A West Midlands Works

Discussion in 'Area 51' started by Scanlon, 29 August 2014.

  1. Ian@StEnochs

    Ian@StEnochs Western Thunderer

    I am watching your 77xxx with interest. They were quite a common sight when I was a schoolboy spotter so on my ‘nostalgia’ list. I have a couple of these kits in stock but have only looked at them so far. I knew that there were some ‘issues’ with the kit when I got them but nothing which cannot be overcome. I like to have a decent drawing before starting but so far I have not been able to source one. Have you got a GA? If so can you point me in the direction of the source please?

  2. Scanlon

    Scanlon Western Thunderer

    Hi Ian,
    Like you I have not been able to find a suitable GA for this class and am working as far as possible from photographs. I am using both the Ted
    Talbot books on the BR Standards, the Bradford Barton volume 2 on BR Standards in Close Up, Steam's Lament on the 4-6-0's and Moguls and the Power of the BR Standard 2-6-0's. The latter being especially good.

    I have good memories of these locos as my paternal family lived SW of Glasgow and saw quite a few of them on the old GSWR network, then of course 77014 spent its final days on the Southern. Not a favorite class of mine but they were distinctive.
  3. Dave Holt

    Dave Holt Western Thunderer

    I don't know for certain, but I would expect the GA and Pipe & Rod drawings to be available from the NRM, probably as downloads, at a price.
  4. Ian@StEnochs

    Ian@StEnochs Western Thunderer

    Hi Roger,

    I have the same books plus quite a few individual photographs of my local examples.

    Last time I was in York I checked what drawings they could supply but the best I could get was a copy of a weight diagram which was part of the OPC collection on michrofiche. I already had a copy which appeared in MRC a long time ago. There may be more there but it’s not an easy job finding just what they have.

    There was a group set up to build a full size replica but I think it has disappeared although there is a thriving group building a tank version on the Severn Valley. They may have access to drawings of the tender version.

  5. Scanlon

    Scanlon Western Thunderer

    Hi Ian,
    I'm at the SVR tomorrow and will ask if they have any drawings, you never know.
    Ian@StEnochs likes this.
  6. Scanlon

    Scanlon Western Thunderer

    Recent work has concentrated on the tender with a view to completing it as far as possible. My customer asked for full brake gear to be installed and the rudimentary brake gear has been replaced with a set of Ragstone castings. The inner frames as built had a number of faults which had to be rectified before the brakes could be installed. New fixing points to the tender body had to be put in and the frame for the brake actuator shaft taken out and put in the correct position. At one time consideration was given to installing the DJB inner frame but it proved to be impractical.
    Tender frames 170720.JPG
    The hangers and brake blocks are cast whitemetal whereas the stretchers and pull rods are lost wax. Everything went together well although the brake blocks are a little further away from the wheels than I would have liked. Fortunately 95% of the brakes are completely hidden by the outside frames! Wiper pick-ups have been installed on all 6 wheels. This has lead to a slight problem with the brake pull rods which are perilously close to the pick-ups. I intend to line the sections around the pick-up areas with heat shrink. The front of the tender has been detailed and cleaning up has started.
    Tender 10 170720.JPG
    Now back to the engine.Before I could put the boiler into the frames I detailed the underside of the running plate with all its supports. I felt sure trying to get them in place after the boiler was inserted would be too difficult. Washout plugs were then soldered into the holes in the boiler. BR plugs are flush with the inside of the cladding and I have yet to file them down.

    DJB fireboxes always leave a lot to be desired and this one was no different. I think the etch was meant for the 76XXX as it was much too big. I marked up the centres of the etches and the big casting for the front of the firebox. A trial fold on one side showed the mudhole doors would be far too low, by about 1.5mm. The main etch was then marked up on the inside to show the centreline and the position of the holes for the safety valves and manifold and then cut in half along the centre line of the firebox. Quite a bit of dressing of the edges was required and I measure the length of each "half" to get them equal. They were tacked together having lined up my earlier markings and tried on the casting and rear etch adjacent to the cab.

    Once satisfied I strengthened the new joint on the inside with scrap etch and marked and drilled the holes for the fittings mentioned earlier. Using clamps to keep everything in place it was soldered up. The lower sides were relatively easy to form around the rear etch and casting. These photos show the boiler in place.
    Boiler 1 170720.JPG
    Bolier 2 170720.JPG
    At the moment the join between boiler and firebox is just a push fit and looking at the upper photo the whole unit appears to need to move slightly to the firemans side. At the front end the smokebox sits properly on the saddle although the rear edge of the saddle needs to be trimmed. Detailing of the firebox and final adjustments are to follow but for now the model is starting to look like a 77XXX.
    Loco 3 170720.JPG
  7. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    You need;

    Two part drawing side elevation & plan Pipe & Rod class 4 2-6-0.

    Two part drawing sections Pipe & Rod class 4 2-6-0.

    SL-DN-P-134 1954
    SL-DN-P-135 1955
    General arrangement.

    Available from NRM and probably on microfiche as well.

    For completeness,
    SL = Standard Loco.
    DN = Doncaster, others being BR (Brighton) DE (Derby) SW (Swindon).
    P = Pipe & Rod, after 1948...ish General Arrangement (GA) drawings were superseded with simplified Pipe & Rod drawings.....generally.

    The 'P' annotation is a Doncaster convention carried over from LNER days where all P drawings are GA/P&R for freight engines and Q is GA/P&R for express engines. In BR days the Q was dropped from the GA/P&R and became a hotch potch mix of odds and sods for warning signs, labels, painting diagrams. All GA/P&R was grouped into P.

    The revised 'modern image' NRM site makes it very hard....I've not found them yet....to find the old drawings list pdf's they used to host, fortunately I downloaded (hoovered) them all before the web site was upgraded; well all the ones that interested me at the time which was basically everything post 1948 really.
  8. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    Cor!! How on earth did you do that?

  9. Steph Dale

    Steph Dale Western Thunderer

    Well done Mick - I hadn't had the chance to check the lists... :thumbs:

  10. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    I just know....stuff.

    My mind is full of stuff, sometimes, something useful floats to the surface :p
    dibateg and Len Cattley like this.
  11. Richard Spoors

    Richard Spoors Western Thunderer

    No wonder I find it harder searching for drawings on the NRM website today compared to 5 or 6 years ago. However, my Excel spreadsheet shows P122 and P123 as a 76xxx and P134 and P135 are missing altogether!
    mickoo likes this.
  12. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Indeed, much of the old stuff seems to have been removed. They used to have Excel sheets but I think they went to pdf later and it's those I've hoovered up, some are eight years old and there must be additions since then, but then maybe not?

    Interesting, 76xxx is a class three and they were not built at Doncaster but Swindon.

    Logically those drawings would be held under SL/SW.... and thus if we look at the NRM lists we find SL/SW/541 class 3 2-6-0 General Arrangement 17-06-54.

    We also find SL/SW/536 Pipe arrangement elevation and plan and SL/SW/537 Pipe arrangement sections.
    Richard Spoors likes this.
  13. Richard Spoors

    Richard Spoors Western Thunderer

    I think the class was designed at Doncaster, which is why they held a GA drawing.
  14. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Well they can't of been designed at Swindon, they have real domes :p
    Richard Spoors and adrian like this.
  15. JimG

    JimG Western Thunderer

    Just in case it helps, I still have the original NRM spreadsheet of the OPC Microfiche lists. I've also added my own selection from the list which deals with Caledonian locos and rolling stock which the late Jim MacIntosh of the Caledonian Railway Association augmented with further details like dates and building batch numbers.


    Attached Files:

  16. Scanlon

    Scanlon Western Thunderer

    Work on the 77XXX is progressing but I will not be posting anything more on this build. Suffice to say this is a terrible kit and my customer has been kept fully up to date on developments. This photo shows the issue with the cylinders which are decidedly bandy legged.
    Loco 9a 300720.jpg
    I had to give my customer the option of cylinders in the correct position on the frames but no wheels, alternatively wheels and rods with widely spaced cylinders. I have been instructed to complete the build and detailing is progressing using a mixture of original DJB and Ragstone castings.

    In order to calm my nerves I am building my second Schools alongside the Standard. I will not be going into great detail on the build mainly because elsewhere on Western Thunder Lancastrian is describing his build of two locos from this class but from the David Andrews kit.

    Three years ago I built 30915 Brighton from the David Andrews kit but now I'm building 30908 Westminster from the Northstar kit sold by Gladiator. Work has started on the tender and has reached this stage after about five days work. The middle axle in the inner frames have been left "floating" to allow for any track deficiencies.
    Tender 2 040820.JPG
    Photos of 30908 have been hard to come by but fortunately a friend has sent me this shot of the loco at Ashford a week after its overhaul in 1956 and freshly painted in BR lined green.
    The tender fitted to Westminster was from a King Arthur and the steps on the front of the tender are different to those provided in the kit. I will be modifying the etches in the next few days.
    2-Bil, Lancastrian and dibateg like this.
  17. daifly

    daifly Western Thunderer

    A couple from eBay:
  18. Scanlon

    Scanlon Western Thunderer

    Thanks Dave, the last photo could almost be a colour shot of the one I posted.
  19. Lancastrian

    Lancastrian Western Thunderer


    I'm currently building 30908 "Westminster" as well ! Don't modify the footsteps, I have a spare set from a David Andrews kit for 30924 "Haileybury" you can have.

  20. Overseer

    Overseer Western Thunderer

    It looks colourised to me. What colour was the loco in your photo? It doesn't look like black because the inner lining is darker than the main colour. The lining is not standard mixed traffic lining either. It is not a topic I know anything about but did the Southern Region test new liveries, or is it green with lining and cycling lion added? The other colour photo is definitely after a repaint in black with larger numbers and 'correct' lining.