16xx Pannier - smaller and .....

Overseer

Western Thunderer
I hold WT totally responsible for this diversion into scattergun modelling. Well maybe not totally, but it has lead me astray. The challenge of making the bunker shape has proved irresistible hence the decision to build a model of 1646 or 1649 as they appeared in Scotland. The last pannier, and the last Western loco, I made was a Wills white metal OO kit in about 1980 - not very inspiring. So I am far from being knowledgeable on the subject of pannier tanks. I recently bought the 16xx Pannier Papers book with plenty of useful photos. Remembering that Cyril Freezer's GW loco drawing book had a drawing of a 16xx I thought that might be enough to scratchbuild a model but then compared the drawing to the photos. Then I realised Warren Shephard sells kits and etches at a reasonable price, and an email or two and a week later I have a set of etches for a 16xx with the intention to use what I can to build a Scale7 model.

Now the reason for revealing this half baked plan now is to ask for assistance and advice. Is a GA available or published? What was the corner radius of the pannier tanks? It is sharper than the earlier locos but how much sharper? What size were all the funny little hatches with knobs on the tank top, or really in the sheeting over the boiler? What wheels do people use? Slaters don't seem to do the correct 12 spoke 4' 1 1/2" crank pin between spoke wheels, the closest seem to be the 4' 1904 GW rail motor wheels but the crank throw is a bit short, or the 850 class 12 spoke wheels but they are pin in line.

Don't expect rapid, or much, progress on this one for a while, but I do want to see if I can build a cab and bunker that looks like the real ones as a start.
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
I have checked the GWRJ on-line index and there is no frame plan for this class so looks like a session with the NRM Search Engine. The GWRJ does include several arrangements for other tank engines, for example:- 5700, 5400, 4800 and those may provide assistance with fittings (such as on tank tops).
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
I did have a search through the online NRM PDF list of GWR drawings but only found 4 or 5 references and they all seemed to be proposals rather than as built. Maybe the drawings are amongst BR ones. More searching required I think.
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
I did have a search through the online NRM PDF list of GWR drawings but only found 4 or 5 references and they all seemed to be proposals rather than as built. Maybe the drawings are amongst BR ones.
An interesting question. The class build started 1949 so maybe the drawings were entered into the Drawing Register after nationalisation... if the drawings were allocated numbers which continued from the GWR numbers then I am bemused as to why the drawings do not show under GWR. You might try the BR numbering just to check that what you want has not been included in the SL/SW/--- series.
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
Thank you!!!! :) :thumbs: ;) :D
I don't mind being lead astray every so often but I was hoping for this one not to require too much time consuming research as the intention was to have a go at making some shapes I wouldn't otherwise need to make. It seems that the 16xx is a bit of an orphan, built too late to be Great Western and too traditional to really be shiny new Western Region.

If anyone comes across 1638 in their travels I would appreciate some photographs of the tank tops, in particular, and inside the cab so I can at least try to get the details right.
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
Interestingly, 1638 seems to live at my "local" heritage line, the Kent & East Sussex.

http://www.kesr.org.uk/stock-register/steam-locomotives/16xx-class-0-6-0pt-no-1638

Sounds like a useful excuse for another visit.
Thanks Heather. It would be good if you could, but no rush. Could you also point the camera up between a tank and the boiler? I presume the bottom inner edge of the tanks are straight but the filler seems to be inboard of the tank so there must be a bulge in the middle for the filler, not that you would ever see it on a model but the gap between the tank and the boiler would be just about visible.
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
I do not know about the 16xx specifically, the majority of tanks for GWR tank engines are shaped on the inside to a greater or lesser degree - often with a cover strip over the "gap" between top of tank and boiler.
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
I don't know if it helps any, but yesterday I searched Flickr for images of 1638. I used the search term "Pannier 1638".

There are lots of images of this one engine. Some of them are useful from a general modelling perspective. What intrigued me was the top of the boiler and tanks is almost totally flat. It's very difficult to actually see the join, as it were. Compare that to the 57xx I'm currently building, and the boiler is slightly proud of the tank tops.
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
It looks as though 1638 spent the weekend on the North Norfolk Railway, not sure how long it is there for.

On the 16xx the top of the smokebox is level with the top of the tanks so the boiler top is well below the flat cover between the tank tops, and there are none of the top feed pipes etc on display. I haven't seen a 7mm model 16xx with the plate work and details modelled, but would like to. Also the top of the smokebox should be visible with its rivets and there seems to be a pair of separate plates either side of the chimney base but I haven't worked out how to model that area yet.
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
4 1/2 years on and no metal has been cut. But I did catch up with 1638 during a flying visit a couple of weeks ago so now have more idea what the top of the tanks looks like. I am working on a drawing, still haven't seen a GA though. NRM Swindon drawing list has a probable GA but as it is not titled it is probably not the final as built version. It would be useful to know what it looks like if anyone has time while in York.

I will post the photos I took at Rolvenden in case anyone else is building a 16xx pannier.

Spotted from the train, 1638 had been in steam the day before and was receiving some attention -
1638  IMG_5582.JPG
By the time I got back to Rolvenden a strange looking blue converted Austerity had been parked in front of 1638.
1638  IMG_5607.JPG
Fortunately the engineering staff were very helpful and provided escorted access, and a set of steps to reach the top of the tanks.
1638  IMG_5609.JPG 1638  IMG_5610.JPG 1638  IMG_5611.JPG 1638  IMG_5612.JPG 1638  IMG_5613.JPG 1638  IMG_5614.JPG 1638  IMG_5615.JPG 1638  IMG_5616.JPG 1638  IMG_5617.JPG 1638  IMG_5618.JPG 1638  IMG_5619.JPG 1638  IMG_5620.JPG

More to follow in another post.
 
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LarryG

Western Thunderer
A shame this project seems to have stalled. But I must say the series of photos will be very useful when I get a 16XX. Interesting that the radius of the tank corners might be different from in steam days. This could impact on a RTR model scanned from the preserved loco.
 
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JohnG

Active Member
The GA is available in the NRM without doubt, I personally viewed it there about 3 years ago.

John
 

AJC

Western Thunderer
The GA is available in the NRM without doubt, I personally viewed it there about 3 years ago.

John

Excellent - I take it the drawing you (and Fraser, for that matter, noting his questions about how what is in that drawing compares to what's in the pictures further up the thread) are referring to is no. 126011 (roll no. 215) on this list:

https://www.railwaymuseum.org.uk/sites/default/files/2018-03/Swindon Locomotive Drawings List.pdf

We modellers are notoriously bad at citing our sources, so I just want to check we're talking about the same thing!

Adam
 

JohnG

Active Member
Excellent - I take it the drawing you (and Fraser, for that matter, noting his questions about how what is in that drawing compares to what's in the pictures further up the thread) are referring to is no. 126011 (roll no. 215) on this list:

https://www.railwaymuseum.org.uk/sites/default/files/2018-03/Swindon Locomotive Drawings List.pdf

We modellers are notoriously bad at citing our sources, so I just want to check we're talking about the same thing!

Adam

Hi Adam,

I will have to look at the email request I gave the NRM, I took some photos of the drawing (with permission) it is titled B.R - W.R, Erecting plan, Swindon, May, 1948. The drawing number is cut by the photo, first number 12!, so we are in the ball park.

You can get it copied. it takes about six weeks from memory, or you can book the reading room and look at the originals.

John.
 
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Overseer

Western Thunderer
The stars are taking a long time to align for this one. It was meant to be a relatively quick build as a contrast to my 1870s Highland Railway models and the Dornoch branch train is ideal for a minimum space layout. It is getting closer, although I am still in two minds whether I can live with the 850 class wheels even with David White's assurance that nobody will know the difference. The 16xx kit is probably buildable but will not look like a 16xx when built. Frames that have wheel centre distances which do not match the available milled coupling rods is not a good start. I am happy to scratchbuild, actually I prefer to, but like to get things as accurate as possible even if there is some detail missing due to lack of information. Basically I aim to build to a standard that is at least as good as any ready to run model will be so I won't feel the need to replace a model when a rtr version becomes available.

A very helpful Western Thunderer, who lives a lot closer to York than I do, has offered to look for the drawings next time he is at the NRM.
 
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