Why not scratch build diesel locos?

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
The "demise" of Just Like The Real Thing (JLTRT or maybe even NQLTRT) made me think about the impact of that loss on 7mm modern image modelling after reading some comments, on another 7mm forum, to the effect that "without JLTRT I might as well go back to 4mm RTR modern image". That comment suggests to me that there are some 7mm modern image modellers who consider that building from scratch or from etch kits is not for them. Does the comment mean that scratch building of 7mm diesels is considered to be difficult compared with building 7mm steam locos (or even 7mm electric stock)? Does the comment mean that the future of 7mm modern image modelling lies with pure RTR?

So this topic is about how 7mm modern image modelling might develop if there is no revival of the JLTRT brand. I am aware that DJH does have several decent whitemetal kits of BR diesels... and that Judith Edge has cornered the market for 7mm small diesel shunters... and we have MMP as well. However, given the way in which the "without JLTRT...." comment has been expressed then I suggest that such models may be seen as beyond the skills of the person who posted that comment. No posts comparing chalk and cheese please.

To help to understand how 7mm modern image modelling goes forward I feel that there is a need to understand why scratch building of diesels is considered to be difficult.

thank you, Graham
 
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thruxton

Western Thunderer
Diesels/ electrics etc present a number of challenges, generally starting with that all important 'face'. My somewhat sporadic thread on building a series of turbines gives an indication of my approach and I have recently become very involved with 3D printing on that front. This has proven a boon for such things as multiple production of the three varieties of complex axleboxes for the 18100. But, whilst I can draw with a pencil and prepare vector drawings in CorelDraw I have no skill in the 3D drawing programmes. I have been completly reliant on the collaborative good will of a very good 3D'er who is now approaching his 81st birthday!
What about Western Thunder forming some sort of skills pool to help promote more scratch building?
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
On the face of it, scratchbuilding a diesel should be easy, certainly on a par with coaches and wagons. The problem that I see is the general idea of actually making something for yourself isn't what many people consider.

I enjoy bodging around with metal and styrene. A lot of others don't - or can't. You only need to see the waves of comments complaining that Bachornby don't provide a certain sub class in a specific livery that was carried on a certain day in November 2004. No thought that taking up an airbrush and actually - clutches metaphorical pearls - repainting the thing in the box to the livery you want is even possible!

As I climb from my soapbox, I should say I'm always up for sharing information and mucking in with builds. Building a specific loco from scratch, provided good drawings and certain detail parts are available, ought not be too much of a challenge.

I have long entertained the idea of building a good scale model of LMS 10000 from scratch. Then along came a good kit that did most of the hard work for me. Who knows if that range of kits will reappear or not.
 

Jordan

Mid-Western Thunderer
Two words sum up the problem challenge:-

Compound Curves.

Notoriously difficult to get spot-on, & often, as Thruxton has said, such curves affect the 'face' of the engine. Of course, R-T-R has not been immune from such a distressing affliction, either.

Edit: just as an observation, I was quite surprised at how little comment has been generated on this Forum - the "doing & building" Forum - by the demise of JLTRT. 'Over There' it's run to several pages.
 

nswgr38

Member
While the bodies of diesels are sometimes quite easy to make, unfortunately, the complex cast bogies and the associated brake gear, cable runs and often very significant piping / fittings under the body can make it a nightmare - at least it was for me. I considered building O Gauge NSW diesels, but decided to stick with steam in the end for that reason. Without decent drawings of the bogies etc., it's really hard to make a convincing model. Drawings, allied with 3D printing, may offer a way forward.

I agree with you, Heather. How much scratchbuilding goes on nowadays? Not a criticism, just an honest question.
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
... just as an observation, I was quite surprised at how little comment has been generated on this Forum - the "doing & building" Forum - by the demise of JLTRT. 'Over There' it's run to several pages.
And just how much of that content "over there" has any real value in regard to modelling? No, do not bother to answer...

What is worth saying here is that buried amongst the responses to the liquidation announcement on the Railnuts FB page is a comment asking about availability of stock in hand... and the response "What do you want?" from a person associated with JLTRT. I, like several others, replied positively and there are a number of requests for specific kits from the range.
 

Jordan

Mid-Western Thunderer
Perhaps too many people are "doing and building" as opposed to frothing and stirring :) ;) :D
I wouldn't disagree with that, but there isn't much "woe is me" over there either; more some pertinent comments regarding payments for goods not yet received, & somewhat bizzarely, what has happened to steam loco kits from other ranges that may or may not have gone to JLTRT.
 

Steve Cook

Flying Squad
more some pertinent comments regarding payments for goods not yet received, & somewhat bizzarely, what has happened to steam loco kits from other ranges that may or may not have gone to JLTRT.
Not sure why we would discuss payments for goods not yet received - even if somebody from here was affected, surely the pertinent point is to deal directly with JLTRT? As for the steam engines, perhaps there just aren't enough people here who are interested in the JLTRT offerings. Anyway, we are rather drifting off the topic that Graham wanted to discuss, can I suggest that discussions and opinions relating to the unfortunate demise of JLTRT are dealt with on this thread instead.
Cheers
Steve
 

Ian@StEnochs

Western Thunderer
I haven’t scratch built a diesel in 7mm scale, son Kenneth has though, howeverI did build this one in 4 mm scale many moons ago.

4E80F269-20DD-4547-B6DC-D681AE96D034.jpeg

It was a challenge and presented a whole different set of problems compared to building a steam loco model. Virtually every steam locomotive has a nice straight, ish, footplate which can be the basis on which the body can be built and the frames hung underneath! Most diesels don’t, Clayton, EE type 2 and this one being exceptions, so it can be very difficult to find where to start and to measure from.

The easy bit? was the bogies, just like a steam loco chassis without the coupling rods but a lot of repetitive work making springs, brake cylinders and pipe work. The hard bit was the louvres and vents. I am happy to have built one but I won’t be scratch building anymore diesels soon.

I can appreciate the work which went into the patternmaking for JLTRT diesel kits and I am sure the price charged went nowhere near covering the development costs let alone give a reasonable return on the investment.

Ian.
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
I think one problem I have found with trying to model the "modern" scene is the lack of good GA drawings. Even the NRM admits that is has very few diesel drawings since British Rail had retained them all. I know that I have been trying to find a drawing of a Class 303 (Glasgow Blue Train - see avatar) since the 1970s with no luck at all. A good drawing with indications and dimensions of how the complex curves were generated could make all the difference for modelling driving ends. I don't see power bogies being a major problem since the components - springs, axleboxes, etc., are fairly straightforward items to make. The plumbing underneath can be a bit of a jungle. :)

I got copies of Carter's Electric and Diesel books some years ago but they are a fair source of information, but hardly a source of accurate dimensions for building a larger scale model of any of the locomotives in the books.

Jim.
 

geoff_nicholls

Western Thunderer
I second what JimG says, I found a few drawings of parts of the body of a Derby Lightweight in the NRM catalogue, but nothing at all from the bogies etc. At least there is a preserved one, which can be measured. There is nothing at all for classes 142 or 144, even the owners don't have anything.
Perhaps JLTRT could be persuaded to allow someone access to their artwork, to allow decent GAs to be drawn, then deposited with either NRM or HMRS.
 

richard carr

Western Thunderer
It's the face every time. You only have to look at all the cock ups that have been made by the kit and ready to run manufacturers over the past 20 plus years to realise just how difficult it is to get it right. JLTRT were the best and most consistently correct but they still made the odd mistake.

The ability to to 3D print may change that but even with good drawings it is not going to be easy.

Richard
 

Rob Pulham

Western Thunderer
To answer Graham's thread title question from someone who does like scratch building (with my tongue very firmly in my cheek), because they don't remotely interest me:p
 

steve1

Western Thunderer
A friend of mine by the name of Clive Mortimore has build a considerable number of diesels, electrics and units over the tears in 4mm. There is a taster of them here --> Hanging Hill - Layout topics

Also, I knew a 7mm modeller called Reg years ago who scratchbuilt diesels and kettles using the metal from the back of a filing cabinet in his office. He said it was ideal...

steve
 

BrushType4

Western Thunderer
A friend of mine by the name of Clive Mortimore has build a considerable number of diesels, electrics and units over the tears in 4mm. There is a taster of them here --> Hanging Hill - Layout topics

Also, I knew a 7mm modeller called Reg years ago who scratchbuilt diesels and kettles using the metal from the back of a filing cabinet in his office. He said it was ideal...

steve
I think tears is right. My best work always ends up with finger prints where I've used too much solvent. :(
 

Ian_C

Western Thunderer
Diesels/ electrics etc present a number of challenges, generally starting with that all important 'face'. My somewhat sporadic thread on building a series of turbines gives an indication of my approach and I have recently become very involved with 3D printing on that front. This has proven a boon for such things as multiple production of the three varieties of complex axleboxes for the 18100. But, whilst I can draw with a pencil and prepare vector drawings in CorelDraw I have no skill in the 3D drawing programmes. I have been completly reliant on the collaborative good will of a very good 3D'er who is now approaching his 81st birthday!
What about Western Thunder forming some sort of skills pool to help promote more scratch building?
Skills pool or no - I'd class myself as a capable 3D'er. Kind of enjoy it, in a sort of virtual scratch building kind of way. If you're stuck and have some decent drawings to work from I'll offer to help you out with a few bits & bobs.
 

thruxton

Western Thunderer
Well, with me on 2D that's a starting pool of two.
Ian, I'll pm you with a potential contribution to the APT-E.
 

Ian@StEnochs

Western Thunderer
Skills pool or no - I'd class myself as a capable 3D'er. Kind of enjoy it, in a sort of virtual scratch building kind of way. If you're stuck and have some decent drawings to work from I'll offer to help you out with a few bits & bobs.

Being able to use 3d cad and getting the resulting files printed is not model making. Let’s get back to proper craft skills, it’s not rocket science!
Ian.
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Being able to use 3d cad and getting the resulting files printed is not model making. Let’s get back to proper craft skills, it’s not rocket science!
This post is close to what was going through my mind when I wrote the opening post. JLTRT offers a range of steam locomotive kits and a range of diesel locomotive kits, so coverage of most of peoples' interests. The loss of the steam kits may be annoying to many of those who like building models, I doubt that those people are going to be put off by the loss of JLTRT. On the other hand, those who have bought JLTRT diesel kits may feel that scratch building diesels, using either 3D / CAD skills or working with sheet materials, is beyond their abilities... and hence embrace RTR.
 
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