A question for learned members on a railway infrastructure item at Kings Cross Gas Works?

Good evening all,

Chris is about to embark on another scene from Kings Cross. She is using the photo below as the basis and the photo is copyright Simon Lathlane who has given his permission for Chris to use it.

In the left foreground is a post with a box on it which looks to have some sort of bellows type attachment and we would like to know what it is so that further research might be done to get a clearer photo of something similar to allow Chris to do it justice in the final painting.



Many thanks in advance for any suggestions as to what it is/what it's used for.

Judging by it's position it could be an early route indicator however there is no access ladder nor signal. There is an electrical junction box at platform height - could be a shrouded illuminated sign for that particular track.

Rob,

Pretty sure that's not a bellows, but a box with an angled cover on the front. Fairly sure it's an early route indicator signal for Down Slow or Down Fast #1 or Down Fast #2 or a repeater.

My initial thought was that it was on the exit to Platform 10 which is the main departure platform, but a quick look through my books shows it to be on the exit from the hole. This is Platform 16 and the track is heavily graded and curved as it comes up from the GNR extension to Moorgate.

Kings Cross Passenger loco (depot), sometimes called bottom shed was built in 1923, the suburban side of the station, of which Platform 16 is part of, was rebuilt in 1932, so that signal may have only lasted nine years. At that time the ECML was still RH drive, hence the post being to the right of the track.

I've found one distant view from near the tunnel mouth but I'll see if I can find a better photo for you, it might take a day or two.

In the mean time here's a couple of photos from Platform 15 and 16. I've marked in red where your signal would be so you can get a good idea of the gradient, curvature and sighting on approach.

From Platform 16 coming up from the hole. Gradient and curvature easily seen and the photograph angle is excellent for showing where the signal would be and the sighting view/restrictions.


From Platform 15 (disused) Platform 16 is to the far left and dropping down toward the hole, trains never went down here, only up, the down side was over on the other side of the station at a location called York Road. York Road was in a direct line from the photographer past the 45 gallon drum to that modern brick building in the distance. That building was and may still be, the new Kings Cross signalling centre.


Hope that helps.

MD

Brilliant,

Thanks Mick, - bellows was the only word I could think of to describe what I suppose is a shroud (now why didn't I think of shroud when I asked the question DOH!).

If you can find a shot which shows a bit more detail it will be appreciated.

At the Epping Ongar the term used is a 'theatre box'..

Not sure if the same description was used on the ECML.

JB.

Scale7JB said:

At the Epping Ongar the term used is a 'theatre box'..

Not sure if the same description was used on the ECML.

JB.

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Thanks JB, I found some references to Theatre boxes last night after Mick and Dave's replies but I was of the impression that it was a modern term for them - only because the only examples that I could find were modern ones

It could be a signal of some sort, I have my doubts, but it certainly isn't a theatre route indicator. Doncaster was built in 1924 and appears to still retain short travel valves which were changed to long travel in February 1928. Additionally a policy decision by the LNER also in 1928 was to move engine numbers from tenders to the cab side, and whilst that wouldn't have happened overnight it was done fairly swiftly, my thought is the photo is prior to Feb 28.

Kings Cross didn't get power signalling until 1932 courtesy of SGE and the route indicators in that scheme were effectively a motor driven roller blind, once seen in operation never forgotten, and the general proportions of Rob's mystery object look wrong, as well as the date. As an aside I have the 1932 scheme plan and I cannot find a route indicator the exists on its own, i.e not co-located with a signal head. At the time of the picture KX was mechanically signalled and and indeed behind the "thing" is a signal post with three arms.

I have a book by Peter Coster "The book of the Great Northern" which has a pre 1932 picture looking southward across the west side of the station and this object is clearly in situ located in between platforms 15 and 16, however if it were a signal a train stopped at it would be straddling a pair of facing points which kind if defeats the purpose of a signal. I cannot entirely exclude the possibility that it is a signal, but I don't think it is. If it isn't, quite what its purpose is eludes me.
Regards
Martin

Rob

If you are going to use this photo as the basis of a painting, I would remove that object and pretend it didn't exist, it is very distracting from the loco image, if I had taken that today I would be looking to photoshop that out.

The same goes for the mast stickingo ut of the loco ahead of the dome.

Richard

Martin Shaw said:

It could be a signal of some sort, I have my doubts, but it certainly isn't a theatre route indicator. Doncaster was built in 1924 and appears to still retain short travel valves which were changed to long travel in February 1928. Additionally a policy decision by the LNER also in 1928 was to move engine numbers from tenders to the cab side, and whilst that wouldn't have happened overnight it was done fairly swiftly, my thought is the photo is prior to Feb 28.

Kings Cross didn't get power signalling until 1932 courtesy of SGE and the route indicators in that scheme were effectively a motor driven roller blind, once seen in operation never forgotten, and the general proportions of Rob's mystery object look wrong, as well as the date. As an aside I have the 1932 scheme plan and I cannot find a route indicator the exists on its own, i.e not co-located with a signal head. At the time of the picture KX was mechanically signalled and and indeed behind the "thing" is a signal post with three arms.

I have a book by Peter Coster "The book of the Great Northern" which has a pre 1932 picture looking southward across the west side of the station and this object is clearly in situ located in between platforms 15 and 16, however if it were a signal a train stopped at it would be straddling a pair of facing points which kind if defeats the purpose of a signal. I cannot entirely exclude the possibility that it is a signal, but I don't think it is. If it isn't, quite what its purpose is eludes me.
Regards
Martin

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Thanks for the input Martin,

My appologies I forgot to add in the OP that the photo was credited as being taken in 1925 which ties in with your thoughts as to era.

richard carr said:

Rob

If you are going to use this photo as the basis of a painting, I would remove that object and pretend it didn't exist, it is very distracting from the loco image, if I had taken that today I would be looking to photoshop that out.

The same goes for the mast sticking out of the loco ahead of the dome.

Richard

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Thanks Richard,

Were it me I may well have done as you suggest but Chris is a bit tenacious and I suspect that she will add it and blend it in so that it doesn't overshadow the main subject.

She does plan to remove the rear of the tender on the right hand side though.

richard carr said:

If you are going to use this photo as the basis of a painting, I would remove that object and pretend it didn't exist, it is very distracting from the loco image, if I had taken that today I would be looking to photoshop that out.

Click to expand...

Looking at the image I think the subject locomotive was masked using dodging tools during the darkroom processing in order to achieve this without resorting to retouching. The loco and the surrounding 'oval' is slightly lighter than the remaining area creating a slight vignette. Photoshopping in it's literal sense - 55 years before the computer software .

Artists, naturally, have been doing this for centuries .

I've got one of those "Artist's Licence" things, but not inscribed on velum though! I try not to use it too often either as I'm afraid that I might wear it out.

Writ large thereupon it states; "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story"!!

I agree that the mystery object is most likely to be an illuminated sign (with a single flat shroud at right angles and on the nearest side of the sign itself).

More recent pics show a plain low level, sign-written affair close by, that carried special instructions to drivers:

This latter appears to read something about "taking care not to foul (?) roads when..." ?

Might that be the answer....?

Pete.

Peter Insole said:

I've got one of those "Artist's Licence" things, but not inscribed on velum though! I try not to use it too often either as I'm afraid that I might wear it out.

Writ large thereupon it states; "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story"!!

I agree that the mystery object is most likely to be an illuminated sign (with a single flat shroud at right angles and on the nearest side of the sign itself).

More recent pics show a plain low level, sign-written affair close by, that carried special instructions to drivers:

This latter appears to read something about "taking care not to foul (?) roads when..." ?

Might that be the answer....?

Pete.

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Hi Pete, anything is possible, are you able to point me in the direction of the photo(s) that you are referring to please?

Yorkshire Dave said:

Looking at the image I think the subject locomotive was masked using dodging tools during the darkroom processing in order to achieve this without resorting to retouching. The loco and the surrounding 'oval' is slightly lighter than the remaining area creating a slight vignette. Photoshopping in it's literal sense - 55 years before the computer software .

Artists, naturally, have been doing this for centuries .

Click to expand...

Hi Dave,

Well spotted, a technique I have used myself when taking photos with film what seems like a lifetime ago....

Now looking at it again, the sign is a bit further back down "Hotel Curve", but I still suspect that it was a similar notice.



It also looks more like instructions for drivers of light engines following something or other...??

Of academic and curious interest only really, as there are no graphics visible on the original photo. There is so much going on in the picture anyway that it could indeed be a slight distraction from the main composition?

Probably still a good idea to keep the sign fairly "low key" then?

Pete.

Peters sign I think is for the banking engines that were sometimes used on freights from south London, to save them having to cross right over the whole Kings Cross complex to get to York Road they would of set back down the hole and crossed over underground, probably around Farringdon.

There's many a tale of freight engines stalling in the tunnel, the crew only knowing their direction of travel by sticking their arms out of the cab and touching the tunnel wall. One train slipped all the way back down, despite still being in forward gear and chuffing away merrily to it's self, the crew oblivious to the slipping and the train sliding backward.

mickoo said:

eters sign I think is for the banking engines that were sometimes used on freights from south London, to save them having to cross right over the whole Kings Cross complex to get to York Road they would of set back down the hole and crossed over underground, probably around Farringdon.

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It would have been Farringdon - between the Ray Street Grid Iron and the station.

Martin Shaw said:

It could be a signal of some sort, I have my doubts, but it certainly isn't a theatre route indicator. ......

Kings Cross didn't get power signalling until 1932 courtesy of SGE and the route indicators in that scheme were effectively a motor driven roller blind, once seen in operation never forgotten, and the general proportions of Rob's mystery object look wrong,

Click to expand...

There were mechanical route indicators installed in 1922 as part of the scheme that saw the introduction of three position semaphores. I'm not sure that this is one of those since, they seem to have bee associated with signals, but it could have been a repeater.

I don't think its a signal. Possibly a shielded light for part of the sidings. You can also make it out here: https://www.mediastorehouse.com/p/6...class-locomotive-flying-scotsman-11633848.jpg

cbrailways said:

I don't think its a signal. Possibly a shielded light for part of the sidings.

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I'm not so sure as it's located on the Hotel Curve. It may be a stop board for the end of the platform or toe of the point. As Mickoo alluded earlier if the locos were RHD then the platform end would be unsighted by the driver.

I've looked again and take back what I said. More than likely its the signal for exit from the Hotel Curve platform. The two signals for the suburban platforms look to be on similar posts (with signal heads hanging from wires). Perhaps the signal concerned had to be shielded from misreading from the other Suburban platforms.