale. Obviously, the same methods can be used to build any similar wagon so you don't have to build a Butterley 13T mineral wagon. I can post the cutting list I used if required but it is a good exercise to measure off the parts from a drawing and think about how the parts fit together and how much allowance is needed for the thickness of metal you are using.

I am using 0.2mm brass shim to build this wagon. It is readily available from non ferrous metal merchants by the metre (or foot) from 300mm wide rolls. I am also using an Exactoscale sprung underframe unit, the 9' wheelbase with 9" solebar RCH version. Other W irons or underframe units can be used. You don't have to buy the running gear before making the wagon body, so if the first try doesn't turn out as well as hoped there is no great loss.

IMG_9802 exactoscale.jpg
IMG_9805 exactoscale.jpg
The Exactoscale underframe unit simply folded up and the other parts, plus a matching brake gear set.

So you know where we are heading, this is where I am up to now -
IMG_9832 kit.jpg

The next post will follow fairly soon, explaining getting from a drawing on paper to brass parts. If there are queries, ask as we progress and let me know if you want more or less information.
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Piercing saw blades...

People often write "buy the best quality" and "do not buy those made in China / Far East (add wherever you fancy)" and do so without explaining how to judge quality. Where do you buy your blades? I appreciate that your suppliers might not be the first that spring to mind in the UK, so where do WTers like Richard, Adrian, JimG... buy their blades.

I buy from Squires and I have no complaint about blades being "dull" or cutting a circle in preference to a straight line. I do not know the manufacturer or country of origin.
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
I always buy jewellers saw blades from jewellers suppliers. I worked near Smithfield Market for 5 years so used to walk to Hatton Garden at lunch time. Most jewellers suppliers stock more than one brand of saw blades at different prices. At least one of the good Swiss brands uses a 'gold' wire wrapper. I can't tell the difference between the blades by sight but you will soon know if the blade is not good when using it.

Back to steel wagons. I cut a strip of 0.2mm brass about 120mm wide (x 300mm) as the wagon is 115.5mm long. Using vernier callipers to measure out the width of the floor, then the sides and ends helps with accuracy. Set the vernier to the required size then mark with the scriber. An example -
IMG_9813 measure.jpg
The blue colour is marking blue to help see the scriber marks, felt tip marker does the same job.

The cutting list for the main body parts - Floor 115.1 x 55.6, sides 115.5 x 29, fixed end 55.6 x 29, door end 55.6 x 28. If using thicker brass adjust the sizes to suit.

Keeping the parts square is very important and an accurate engineer's square is vital for marking out and checking the parts. Another useful tool is the square mounted on a board, as seen previously for scribing and cutting styrene.
IMG_9795 square.jpg
One of the methods of cutting thin brass is with a scrawker. Mark the width, hold the brass against the guide and drag the scrawker across repeatedly. A hard surface under the blade helps avoid distortion. A Stanley knife can also be used but is a bit harder to control.

Another option for cutting out the parts is a jewellers saw.
IMG_9808 saw.jpg
This is one bought many years ago from a jewellers supply shop in Edinburgh which I like because the screw adjuster makes tensioning the blade very easy.
IMG_9809 saw.jpg
This blade is much coarser than I would choose to use for metal of this thickness. Generally the thinner the metal the finer the blade should be. I was feeling lazy so left the blade I had in the frame and modified the cutting technique slightly by sloping the blade. The saw should do the work, don't force it. Support the brass on both sides if possible, a simple saw cut in a piece of plywood works well. Aim to stay close to the scribed line but don't worry if you don't cut completely straight as it is easy to file back to the line.

Another method of cutting brass is with tinsnips.
IMG_9810 snips.jpg
These are small Gilbow G56 snips bought from an ironmongers in Fleet in 1992.
IMG_9811 snips.jpg
When cutting with tinsnips multiple cuts should be made, gradually working towards the scribed line. Hold the brass flat on the lower blade so all the distortion is in the strips being cut off. Finish with the file.

And another tool which makes cutting rectangular parts and especially strips much quicker.
IMG_9800 shear.jpg
This is a Chinese made 3 in 1 shear, bender and roller, 1 foot wide. The same device is available from Clark in the UK. The shear is good, the bender not very useful for our purposes and the rolls are too big for most modelling. But it is one of my favourite tools. I recommend getting one if you are planning to do a bit of metalwork. Or find a friend with one and go and visit for an hour or two.

Rivets next.
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
I appreciate that your suppliers might not be the first that spring to mind in the UK, so where do WTers like Richard, Adrian, JimG... buy their blades.

I've been getting mine from Eileens and find them OK - certainly better than the ones I had before which I got off one of these big model tool racks in a London model shop. They really did cut beautiful circles. :)

Jim.
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
Before rivets, a bit more background. The wagon in the photograph in the first post is definitely a Butterley built wagon. With thanks to 7mmMick, the Modellers Backtrack article on the 16 ton wagons has a few paragraphs on the predecessor designs including the Butterley Patent wagons built between 1925 and 1939. The wagon drawn is a Butterley wagon modified by BR with a angle top piece replacing the original filed over top, the give away being a small joggle in the top of the side verticals. The other interesting thing about the Butterley wagons was they were bolted together to make replacing panels easier but fortunately for us BR tended to use rivets instead of bolts for the later repairs.

It is possible to model bolts but it will be much slower than punching rivets and probably a lot more expensive. Using a rivet press is quick and quite easy to do. Practice helps. To capture the appearance of the wagon you do need to count rivets and look at where they are and how big they are so you can model them. Rivet counting is a very enjoyable activity when it leads to making a model.

I will show how I use my rivet press. Some of it may be useful if you have a different rivet press. Perhaps someone can explain how they use theirs to achieve the same outcome. As mentioned previously I have a Double L press. I used the second largest of the standard rivet dies for the wagon body and the largest for the sole bars. It is simply screwed to an off cut of timber to make it stable.
IMG_9791 rivet press.jpg
The die has an eccentric circle machined in the top surface and the die is rotated to adjust the spacing.
IMG_9820 rivet press.jpg
The back stop is adjustable to vary the distance of the rivets from the edge of the piece of metal.
IMG_9817 rivets.jpg
Equal spacing is achieved by sliding the brass along until it is past the edge of the eccentric circle, by feel, and held in position while the lever is rotated (to the same position each time to make the same size indentation). Each rivet takes a moment to make and move on to the next one. From past experience with other rivet presses I think a drop weight striking the punch can be easier to use and make consistent rivets.
IMG_9830 rivets.jpg
Where rivets are not along an edge I scribe a line and mark the position of the rivets with cross lines. Positioning the punch is slower, and mostly by feel. This takes more practice to get good results and is one situation where the GW Models press with X-Y table can be useful. The photo shows the rivets on the inside face of the side being punched, the indentations are covered by the riveted strips added later on the outside.
IMG_9825 rivets.jpg
For the riveted straps, hinges etc I rivet along the edge of a sheet of brass and then cut off the strip. This is easy with the shear (guillotine) but not too difficult using the scrawler and square.
IMG_9828 rivet marking.jpg
Where the rivet spacing is irregular I mark the edge of the sheet from the drawing, then punch the rivets using the backstop to keep the rivets the same distance from the edge, but not the spacing feature.
IMG_9826 rivet strip.jpg
Mark the width of riveted strip required with the scriber and cut off to width.
IMG_9833 straps.jpg
To end up with a bunch of these. Its not too hard to keep track of which strip goes where.

At this point you should have cut out the floor, sides and ends, and riveted them as well as making the strips. If working without a guillotine it will be quicker to buy some pre cut brass strips of suitable thickness. For this wagon 2 and 2.5 mm wide plain strips are needed. You could also punch rivets into the strips but there is far more likelihood of distortion.
IMG_9832 kit.jpg
The result is a kit of parts. The photo also shows the solebars which I made first but will discuss making them after assembling the body. I am not sure whether to talk about how long things take to do as everyone will work at their own pace and there is no point rushing. Each of these components only took a short time to make so if you don't get it right first time have another go. For the record this is the result of 4 hours work.

Next time, assembly of the body. Tell me if more or less information is needed.

[I should add that I had also scribed the locations of the verticals on the body sides and ends, as well as centre lines and axle centres on the underside of the floor. The side doors were marked out and the joint lines deepened using the P-Cutter.]
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
Lets get soldering. The very low tech equipment I use is all in this photo, although I left out a fibreglass pencil thingy.
IMG_9883 tools.jpg

The soldering iron is a Weller W60D with the highest temperature bit (this is a 'temperature controlled' soldering iron with a temperature sensor in the tip, I have found only the 430 degree version works for brass). Solder is normal 60/40 Tin/Lead rosin cored electronics solder, 0.56mm diameter in this case. Flux is 'Green Label' which I apply with a tooth pick. A piece of plywood with a piece of pine screwed to it makes a good base to work on and for holding parts while soldering 90 degree joints. The loose piece of wood is for holding the side in place while soldering to the floor and end. A couple of coffee stirrers or similar and a couple of pegs and thats it.

The camera battery decided to go flat when I was assembling the main body parts so there is a lack of in progress shots. I can do another one if anyone needs to see the progress step by step. Basically I soldered the fixed end onto the floor, then added the sides and finished with the end.
IMG_9839 body.jpg

Start with a quick rub with the fibreglass pencil along the joint edges then place the floor flat on the board and the end against the block. Apply some flux along the joint, not too much as it just makes a mess, a couple of drops from the tooth pick will do to start. Then hold the parts in place with fingers and wooden sticks, pick up a small amount of solder with the hot soldering iron and transfer to the joint. The first blob should just be a small tack joint so the alignment can be checked, with the rivets it is sometimes difficult to get everything perfectly aligned as the surfaces are not all flat. If the parts are not aligned properly, apply heat and separate then have another go. If they are aligned apply more flux and keep soldering the seam, starting away from the tack so that keeps holding until some of the seam is made. For these joints a small fillet of solder along the inside helps add strength to the joints.

Watch the solder to see how it behaves with the heat from the soldering iron. It will tend to follow the areas the flux has been applied to. Relax and get the feel for your soldering iron and solder on the brass. The thickness of the brass affects how quickly heat is transmitted away from the iron, with the thin brass I am using here the heat doesn't spread as fast as with thicker brass, probably due to greater relative losses to radiation from the surfaces. Nickel silver is much less conductive than brass so the heat travels more slowly and less heat needs to be applied to solder effectively. Practice on some offcuts of brass to get the feel for it before launching in. But even if you make a mess it is always possible to apply more heat to take it apart and start again. It should look something like the photographs, no cleaning up has been done at this stage.

IMG_9838 body.jpg

The photos show that I had started adding the end verticals before the camera battery charged enough to take pictures. Adding the body details will follow in the next instalment.
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
Now the basic body is assembled it is time to add the detail. Actually, it depends on the prototype whether I add the strapping etc before assembly or after. Sometimes it is easier to work with the parts flat on the bench and then assemble the body. It can be difficult holding things square to solder when they have different width bits sticking out all over. So for the steel open I decided to assemble the body and then add the strapping. Sometimes I cut a wooden block to fill the inside so you don't need to be as careful handling the somewhat flimsy body.

This is one I made earlier, with the verticals soldered to the body panels before assembling the body. There are quite a few more rivets and bits in this 1850s iron van than in the open wagon.
Wright p2.jpgWright p3.jpg

Back to the mineral wagon, find the previously prepared riveted strip for one side of the doors. Cut it so it is overlong and hold in place with a clothes peg or similar. Note that the lower part of the strip is not siting flat on the body side, this will not be a problem because the first spot of solder will be next to the peg and that will hold the strip in place while holding the strip down with one of the coffee stirrers to solder the bottom end. I realise I haven't taken enough action shots but it is difficult with only two hands. Let me know if more illustration is needed. Flux is applied, so it wicks under the strip before soldering.
IMG_9844 vert peg.jpg

First strip in place, don't worry too much about keeping the solder perfectly tidy as it can be cleaned up later. But don't use too much solder as it will take longer to clean up afterwards. If you do have a bit much solder it is best to apply some more flux to the flat brass alongside the strip and apply the soldering iron and drag the solder away from the joint so it flashes over the flat brass in a very thin layer. It is then very easy to remove using the fibreglass pencil. Second strip laid in place before positioning the peg to hold it for the first spot of solder. Note the scribed lines on the body to identify where the strips go.
IMG_9851 side.jpg

Next, solder plain strips on to form the protruding leg of the angle irons. I hold them vertical against the previously soldered riveted strip with one of the wooden sticks and a finger (away from the end being soldered). If the verticals have a shaped profile such as the splay at the top it is easier to cut this before soldering onto the body using the tinsnips. This wagon had smaller 45 degree chamfers at the bottom end but I decided to leave the bottom end long and file these chamfers later, so the length is not critical. Note the solder looks a bit messy in this photo, I like to run solder into the joint between the two pieces forming the angle to represent the curve present in hot rolled steel sections. It is a balance of using enough solder but not too much. If you do end up with excess add flux and spread the solder out onto the flat panels again. There shouldn't be a problem with the first piece unsoldering while the second in being soldered on alongside. If you do have a problem with this it means too much heat is being applied, either the iron is too hot, or not high enough wattage so too long is needed to heat the joint which heats a wider area as well, or you are dwelling too long. It is a case of getting the feel for the soldering iron and watching how the solder behaves.
IMG_9847 side.jpg

The end stanchions are similar but because they are T sections instead of angles three parts are needed. The same method is used, one of the riveted strips is soldered in place first, then the protruding plain strip (with chamfered top to match the prototype) and followed by the second riveted strip. The alternate rivet pattern is characteristic so make sure you have the two pairs of riveted strips in the right places.
IMG_9840 end.jpg
IMG_9854 body.jpg

The end door angles, hinge straps and corners follow along using the same methods.
IMG_9860 body.jpg
Another method of holding the hinge strap in place -
IMG_9863 hinge holding.jpg
You might be able to see in the above photo that I have filed off the tops of the rivets on the body side to better represent the flat topped rivets often used in this situation. The bits of strapping sticking out the top should be cut off and carefully filed down to match the body using a jewellers file.
IMG_9866 door.jpg

Then the angle needs to be added along the top, although if you are building a Butterley Patent wagon in original condition you would only need a plain strip along the outside of the top edge. I held the strip along the inside of the side with pegs, as in the photo, moving them as needed to keep the strip flat on the side.
IMG_9868 top.jpg

The plain strips for the top of the angles were then soldered on. Holding them in position can be awkward, I used the modified stirring stick which appears in the photo of the tools in post 35 to hold the strip in place while tack soldering in place then turned the body over and finished the seam from the outside with the strip flat on the bench.
IMG_9869 body.jpg

And that is where we get to after about 10 hours total working time. Looking at the photo and seeing the water droplets, I realise I haven't said much about washing the model as you go. A quick rinse under the cold tap and a rub with an old tooth brush keeps things clean, you should rinse at the end of each session at least and I usually rinse before using files and other tools on the model so they don't get flux directly on them.

If anything is unclear I can probably explain things better, or take some more photos. Hopefully it will all become clear when you have a go. I would like to see someone commence at least one other wagon before I finish this one.

Still the solebars, door catches, hinges and other bits and pieces to do.
 

7mmMick

Western Thunderer
Looks spot on Fraser, I really am enjoying the blow by blow account as I will refer to this in the future, :bowdown::thumbs:

ATB Mick
 
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