7mm Finney Battle of Britain
- Thread starter mickoo
- Start date
Martin Finney
Member
I've just caught up with this excellent thread.
I do have one thing to point out. The last forty engines (34071 -34110), as you know, were built with wide cabs to match the wider 5500g tenders.
These cabs were 2" wider at their lower edge and so did not did not match the width of the casing ( which was not widened ) as you found when you built the cab as intended.
You can see this here: Original Bulleid pacifics - MikeMorant
and here: Original Bulleid pacifics - MikeMorant
Regards
Martin
I do have one thing to point out. The last forty engines (34071 -34110), as you know, were built with wide cabs to match the wider 5500g tenders.
These cabs were 2" wider at their lower edge and so did not did not match the width of the casing ( which was not widened ) as you found when you built the cab as intended.
You can see this here: Original Bulleid pacifics - MikeMorant
and here: Original Bulleid pacifics - MikeMorant
Regards
Martin
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Martin,
Thank you,
Well every day is a school day
I did wonder why when everything else was spot on that this bit appeared not to match.
Spurred by your comments and just to make sure I wasn't going barking mad I dug a bit deeper into the photo archives and found that some engines appear to have the base flush and some have the base stepped, as you note.
Stepped.
Flush
Copyright original owners, crops used for indication purposes.
I'd concur that the cab base is wider, but it looks like the plate work in front (covering the pipework) can be fitted so that the lower edge is flush or stepped, depending on the fitters whim I suppose, probably stepped fresh from works, but out on the working sheds could be fitted where ever.
Luckily, I'm representing 110 which appears, in later life, to have a flush base between firebox and cab.
34001 - 34110 West Country and Battle of Britain Pacifics | 34110-ExmouthJunction-0662-RPC387-1
34001 - 34110 West Country and Battle of Britain Pacifics | 34110-ExmouthJunction-0662-RPC387-1
34001 - 34110 West Country and Battle of Britain Pacifics | 34110-ExmouthJunction-0662-RPC387-1
Yet 105 clearly has a stepped base
34001 - 34110 West Country and Battle of Britain Pacifics | 34110-ExmouthJunction-0662-RPC387-1
I'll check through my reference pile of mags and books as well later this evening, but suspect it'll turn up the same results, some stepped, some flush, but it'll be interesting to see how many are different or if I can find photos of the same engine with different panel fitting.
All adding weight to the saying, check your prototype engine.
All the best
Michael
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Build date +43
So, having hacked my perfectly good front and rear cab walls
and assembled it all, it was only fair to check the end result and see if it was all worth it.
If your modeling a wide cab engine whose plate work lines up at the base, then yes I think it's worth the effort, everywhere else the cab metal work lines up perfectly with the resin body, the final proof that everything is formed correctly is the fitting of the windscreens, that'll be tomorrows task as well as all the other details like roof vents, covers and cab interior details.
One good way to see if all of your curves are sound and parallel is to polish the work, or bad way which ever way you feel about it
Overall if you take your time and practice on the spare cabs as the instructions advise then the result will be very nice indeed.
MD
T-12
So, having hacked my perfectly good front and rear cab walls
and assembled it all, it was only fair to check the end result and see if it was all worth it.If your modeling a wide cab engine whose plate work lines up at the base, then yes I think it's worth the effort, everywhere else the cab metal work lines up perfectly with the resin body, the final proof that everything is formed correctly is the fitting of the windscreens, that'll be tomorrows task as well as all the other details like roof vents, covers and cab interior details.
One good way to see if all of your curves are sound and parallel is to polish the work, or bad way which ever way you feel about it
Overall if you take your time and practice on the spare cabs as the instructions advise then the result will be very nice indeed.
MD
T-12
Dikitriki
Flying Squad
bogusman
Western Thunderer
Hi Mick
I got these overlay inserts from CHristopher Makepeace as he re profiled my slater wheels to S7 no doubt if you got in touch with him he would be able to supply you with a set of etches. I will try and take a photo to post before you make up your mind if ICan remember how to do it
Pete
I got these overlay inserts from CHristopher Makepeace as he re profiled my slater wheels to S7 no doubt if you got in touch with him he would be able to supply you with a set of etches. I will try and take a photo to post before you make up your mind if ICan remember how to do it
Pete
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Pete,
Thanks for the info, I think they might have been a limited run and much coveted by those who managed to acquire some
Never the less, it won't take much to whip up some new artwork for myself to fit the Slaters wheels, it wasn't until you mentioned it that I spotted how much recess the Slaters wheels have. If the etches brush up ok then we might add them as an extra like the AWS pack for those that wish to fit them. It's something I'll look into in more detail post Telford.
You asked about which side leads, at York, Winston Churchill was on the turntable and I photographed both sides and can inform you that the right hand crank leads the left hand
MD
Thanks for the info, I think they might have been a limited run and much coveted by those who managed to acquire some
Never the less, it won't take much to whip up some new artwork for myself to fit the Slaters wheels, it wasn't until you mentioned it that I spotted how much recess the Slaters wheels have. If the etches brush up ok then we might add them as an extra like the AWS pack for those that wish to fit them. It's something I'll look into in more detail post Telford.
You asked about which side leads, at York, Winston Churchill was on the turntable and I photographed both sides and can inform you that the right hand crank leads the left hand
MD
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Build date +48
More cab work, last week wasn't good for progress, a few steps forward and a few backward.
I commented earlier about the cab windows and the tops being part of the cab area that curves at cant rail level, looking at photos in detail some engines have flat cab sides fore and aft of the cab windows and some have a slight bow. The cab windows are mounted in a wooden frame that sits inside the sheet work. The kit cab rear wall and front spectacle plate work all have a slight bow, so if you wanted to model an engine with flat sides you'll need to flatted those areas and adjust the side sheet to suit. Some engines have flat sides with a small curve at the top, others curved rear edges but flat where it meets the window frame, it's all down to plate work and fitters at works and depots I suppose.
I'd of been happy just leaving it all as it was with a slight curve front and rear and trying to flatten the area by the cab windows, however, C't'ain cockup and his merry crew had a really wild party around this area so I was left with a bit of a mess, all self inflicted.
The first problem was getting a smooth arc and curve at the cant rail, the open window allows that section of material to bow and the bend becomes un uniform, good skills and craftsmanship can resolve this, both of which deserted me on both sides of the cab. In the end I managed to smooth it all out using a suitable former behind the bend and tapping gently with a wooden file handle to get a constant curve. The second issue came when I annealed the area around the bend, very close to this is the half etched window frame which expanded faster than the surrounding full thickness material and thus bowed out.
I'd spotted the problem soon after finishing the basic cab work but had to wait until the cab windscreen plate work was in place to add strength to the front area ahead of the side windows.
A picture is worth a thousand words so here's 5000 of them. Note, these are really ugly close ups
No matter what I tried the metal frame would not flatten and being part of a detailed area couldn't really be chopped and shut effectively, note also the curving of the sheetwork ahead of the window frame at the cant rail level, resulting in the glazing not sitting flat within the frame.
Biting the bullet the only real solution was to remove the whole window frame and start again, both the 9'-0" and 8'-6" cabs are identical in this area (which they shouldn't be....more later) so it was simply a case of cutting out the frames from the spare 8'-6" cab.
Note again curved sheet work at cant rail level and the more gentle arc at the rear.
New cab window.
The cab side has a half etched rebate around the windows to simulate the installation, by careful cutting and measuring I was able to file right up to the recess but leave it with raised edges both sides.
Trial fitting of new flat window frames.
I'm happy with that, one of the other issues with cutting out the old windscreen is that it comes very close to some etched rivet holes on the rear face and a couple of these have been exposed during cutting back, a little dab of solder and some cleaning up should remove them.
On top I did manage most of the additional bits this week, a sliding ventilator, safety straps and other covers, all very neat, all fitted perfectly and very enjoyable detail work. I've still got the lifting lugs to form and fit and there's a couple of white metal vents to add.
Ok cab windows, there appears to be three types of cab window, the two obvious and well documented types and a third sub variant.
The original order of engines with air smoothed cabs, all 8'-6" wide, had large side windows with two windows. When these were modified with V screen cabs the side window arrangement changed to a smaller opening with three windows fitted. However, when the 9'-0" cabs were built they enlarged the window opening, still with three windows in, but the rear edge was moved backward several inches.
8'-6" air smoothed cab with reduced cab window width, note extra width of rear cab sheet work.
Copyright with original owner, crop shown for information purposes.
Note change in cant rail curve at rear end, large radius to the rear and tighter one by the cab window so as to make the side sheet flat for the full height of the cab window.
Now the 9'-0" air smoothed cab, note reduced sheet work for enlarged window.
Copyright with original owner, crop shown for information purposes.
Note the cant rail curve in the side sheet to the rear of the window and flat window frame within.
Interestingly when air smoothed engines were modified to standard form they all received 9'-0" cabs, however they did not receive the 9'-0" cab side window arrangement, they retained their small openings from the original 8'-6" cab design, one presumes to enable the cab window frames recovered from the original engine rather than have to make new ones.
MD
T-7
More cab work, last week wasn't good for progress, a few steps forward and a few backward.
I commented earlier about the cab windows and the tops being part of the cab area that curves at cant rail level, looking at photos in detail some engines have flat cab sides fore and aft of the cab windows and some have a slight bow. The cab windows are mounted in a wooden frame that sits inside the sheet work. The kit cab rear wall and front spectacle plate work all have a slight bow, so if you wanted to model an engine with flat sides you'll need to flatted those areas and adjust the side sheet to suit. Some engines have flat sides with a small curve at the top, others curved rear edges but flat where it meets the window frame, it's all down to plate work and fitters at works and depots I suppose.
I'd of been happy just leaving it all as it was with a slight curve front and rear and trying to flatten the area by the cab windows, however, C't'ain cockup and his merry crew had a really wild party around this area so I was left with a bit of a mess, all self inflicted.
The first problem was getting a smooth arc and curve at the cant rail, the open window allows that section of material to bow and the bend becomes un uniform, good skills and craftsmanship can resolve this, both of which deserted me on both sides of the cab. In the end I managed to smooth it all out using a suitable former behind the bend and tapping gently with a wooden file handle to get a constant curve. The second issue came when I annealed the area around the bend, very close to this is the half etched window frame which expanded faster than the surrounding full thickness material and thus bowed out.
I'd spotted the problem soon after finishing the basic cab work but had to wait until the cab windscreen plate work was in place to add strength to the front area ahead of the side windows.
A picture is worth a thousand words so here's 5000 of them. Note, these are really ugly close ups
No matter what I tried the metal frame would not flatten and being part of a detailed area couldn't really be chopped and shut effectively, note also the curving of the sheetwork ahead of the window frame at the cant rail level, resulting in the glazing not sitting flat within the frame.
Biting the bullet the only real solution was to remove the whole window frame and start again, both the 9'-0" and 8'-6" cabs are identical in this area (which they shouldn't be....more later) so it was simply a case of cutting out the frames from the spare 8'-6" cab.
Note again curved sheet work at cant rail level and the more gentle arc at the rear.
New cab window.
The cab side has a half etched rebate around the windows to simulate the installation, by careful cutting and measuring I was able to file right up to the recess but leave it with raised edges both sides.
Trial fitting of new flat window frames.
I'm happy with that, one of the other issues with cutting out the old windscreen is that it comes very close to some etched rivet holes on the rear face and a couple of these have been exposed during cutting back, a little dab of solder and some cleaning up should remove them.
On top I did manage most of the additional bits this week, a sliding ventilator, safety straps and other covers, all very neat, all fitted perfectly and very enjoyable detail work. I've still got the lifting lugs to form and fit and there's a couple of white metal vents to add.
Ok cab windows, there appears to be three types of cab window, the two obvious and well documented types and a third sub variant.
The original order of engines with air smoothed cabs, all 8'-6" wide, had large side windows with two windows. When these were modified with V screen cabs the side window arrangement changed to a smaller opening with three windows fitted. However, when the 9'-0" cabs were built they enlarged the window opening, still with three windows in, but the rear edge was moved backward several inches.
8'-6" air smoothed cab with reduced cab window width, note extra width of rear cab sheet work.
Copyright with original owner, crop shown for information purposes.
Note change in cant rail curve at rear end, large radius to the rear and tighter one by the cab window so as to make the side sheet flat for the full height of the cab window.
Now the 9'-0" air smoothed cab, note reduced sheet work for enlarged window.
Copyright with original owner, crop shown for information purposes.
Note the cant rail curve in the side sheet to the rear of the window and flat window frame within.
Interestingly when air smoothed engines were modified to standard form they all received 9'-0" cabs, however they did not receive the 9'-0" cab side window arrangement, they retained their small openings from the original 8'-6" cab design, one presumes to enable the cab window frames recovered from the original engine rather than have to make new ones.
MD
T-7
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Dan Randall
Western Thunderer
Hi Mick
I've just been spring cleaning (in August!), my e-mail inbox and found pictures of Pete's Bullied wheel etches that he'd sent me a few years ago....
Regards
Dan
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Ok,
Having noticed the differences in the cab side sheets, I had a quick whizz in Autocad and rustled up a supplementary etch sheet. It has the smaller window opening, smaller internal window frames and a smaller gutter to suit the 8'-6" cabs with this feature.
As far as I can ascertain this cab sheet suits air smoothed engines 34001 - 34070 modified with 8'-6" V screen cabs.
Caveat, some 8'-6" engines had V cabs fitted very late in the day and may have had the larger openings from the 9'-0" cab, in which case the sheet supplied in the kit will suffice. I'd certainly be interested in any pictorial evidence to show 8'-6" cabs with large openings.
MD
Having noticed the differences in the cab side sheets, I had a quick whizz in Autocad and rustled up a supplementary etch sheet. It has the smaller window opening, smaller internal window frames and a smaller gutter to suit the 8'-6" cabs with this feature.
As far as I can ascertain this cab sheet suits air smoothed engines 34001 - 34070 modified with 8'-6" V screen cabs.
Caveat, some 8'-6" engines had V cabs fitted very late in the day and may have had the larger openings from the 9'-0" cab, in which case the sheet supplied in the kit will suffice. I'd certainly be interested in any pictorial evidence to show 8'-6" cabs with large openings.
MD
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Well, actually, it should
The changes to the artwork only took an hour or so, however, the base artwork was already done. The Bulleid Light Pacific was one of Martins later kits and the artwork is digitized, though not in a format native to Autocad. There's a little work required to recompile it and make it usable in Autocad, nothing to do with the original files, just the conversion.
That took about three days to sort and I had a full set of art work for the whole engine that we could then work on. Anyone who has built one of Martins kits will know that Martin maximizes his space usage very well, the down side to this is that parts are placed and orientated on the artwork where ever they best fit. With three cabs included in the kit this means that all of the relevant parts may not be on one sheet, but spread across several.
I'm more of a Neanderthal and prefer all the parts relevant to a sub structure on one sheet, it's not quite as efficient but does mean that you only need to work and focus on one sheet at a time.
So, taking the above into account, when I embarked on the 1:32 test build I wanted an 8'-6" cab (Winston Churchill, Fighter Command and Spitfire) and rather than send three or even four resized sheets off I took the decision to simply make a new 8'-6" cab sheet, it has all of the major components on required to complete a cab assembly, this was then resized to 1:32, adjustments made for the new material thickness and sent off for printing. The second modified sheet is on it's way back from PPD as we speak and should be on the stand at Telford. Of course with this new found information and checking all three of those engines, all require the new cab sheet, so there will be a V3 anyway.
V1 artwork, V2 has some changes made already to improve details and build.
The 7mm 8'-6" cab sheet then sat on my PC until yesterday morning, obviously adjusting the few items I needed and sending the whole sheet off is not cost effective so it was a simple case to just lift the seven parts off that sheet, make a new one, reorganise the parts to make it space effective and then make ready for printing.
So yes, the supplementary sheet was just a quick whizz in Autocad
MD
john lewsey
Western Thunderer
This is a superb build Mick I'm enjoying the thread enormously
Regards
John
Regards
John
mickoo
Western Thunderer
A quick break from the work bench for another dabble in Autocad.
A couple of people asked if there was a chance of some different deflectors, so after a rummage through the books I've found these, I need the standard Devon Belle one for Winston Churchill but the others are the two longer types fitted for the 1948 locomotive exchanges on engines 34005 and 34006, one with Devon Belle clips and one without, I still need to add the enlarged ladders, that'll be after supper and another couple of hours at the bench.
I'll check with the recipient on the rivet placings for the exchange engines, they should be correct but the pattern changed a little at the rear end over the years.
You could of course just etch the Devon Belle clips and solder them on the kit standard deflectors, or just use some strip metal. But you know what, for the extra cost it takes to add them to the extended deflector etch and the mess you have to clean up, and the effort to get them straight, and in the right place....it's a money well spent in my books.
MD
A couple of people asked if there was a chance of some different deflectors, so after a rummage through the books I've found these, I need the standard Devon Belle one for Winston Churchill but the others are the two longer types fitted for the 1948 locomotive exchanges on engines 34005 and 34006, one with Devon Belle clips and one without, I still need to add the enlarged ladders, that'll be after supper and another couple of hours at the bench.
I'll check with the recipient on the rivet placings for the exchange engines, they should be correct but the pattern changed a little at the rear end over the years.
You could of course just etch the Devon Belle clips and solder them on the kit standard deflectors, or just use some strip metal. But you know what, for the extra cost it takes to add them to the extended deflector etch and the mess you have to clean up, and the effort to get them straight, and in the right place....it's a money well spent in my books.
MD
mickoo
Western Thunderer
JB,
They were fitted to aid smoke clearing, didn't work mind, pretty well nothing did if the records are to be believed, the only one that cleared smoke well was the Geisel fitted engine according to reports.
None of the extend deflector engines worked on the GE as far as I can tell I'm afraid.
34004 (same as 34006 deflector) worked on the Scottish region; Inverness - Perth
34005 worked on the London Midland Region; St Pancras - Manchester Central
34006 Worked on the Western and Eastern; Bristol - Plymouth and Marylebone - Manchester.
The GE had two visits, first was 34059 (standard deflector) for trials in 49 but the Britannia's were on their way and Stratford sent it back preferring a real engines.
Head office tried again in May 1951 and sent over three engines.
34039 (Standard deflector)
34057 (Devon Belle deflector)
34065 (Standard deflector)
All three engines worked Liverpool Street to Cambridge, Norwich and Parkeston turns. They came in handy when the Britannia's were stopped and the BR(S) strengthened the contingent by sending two more over.
34076 (Standard deflector)
34089 (Standard deflector)
All returned once enough Britannia's had been repaired by May 52. However I do have one photo of 34057 at Ipswich in 1954 and not on a special turn, unless it was a footex, so either the date is wrong or they were used again but details unknown.
MD
They were fitted to aid smoke clearing, didn't work mind, pretty well nothing did if the records are to be believed, the only one that cleared smoke well was the Geisel fitted engine according to reports.
None of the extend deflector engines worked on the GE as far as I can tell I'm afraid.
34004 (same as 34006 deflector) worked on the Scottish region; Inverness - Perth
34005 worked on the London Midland Region; St Pancras - Manchester Central
34006 Worked on the Western and Eastern; Bristol - Plymouth and Marylebone - Manchester.
The GE had two visits, first was 34059 (standard deflector) for trials in 49 but the Britannia's were on their way and Stratford sent it back preferring a real engines.
Head office tried again in May 1951 and sent over three engines.
34039 (Standard deflector)
34057 (Devon Belle deflector)
34065 (Standard deflector)
All three engines worked Liverpool Street to Cambridge, Norwich and Parkeston turns. They came in handy when the Britannia's were stopped and the BR(S) strengthened the contingent by sending two more over.
34076 (Standard deflector)
34089 (Standard deflector)
All returned once enough Britannia's had been repaired by May 52. However I do have one photo of 34057 at Ipswich in 1954 and not on a special turn, unless it was a footex, so either the date is wrong or they were used again but details unknown.
MD