cbrailways
Western Thunderer
Yes. Agreed. Acording to my MET signalling books, J68 is the Down LNER Platform Starting at Harrow. The siding to the left heads into the sub-station compound.
An Unusual Collection
- Thread starter oldravendale
- Start date
Yes. Agreed. Acording to my MET signalling books, J68 is the Down LNER Platform Starting at Harrow. The siding to the left heads into the sub-station compound.
Happy to go with the dating evidence from loco re-numbering.
In the LT Museum photograph collection there is a picture showing a back view the successor signal to J68, with a different role in the layout. It's a 1948 picture: https://images.ltmuseum.co.uk/images/max/rf/i00006rf.jpg
There's picture evidence generally of layout and signalling changes in the Harrow area around 1947. Edit: a bit of midnight oil, looking at drawings, and I'm beginning to favour pre-war, on grounds of the track alignment. No conclusive evidence yet.
Harrow-on-the-Hill new station was open and operational somewhat before the outbreak of war in 1939, don't have an exact date for the station or layout works as yet. Nevertheless this begins to create upper and lower bounds on the date window.
By the way, Harrow Main cabin was still standing in 1948 but signalling had been replaced by then. https://images.ltmuseum.co.uk/images/max/r6/i0000ur6.jpg
In our picture it is hidden by the LNER train.
An image showing the building that's in the hazy distance in the picture: https://images.ltmuseum.co.uk/images/max/tq/i00006tq.jpg
In the LT Museum photograph collection there is a picture showing a back view the successor signal to J68, with a different role in the layout. It's a 1948 picture: https://images.ltmuseum.co.uk/images/max/rf/i00006rf.jpg
There's picture evidence generally of layout and signalling changes in the Harrow area around 1947. Edit: a bit of midnight oil, looking at drawings, and I'm beginning to favour pre-war, on grounds of the track alignment. No conclusive evidence yet.
Harrow-on-the-Hill new station was open and operational somewhat before the outbreak of war in 1939, don't have an exact date for the station or layout works as yet. Nevertheless this begins to create upper and lower bounds on the date window.
By the way, Harrow Main cabin was still standing in 1948 but signalling had been replaced by then. https://images.ltmuseum.co.uk/images/max/r6/i0000ur6.jpg
In our picture it is hidden by the LNER train.
An image showing the building that's in the hazy distance in the picture: https://images.ltmuseum.co.uk/images/max/tq/i00006tq.jpg
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farnetti
Western Thunderer
There used to be a good model shop in the parade under the hoardings as well as another in St. Annes Road not far away.
Ken
Absolutely, agreed, remember them all and visited them quite often during my schooldays. Especially if I caught an early train from Moor Park after school, for the sake of missing one Uxbridge train home I had time to visit one of the shops for a quick browse. Purchases were much less frequent, of course.
On the Harrow picture, have looked at more drawings today and picked the brains of a former colleague. I don't yet have the evidence I really want, on the specific stage dates and sequence for the station, track and signalling works. Potentially useful publications are buried at home somewhere. I'm gradually settling on a guess of about 1939 and I can, eventually, give a rationale for this. I'm actually grateful for the prod to look more closely at Harrow than ever before and out of the question I've learnt more about the station and layout and have changed some of my previous assumptions about the evolution of the area.
On the Harrow picture, have looked at more drawings today and picked the brains of a former colleague. I don't yet have the evidence I really want, on the specific stage dates and sequence for the station, track and signalling works. Potentially useful publications are buried at home somewhere. I'm gradually settling on a guess of about 1939 and I can, eventually, give a rationale for this. I'm actually grateful for the prod to look more closely at Harrow than ever before and out of the question I've learnt more about the station and layout and have changed some of my previous assumptions about the evolution of the area.
cbrailways
Western Thunderer
Well, the signalling drawing I had mentioned above is dated 10 May 1933.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Bloody hell! You go away for a weekend, and all this info comes tumbling in. Thanks everyone.
Mick - It's really helpful for me to understand the info you've give me and provide such graphic photos of a flashover. I've heard of them, of course, but never seen an actual example.
Engineer - I'd not recognised Harrow as the station has changed so much. I'm very familiar with that background image interpreted from the original, though. In particular I remember the shop on the corner as Odeon Radio, as what we'd consider one of the first electronics shops but at the time really advanced electricals. The model shop I remember was pretty much on the bridge to the left of the parade of shops and was an early incarnation of Harrow Model Shop (where I bought several bits for my Trix Twin Railway) which later moved to much larger premises next to the old Granada Cinema.
Everyone else - goodness only knows how I'll add all this to the info on that photo but for sure I'll do so. I never imagined for a moment that such a poor photo would create so much interest and info. As a result I've done some more digging about a possible ID for the loco. I've looked at the locos seen at Neasden and certainly there were some B17s there - I was already aware that B17s worked on the GCR/Met. I've established that on 11th Feb 1934 No 2816 Falloden was seen. Then on 17th Jan 1937 2824 Lumley Castle, 2847 Helmingham Hall and 2856 Leeds United (could the loco in the photo be this one?) Then, on 4th July 1943 No 2851 Derby County. That's the last reference to a B17 I can find.
I also checked Leicester GC and on 14 June 1936 the following were reported: 2848 Arsenal, 2849 Sheffield United, 2853 Huddersfield Town, 2855 Middlesborough and 2856 Leeds United (again). On 19th Feb 1939 No 2851 Derby County was seen.
On the whole I reckon the photo is probably just before the Second World War.
I'll be publishing some more photos very soon. Where I have info I'll publish it as I'm far from certain that these were all taken by Mr Herbert.
Brian
Mick - It's really helpful for me to understand the info you've give me and provide such graphic photos of a flashover. I've heard of them, of course, but never seen an actual example.
Engineer - I'd not recognised Harrow as the station has changed so much. I'm very familiar with that background image interpreted from the original, though. In particular I remember the shop on the corner as Odeon Radio, as what we'd consider one of the first electronics shops but at the time really advanced electricals. The model shop I remember was pretty much on the bridge to the left of the parade of shops and was an early incarnation of Harrow Model Shop (where I bought several bits for my Trix Twin Railway) which later moved to much larger premises next to the old Granada Cinema.
Everyone else - goodness only knows how I'll add all this to the info on that photo but for sure I'll do so. I never imagined for a moment that such a poor photo would create so much interest and info. As a result I've done some more digging about a possible ID for the loco. I've looked at the locos seen at Neasden and certainly there were some B17s there - I was already aware that B17s worked on the GCR/Met. I've established that on 11th Feb 1934 No 2816 Falloden was seen. Then on 17th Jan 1937 2824 Lumley Castle, 2847 Helmingham Hall and 2856 Leeds United (could the loco in the photo be this one?) Then, on 4th July 1943 No 2851 Derby County. That's the last reference to a B17 I can find.
I also checked Leicester GC and on 14 June 1936 the following were reported: 2848 Arsenal, 2849 Sheffield United, 2853 Huddersfield Town, 2855 Middlesborough and 2856 Leeds United (again). On 19th Feb 1939 No 2851 Derby County was seen.
On the whole I reckon the photo is probably just before the Second World War.
I'll be publishing some more photos very soon. Where I have info I'll publish it as I'm far from certain that these were all taken by Mr Herbert.
Brian
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Here are submissions for today.
This image has taken hours of work to tidy it up, remove dirt, sharpen and adjust density and contrast. I've also searched for this image being published previously but without success. There is no info on the original print which helps to identify any copyright owner, hence I'm publishing here. If anyone recognises the image please advise me and I'll take it down.
I know nothing about the likely details of this photo. Could it be of the LBSCR electrification? I reckon there's little to no chance that this was taken by Mr Herbert.
This one has a bit of info and was a much easier prospect to clean up. The print is stamped Peter W Boulding - not a name I know - and I don't know of his relationship with Mr Herbert. The info on the back of the print advises that it's Volks Brighton 4 Oct 61. (Motor of 6). I interpret this to mean that it's the motor of vehicle No 6 of the Volks Electric Railway at Brighton.
Finally for this set a photo which again took huge work to improve from the original print. I believe this is one of the Lancaster - Morecambe - Heysham sets and I've searched the web for this photo without success. Initially I thought this was a pre-war photo but in the background appears to be more modern stock possibly in blood and custard livery which puts it at post-1948. The only info on the print is "Lens spare" - now could this be from the famous Lens of Sutton collection, or alternatively a friend interested in electrical transport, as we believe Mr Herbert may have had a professional interest in electric traction.
Brian
This image has taken hours of work to tidy it up, remove dirt, sharpen and adjust density and contrast. I've also searched for this image being published previously but without success. There is no info on the original print which helps to identify any copyright owner, hence I'm publishing here. If anyone recognises the image please advise me and I'll take it down.
I know nothing about the likely details of this photo. Could it be of the LBSCR electrification? I reckon there's little to no chance that this was taken by Mr Herbert.
This one has a bit of info and was a much easier prospect to clean up. The print is stamped Peter W Boulding - not a name I know - and I don't know of his relationship with Mr Herbert. The info on the back of the print advises that it's Volks Brighton 4 Oct 61. (Motor of 6). I interpret this to mean that it's the motor of vehicle No 6 of the Volks Electric Railway at Brighton.
Finally for this set a photo which again took huge work to improve from the original print. I believe this is one of the Lancaster - Morecambe - Heysham sets and I've searched the web for this photo without success. Initially I thought this was a pre-war photo but in the background appears to be more modern stock possibly in blood and custard livery which puts it at post-1948. The only info on the print is "Lens spare" - now could this be from the famous Lens of Sutton collection, or alternatively a friend interested in electrical transport, as we believe Mr Herbert may have had a professional interest in electric traction.
Brian
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
It is the LBSC electrification and is a South London Lines driving motor. This looks like Peckham Rye car sheds and note the boy in the picture.
This is 'Siemens' stock converted to 6,600V AC overhead in the 1950's and transferred to Lancaster to work the Lancaster - Morecambe - Heysham services. The line was originally electrified by the Midland Railway and it looks like Morecambe station.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Very helpful additional info, Dave. Duly added to the photo data.
Only a single one for today. I've searched for this on line and again have not found it. However the LNWR Society list a photo showing M28265 in the foreground. I've been unable to identify whether it's known by the L & NWR Society. If this is the same photo I'll delete from the thread.
The description I have for this is "Richmond with Broad Street Train". I noted that M28265 is in the foreground.
Brian
Only a single one for today. I've searched for this on line and again have not found it. However the LNWR Society list a photo showing M28265 in the foreground. I've been unable to identify whether it's known by the L & NWR Society. If this is the same photo I'll delete from the thread.
The description I have for this is "Richmond with Broad Street Train". I noted that M28265 is in the foreground.
Brian
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Here's another. Again I've not found this anywhere else. I'll appreciate advice (Dave, Arun?) about the class of surface stock LT train in the above photo and also the class in the one below. The only info I have is "Olympia 8 July 1953." That train looks much, much older though. Strange how memory plays tricks, as I'd have been visiting Olympia around 1953 with my older cousin for various exhibitions and I don't remember the ancient nature of the stock sticking in my mind - perhaps it was typical and what we were used to! The print is stamped on the reverse Peter W Boulding - the same as the one of the Volks Electric Railway motor.
Brian
Brian
A
Arun
Guest
This is a C or D stock train at the rear with three E stock cars leading. They became known as "H" [for Hand Operated Door] stock post-1935 and tended to be used on shuttle services - especially East London Line and the Olympia shuttle. The obvious difference between C, D & E was that the E stock's cab rain strip at the front was the full width of the door rather than just over the cab though there are variations and they had also an elliptical roof. The C&D had a clerestory roof. The H stock was used on the Olympia shuttle until Feb 1958 - I think a couple of the cars survived for a while as depot stores cars but none were preserved.
The leading car is an original driving car. There were several reorganisations and rebuildings where trailers were converted to DMs but the conversions had the O/P/Q38/R type of flush headlamp fittings rather than the lumpy type shown here.
In the upper photo at Richmond, the train is a mixed Q stock train -Q38 leading [no clerestory and flared body] with a Q31 or Q35 trailer following. Interestingly, if you look at the rear set of double doors on the Q38, you will see "non-stopping" indicator boards either side of the doorway.
For Simon's benefit - att is a G23 cab........
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oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks again Arun. That fills in some gaps very nicely!
I always thought the mixed stock on the Q stock trains was surprising. The Q38s were, even into the '60s a "modern" looking design, whereas the Q 31/35s were clearly from a previous generation. LT were not averse to mixing stock though, were they? Even the 1938 stock trains I remember on the Bakerloo incorporated "Standard" stock trailers (on which I always tried to ride).
This next one, which I didn't expect to be done quite now, but other factors intervened, is possibly one of the greatest in the collection, and I believe it's an original by Mr Herbert, possibly taken from a passing train which would account for the camera shake. I wonder - could this be one of the H stock vehicles when in use as a store car to which Arun refers? There's certainly evidence that some of the windows have been boarded over. The vehicle appears to have London transporT on the side. I'm certain that the part which appears to be a corridor connection is more likely another vehicle parked behind. The poor quality of the photo is by far outweighed by the content, IMHO.
I don't remember this at all, although I was old enough to do so. Anyone on WT who has any comments, even if it's just surmise, will be welcome.
The info on the print advises "Ealing Common 6 Aug 62".
Brian
I always thought the mixed stock on the Q stock trains was surprising. The Q38s were, even into the '60s a "modern" looking design, whereas the Q 31/35s were clearly from a previous generation. LT were not averse to mixing stock though, were they? Even the 1938 stock trains I remember on the Bakerloo incorporated "Standard" stock trailers (on which I always tried to ride).
This next one, which I didn't expect to be done quite now, but other factors intervened, is possibly one of the greatest in the collection, and I believe it's an original by Mr Herbert, possibly taken from a passing train which would account for the camera shake. I wonder - could this be one of the H stock vehicles when in use as a store car to which Arun refers? There's certainly evidence that some of the windows have been boarded over. The vehicle appears to have London transporT on the side. I'm certain that the part which appears to be a corridor connection is more likely another vehicle parked behind. The poor quality of the photo is by far outweighed by the content, IMHO.
I don't remember this at all, although I was old enough to do so. Anyone on WT who has any comments, even if it's just surmise, will be welcome.
The info on the print advises "Ealing Common 6 Aug 62".
Brian
76043
Western Thunderer
Looks like more early C to E stock to me, these images are reminding me of the wonderful book of drawings of surface stock published by Ian Allan and the LTM years ago.
The underground really has so much variety during the pre WW2 period, those two Pullman cars are an extra fillip too. So surprising it's not been modelled more. Vine Street Goods near Farringdon would make an excellent small layout, with more action than you could shake a P4 Ashburton clone at.
I've never seen a photo of the Pullman's on the Baker Street to Aldgate section and would love to, as I only go as far back as blue moquette C stock. I did get a ticket on the 150 Met steamer so was almost there, but without the stewards and breakfast.
Tony
The underground really has so much variety during the pre WW2 period, those two Pullman cars are an extra fillip too. So surprising it's not been modelled more. Vine Street Goods near Farringdon would make an excellent small layout, with more action than you could shake a P4 Ashburton clone at.
I've never seen a photo of the Pullman's on the Baker Street to Aldgate section and would love to, as I only go as far back as blue moquette C stock. I did get a ticket on the 150 Met steamer so was almost there, but without the stewards and breakfast.
Tony
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
I would say this is either C or D 1910/13 District Line stock as Arun identified in post #170. What appears to be a corridor connection is the cab end as you can see the drivers windscreen and centre door. I would also suspect the vehicle to the right is E stock based upon.....
.......closer scrutiny. The car on the left has a clerestory (B, C or D) stock but that on the right does not appear to have one. This would identify, as Tony has done so, this car as E stock as it was the first not to have a clerestory.
Given they are languishing in a siding it would be nice to think the car on the left could be the earlier 1905 B stock - but the later variant of.
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Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
The nearest we have of a District 'UndergrounD' coach of this vintage is the sad Met exhibit in the Acton LT Museum which Brian photographed here http://www.westernthunder.co.uk/index.php?attachments/img_20180922_120411532-jpg.92791/
76043
Western Thunderer
As it's got something going on with the windows and full LT branding on it possibly in white or yellow and the body may possibly not be painted red, it would mark it out as some sort of service/engineers stock I would think. De-icer or pilot motor maybe?
Tony
Tony
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A
Arun
Guest
SC637-640 were stores cars modified from C,D & E stock in Jul 1958 so pretty soon after final withdrawal of the "H" stock from the District Line shuttles. 637 was ex-E stock and the other three were 1910-built C/D stock. So quite possibly derived from the very cars in Brian's photograph!
They weren't scrapped until March-July 1963. Regrettably the old standby of "Workhorses of the London Underground" doesn't have any photographs unfortunately but I'm fairly sure that I've seen a photograph of these two cars in an old LURS "Underground News". However, the triple windows in each bay with double ventilators are a giveaway - the C/D/E had these but given that there is a clerestory, the LH car is clearly a C/D stock car. I agree that the RH car is an E stock car in which case it will be SC637.
They weren't scrapped until March-July 1963. Regrettably the old standby of "Workhorses of the London Underground" doesn't have any photographs unfortunately but I'm fairly sure that I've seen a photograph of these two cars in an old LURS "Underground News". However, the triple windows in each bay with double ventilators are a giveaway - the C/D/E had these but given that there is a clerestory, the LH car is clearly a C/D stock car. I agree that the RH car is an E stock car in which case it will be SC637.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Very helpful stuff again, so thanks for all the additional data. Yes, now you mention it, Dave, that photo does look similar to the vehicle I photographed at Acton. If you remember there was no accompanying info so it as difficult to know much about it. I'd like to know the history - how it came to not be scrapped, where it was found etc.
Anyway, to the submission for today, and it's a vehicle we've seen previously in the Olympia photo. This one is identified the same as the previous one - "Olympia 8 July 1953". This is also stamped Peter W Boulding about whom I continue to find nothing.
The photo I'm currently working on must have been bought in, as it's identified as "Metropolitan Railway May 24th 1862" and shows the great and good, all in open trucks endorsed "S & K" who were, I believe, contractors for the line, at Edgware Road Station. Each individual is numbered and a key at the bottom of the photo names each participant. I will not be publishing this photo here as I believe it is a known picture, possibly with copyright implications, and I'm pretty sure I've seen it previously. However, there are a selection of Met photos to follow this one which have no attribution, so I'll publish after they've been cleaned up and await advice in case they are known.
Brian
Anyway, to the submission for today, and it's a vehicle we've seen previously in the Olympia photo. This one is identified the same as the previous one - "Olympia 8 July 1953". This is also stamped Peter W Boulding about whom I continue to find nothing.
The photo I'm currently working on must have been bought in, as it's identified as "Metropolitan Railway May 24th 1862" and shows the great and good, all in open trucks endorsed "S & K" who were, I believe, contractors for the line, at Edgware Road Station. Each individual is numbered and a key at the bottom of the photo names each participant. I will not be publishing this photo here as I believe it is a known picture, possibly with copyright implications, and I'm pretty sure I've seen it previously. However, there are a selection of Met photos to follow this one which have no attribution, so I'll publish after they've been cleaned up and await advice in case they are known.
Brian
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Further to the above...... If you enter "Metropolitan railway May 24th 1862" in to your favourite search engine the picture I'm dealing with now will come up on your screen (along with others), so there's absolutely no point in reproducing it here anyway!
B
B