An Unusual Collection

The LNWR Oerlikon stock had similarities with the LNWR push-pull saloons that I rode in on the Oldham-Delph service. The coach with the closest external resemblance was the Diagram M12, but the internal seating arrangement of most of the open saloons was like the Oerlikons with standee sections and hanging ceiling straps. There was a double thickness wall behind the small windows adjacent to the sliding end doors. They differed a lot from yer average coach of the period. The roof profile was unique to the electrics and push pull saloons.

Seating in the later built examples (and Oelikons) was no better than that found in the average 1940's/50's bus, but this was also true of the GWR auto trailers.

All the little bits of info and thoughts are much appreciated. They really help to put some meat on some very bare bones. There is a photo of the interior of one of the vehicles, Larry, so that may be of interest, but you'll have to wait until I get to it.

I agree, Dave, that there is a lot of interest to be drawn from these rather indifferent photos in terms of quality, and regrettably I reckon you are correct, James, and many collections like this one have gone in various skips. Very occasionally you'll find a collection of slides or negs in an antique fair (flea markets are better) and even more rarely some of the content will be railway related. I'll always buy such a collection.

However - a couple more photos.

The first is again either Croxley Green or Stonebridge Park. The vehicle in the background appears to be a 501 unit. In ignorance I'm assuming that the main subject of the photo is a motor, but from which stock I suspect we'll never know. Just look at the coal bin and stove - or perhaps it's a boiler - to the right of the motor.



We can build up some assumptions about this shot too. It is certainly at Harlow Town. It'd be good if it was sharper, but the lorries in the left background are an interesting touch. I'm wondering whether this was taken on the same day as the photo at what we believe to be Liverpool Street - in fact could the unit be the same one? In view of the rather narrow subject matter (for the most part) in this album I'm even more inclined to believe that these may be the photos of a professional railway man. Look at the people on the platform - all male and all paying rather more interest to the train than one would, perhaps, normally expect. One could take the assumptions further - could this be one of the first units on the service, or has the line only recently been electrified so of professional interest?



Brian

It's the same unit, #296, so it'd be fair to assume it's a test run or special train and would explain why an AM2 was on the west side of Liverpool Street.

I'm sure I've seen that Harlow Town shot in BRILL or one very much like it, that might give more info if I ever found it.

mickoo said:

It's the same unit, #296, so it'd be fair to assume it's a test run or special train and would explain why an AM2 was on the west side of Liverpool Street.
I'm sure I've seen that Harlow Town shot in BRILL or one very much like it, that might give more info if I ever found it.

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I think we can be fairly certain that the date is on or after July 30 1960, because that was the date of the renaming of the rebuilt station (previously Burnt Mill). I also think it's likely to be before November 1961 after which date the AM2 is likely have moved to the LT&S lines from Fenchurch St.
Perhaps it is the day of the opening of the renamed station. The weather looks right for July in Harlow!
John K

John K said:

I think we can be fairly certain that the date is on or after July 30 1960, because that was the date of the renaming of the rebuilt station (previously Burnt Mill). I also think it's likely to be before November 1961 after which date the AM2 is likely have moved to the LT&S lines from Fenchurch St.
Perhaps it is the day of the opening of the renamed station. The weather looks right for July in Harlow!

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Judging by the denuded tree in the background (above the two on the left walking down the platform and not a mark on the negative) I'd say it's winter or spring.

Yorkshire Dave said:

Judging by the denuded tree in the background (above the two on the left walking down the platform and not a mark on the negative) I'd say it's winter or spring.

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I agree dave - Good spot.
John K

Thanks again, chaps, for useful observations and comments. Once again I'm building up a picture in my mind of what these are all about. What's clear is that all the subjects are jumbled on each page, rather as if the photographer took all his prints, threw them in the air and entered them in his album in whatever order came to hand.

However, three more:

I must admit that, while spending several hours on this one I wondered whether it was truly worth the effort. I still do! However, the main subject appears to be vehicles from a 501 unit. One of these appears to be on accommodation bogies.



This is a better picture in all technical regards - better but not great! I wonder whether this is another taken on the possible trip from Liverpool Street via Harlow. Do those catenary posts give any geographical guide? The weather is still looking wet and time of year fits.



This may also be associated with the same trip. Weather still wet, the units look GE (to me at least) and that looks like a DMU on the left. Which depot, though? There are few enough clues from this photo.



Brian

oldravendale said:

I must admit that, while spending several hours on this one I wondered whether it was truly worth the effort. I still do! However, the main subject appears to be vehicles from a 501 unit. One of these appears to be on accommodation bogies.

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Given the cleanliness of the carriage I wonder if these photos taken around Croxley Green during the introduction of these units. Again there is no yellow warning panel on the front of the left hand unit. Interesting it's mostly electric stock and wonder if the photographer was involved with railway electrification.

oldravendale said:

I wonder whether this is another taken on the possible trip from Liverpool Street via Harlow. Do those catenary posts give any geographical guide? The weather is still looking wet and time of year fits.

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The catenary is certainly of that used on the electrified GE lines and I would say it is the same trip. The only guides for the location are the overbridge in the background and the bridge the train is crossing.

oldravendale said:

Which depot, though?

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Ilford or Stratford for the GE lines.

Thanks again chaps. The efforts today start to confirm some of the suggestions made earlier, and also start us in the London Transport direction.

Firstly pretty much confirmation that the AM2 unit is out on a rail tour, as here it is again. I'm not certain about location though.



Next. Another - or is it the same - vehicle from 501 set. As this one is on accommodation bogies I suspect it's the same vehicle as has appeared twice previously. Regrettably even Photostitch won't put them all together, though.



Here's the first of the London Transport images. I'm wondering whether we'll be able to identify an approximate location as we go through the rest of the collection, but I'm leaning towards somewhere on the Met. It's a shame that this, along with quite a few more, are such poor images, but they all help to build up a picture of what's going on. I'll guess that Yorkshire Dave will be along soon and suggest a possible stock type. I reckon it's an R stock - I guess could be a Q though.



Finally for this tranche a much better quality photo and we're at Stonebridge Park - the condensing tower in the background confirms it for me. However, the question here is how an Oerlikon Motor Car has been rebuilt with the (at the time) modern livery including the coach side decal, which gives us some thoughts about a likely date. I remember the Oerlikons (just about) in around 1958, but they were being rapidly withdrawn at the time. It appears to be on accommodation bogies and being shunted by a 501 motor car. Any other thoughts?

I wondered if it could be the one which is preserved at York, but the York vehicle is as LNWR, so was this vehicle double restored?


There won't be an edition of this thread tomorrow - I'll be fishing some miles off the coast at Shoreham, and as I'll leave home at 4.30 am and return more than 12 hours later it's very unlikely that I'll be up to processing more pictures, particularly if I actually catch some thing which'll have to be gutted and filleted......

Brian

Enjoy. The forecast is good, though I doubt it extends to the catch...

Best
Simon

oldravendale said:

I'll guess that Yorkshire Dave will be along soon and suggest a possible stock type. I reckon it's an R stock - I guess could be a Q though.

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It's P stock as it's red (R stock is white) and I think this could be on the Uxbridge branch between Harrow and Uxbridge. P stock very rarely if not at all ran to Rickmansworth. R and Q stock were confined to the District Line.

oldravendale said:

However, the question here is how an Oerlikon Motor Car has been rebuilt with the (at the time) modern livery including the coach side decal, which gives us some thoughts about a likely date. I remember the Oerlikons (just about) in around 1958, but they were being rapidly withdrawn at the time. It appears to be on accommodation bogies and being shunted by a 501 motor car. Any other thoughts?

I wondered if it could be the one which is preserved at York, but the York vehicle is as LNWR, so was this vehicle double restored?

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It's not Oerlikon stock it is the later LMS 1926 and 1932 built stock to supplement and run with the Oerlikon stock.

There were three phases of Watford/Richmond/Broad Street stock - LNWR Oerlikon, LMS and BR class 501. The latter replacing the earlier LNWR and LMS stock.

In my opinion this makes the photos even more important (despite the varying quality) as they appear to be recording the demise and replacement of the Oerlikon and latterly the LMS stock.

LMS D1847 Motor Brake Third, London area stock built in 1933 at Wolverton. All withdrawn November 1963. Nos. 28018-28025 from 1933.

I think the GE dmu would be the 125 DMU (no not THAT 125!)

Class 125 DMU

I was wondering if the location might be Thornton Fields carriage sidings?

I could buzz the link to the GE society online forum when you hit 'peak scanning' of the GE images?

Tony

Just been reading GE Society journal No.169 which has an article on the N.E.London electrification. The 4xx EMU's were poor performers at first and were replaced by 'Tilburys' for a time. 'Tilburys' being the 2xx units. This was 1960. Apparently even some Crewe units from the LMR were drafted in.
Tony

Wow!!. Jut home but couldn't miss the opportunity to thank everyone for their input.

Simon - wonderful weather, low winds, four black bream to me (actually six, but I put two back), otherwise, on the same boat, conger eels, the biggest starry hound of the year so far, returned to the water, a lobster (yes, really, on rod and line) which also went back, a plaice, a dab, numerous dogfish and pout whiting, also returned and a starfish. Frabjous day!

Dave - extremely helpful and Larry for additional info. I've had a memory fade - not too unusual nowadays. I wonder whether I did actually see any Oerlikon units as I've clearly confused the two types. I just remember (again, early spotting days) the electric units with manual sliding doors which I think were the Oerlikons, but my belief and memory suggested that the later LMS units didn't have the grills/louvres on the sides of the motor cars but I am clearly wrong. I'll study these photos a bit more carefully. However, that newly outshopped vehicle suggests really early 60s - maybe late 50s - which fits with a lot of the other stuff.

As for P, R and Q stock. I was confident that you'd clarify were we are with these, and you've not disappointed!

Tony - really helpful info. I had a contact with the GE society over another collection and the info I received from them was nothing short of miraculous. Whenever appropriate or of potential interest please pass these on to the GE society for further comment. There may be more to come but I'd not guarantee it. In any event the info on the GE electrification is both fascinating and pertinent.

All in all these pictures are possibly of more interest and value than I'd ever have realised. Let's get them all published on WT and I'll then be interested to see if they are important enough to be preserved in a more widely available collection. I'm now even more sad that the original negatives appear to be lost.

Brian

We didn’t go out, pressure-washed the boat today, then walked around Binic.
Weather northerly breeze, sunny, but very cold. Bit of sea.
Boat much cleaner!
Best
Simon

oldravendale said:

Wow!!. Jut home but couldn't miss the opportunity to thank everyone for their input.

Simon - wonderful weather, low winds, four black bream to me (actually six, but I put two back), otherwise, on the same boat, conger eels, the biggest starry hound of the year so far, returned to the water, a lobster (yes, really, on rod and line) which also went back, a plaice, a dab, numerous dogfish and pout whiting, also returned and a starfish. Frabjous day!

Brian

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That sounds like a good day out,Brian! May I ask which port, you out of?
Bit early for the black bream where I am!

Regards, Deano.

Just caught me before I go to the outside sink to wash all the gear.

We were out of Shoreham, East Sussex, Deano. The only down side is leaving home at 4.30 am! Brilliant skipper with whom I've fished several times previously. He apologised for it being a rather slow day! If you're interested his boat is "She Likes It II" and you'll pick up his web site if you enter that in your favourite search engine.

Brian

oldravendale said:

Just caught me before I go to the outside sink to wash all the gear.

We were out of Shoreham, East Sussex, Deano. The only down side is leaving home at 4.30 am! Brilliant skipper with whom I've fished several times previously. He apologised for it being a rather slow day! If you're interested his boat is "She Likes It II" and you'll pick up his web site if you enter that in your favourite search engine.

Brian

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Thanks, Brian, I wouldn't call that slow!!

Regards, Deano.

oldravendale said:

Firstly pretty much confirmation that the AM2 unit is out on a rail tour, as here it is again. I'm not certain about location though.

View attachment 103984

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Could be Wood Street ? looking Northwards.

Col.