2mm Adrian's 2mm workbench.

Discussion in '2mm Lounge' started by adrian, 15 April 2015.

  1. adrian

    adrian Flying Squad

    So my 2mm adventure is launched - having been very impressed with the various 2mmFS contributions on the forum I decided this was an opportunity to get a small shelf layout started - hopefully I will have some progress to report soon on Holywell Town.

    In the meantime I seem to remember a request to post something on the motive power and rolling stock.

    I started with a couple of wagon kits from the 2mmFS Association just as a taster to see if I could cope with the smaller scale.

    They went together very nicely but I was just waiting for a couple of bits to finish them off. The Association has just released a new range of buffers in lost wax brass which has enabled me to finish off the first 2 wagons. Adding handrails and lamp-irons to the brake van was entertaining. Now just need couplings and painting to finish.

    P4120045.png wt - 2 (2).jpg wt - 3 (1).jpg
    Final one for comparison - I just happened to have a Slaters 7mm brake van for comparison.
    wt - 1 (1).jpg

    So onto motive power - although Holywell Town was a LNWR branchlike to my knowledge it never saw a rail motor. However Worsley Works produce a 2mm etching for the LNWR rail motor and so this seemed like a good start in producing some 2mmFS motive power. The first thing was to produce a motor bogie, on the real thing the boiler was a horizontal unit so the idea was to produce a motor bogie with the motor in the same orientation and place as the boiler. Inspired by @Nigel Cliffe 's article on a diesel shunter I bought some thin copper clad and set about filing a few lumps of brass square bar. A small motor and pulleys from Nigel Lawton and wheels and gears from the association resulted in this.

    models - 1.jpg P3080036.png P3140040.png P4120078.png models - 2 (2).jpg

    So it all looks very nice but it doesn't run!! The motor is not strong enough to spin the gears. Having chatted with @queensquare at York I have a few options to try to get motion. First is to remove one of the worm gears from the shaft and rely on the coupling rods for drive. The next option is to fix the motor mount on the chassis rather than hanging it off the layshaft which will remove another bearing surface. The final option would be getting a bigger motor. There probably is room for a larger motor, I'll just have to stick the chimney and dome directly on top of the motor!!

    Anyway that's all for now - if I can get this motor bogie running then I'll have an incentive to get the bodywork moving.
    Last edited: 8 August 2015
  2. Alex Duckworth

    Alex Duckworth Active Member

    Hello Adrian,
    very nice models, the brake van is excellent. I would also advise taking the motor mount off the layshaft and replacing the layshaft plain bearings with ball bearings, those small motors don't have much torque and it's really important to minimise friction at the layshaft stage. Also check that the drive belt isn't too taut. Welcome to 2mm - it's addictive.

  3. Nigel Cliffe

    Nigel Cliffe Western Thunderer

    I'd go with Jerry's recommendation to remove one worm. And, if I could, I'd drop the belt drive and use spur gears. The belt is a difficult one to get the tension right, if you look at any of Nigel Lawton's demonstration 00-9 models, he has a spring to move the motor to the required tension.

    And, to be honest, tiddly little locos are really hard due to the friction issues. A bigger prototype is a lot easier !

    - Nigel
    Stumpytrain likes this.
  4. adrian

    adrian Flying Squad

    Thanks for the suggestions - I have a range of belts so will experiment when I remove the extra worm wheel.

    I did try to sketch out an arrangement with spurs gears similar to your shunter but I struggled to get a design to fit. From the bogie pivot point to the end bulkhead of the rail motor is 9' 6" - so I had to squeeze the top bit into less than 19mm. Anything I drew out with spur gears ended up over the pivot point.

    Screen Shot 2015-04-15 at 21.29.38.png

    So for obvious reasons I would like to get it working similar to this arrangement. If I can't then I think my two alternatives are to either draw up a spur gear arrangement which goes over the top of the pivot point or have the motor in the middle of the rail motor and use a couple of U.J.s and drive shaft to the bogie drive shaft.

    These are the etchings for the rail motor floor. As you can see even with this arrangement there is not a lot of room to the front bulkhead. Even in this arrangement I will have to rejig the motor clamp to save space.

    When I have folded the side rails and soldered up to strengthen the floor then I will remove the floor underneath the motor. On the full size rail motor this was all clear so they could open the end doors and wheel out the power unit without lifting the body.


    Thanks for that , I have noticed this plus a certain element of fun with it.
  5. Nigel Cliffe

    Nigel Cliffe Western Thunderer

    I'd be tempted to re-think the design. Move the motor and its shaft to inside the coach body. If staying with belt drive, then the upper shaft is on the body line, and the bogie pivot should be OK with the belt (its not perfect, but should work). Alternatively (and needed for gears), the upper shaft is on the bogie, then needs a pair of universal joints to the motor in the coach.

    Very small motors have almost no torque, a small increase in motor size usually results in a dramatic increase in torque.

    - Nigel
  6. Overseer

    Overseer Western Thunderer

    Adrian, I have used similar rubber band drives on a couple of small HO locos. They work but tend to have problems with the belts taking on a non circular shape when stored for some time between uses. They also seem to stretch so there is slipping after they are a year or so old. You really need to have the pulleys on the end of the shafts so you can replace the belts easily without dismantling the whole mechanism.
  7. adrian

    adrian Flying Squad

    A quick update - thanks everyone for the feedback. I have been rebuilding the motor bogie and as soon as I work out how to fix the motor I'll post an update on my progress, hopefully with some positive news.

    This posting is for the wagons. I have finally managed to get my spray booth and airbrush sorted in the loft so I have started practising with a few test pieces. The first items being the couple of 2mm wagons I have built. In 7mm I was able to hold the wagons whilst painting but in 2mm it's slightly different. I saw this idea over on RMWeb recently and I adopted for my painting. I made a wooden block with a series of holes to hold the brass rod, I soldered a couple of bolts on some and tapped others 12BA to hold the bits for painting.

    The wagons are screwed together so they fitted on the sprues quite nicely. These now have a coat of Precision 2-pack etch primer on. Next job will be black for the underframes and grey for the bodies. Not too sure on the colours, I think the LNWR grey (box van) should be darker than the Midland (Brake Van) but there seemed to be a great variation on wagon stock so as long as they are different I think it will blend in once I finish off some of the other kits on the workbench.
    Last edited: 29 July 2015
  8. Ian Smith

    Ian Smith Western Thunderer

    Very smart! I always attach my 2mm stuff onto the end of a bamboo skewer either with a blob of blu-tak or if the item is a little heavier and seems like it's going to fall off I use a small blob of thick super glue which allows the skewer to be snapped away again at the end of the painting session (when all is dry). As an aside, I always put tiny little bits of blu-tak in/over the axle bearing cups before spraying to prevent them getting clogged up with paint. If left in for a couple of days it can be a bit of a pain to remove it properly though once the paint has fully hardened over it, but repeated dating with more blu-tak tends to get it all removed in the end.
  9. adrian

    adrian Flying Squad

    Painting has gone well for my first attempt with cellulose - now trying to get suitable transfers for the wagons to finish them off.

    Meanwhile I have switched back to the rail motor. First off the power bogie - I'd like to say this is Mk.2 but it's more like the 4th or 5th. version. So following the previous suggestions there is only drive to one axle now, the drive shaft has now got miniature ball races fitted and I've gone for a bigger motor. It's actually the 10mm from Nigel Lawton as it's only 12mm in length and will just fit in. The 8mm motor at 16mm in length is just that bit too long.
    After a bit of playing around with different engine clamps and drive belt sizes I finally got something working.
    Now that I was happy the motor unit was working I could finally turn to the rest of the model. These are the etchings as supplied from Worsley Works.
    So the first bit was to solder on the solebars, this was done on a glass plate to try to keep it as flat as possible.
    The next stage was to form the curve in the cab end plates. I thought I ought to have a practice first so on a bit of scrap sheet, a nice lump of 5/8" brass bar rolled across it on the cutting board. It seemed to work ok so I pressed on with doing the cab ends.
    Once that was done it was then on to forming the tumblehome on the coach sides. I left the etches in the supporting frame as there is a cutout in the middle of the sides for a recessed doorway to be soldered in once the sides have been curved. The supporting frame is keeping the 2 halves aligned - so they are formed attached to the frame. I can then solder in the door etchings before removing them from the frame.
    So the next decision is what to do about the roof. i.e. solder the sides to the underframe and work out how to clip the roof on, or solder the roof to the sides and work out how to bolt the body onto the underframe. At the moment I'm favouring the latter route so I'll have a go and see if I can form a roof from a bit of nickel-silver sheet.
    Last edited: 29 July 2015
  10. queensquare

    queensquare Western Thunderer

    Looking good Adrian, that's going to be a really attractive vehicle when it's finished. Go with the fixed roof, bolted underframe option - that's the way Worsley coaches are designed. There are holes etched either end of the floor and the rectangular bits to the left of your picture with the fold up ears and etched hole go in the body ends.
    I've built a fair few Worsley coaches and like them, they are cheap and fairly basic but provide all the tricky bits. They are designed to be built in basically the same way as a Comet coach.
    There is a very useful article on coach building in general by John Aldrick in the latest 2mm mag, for those that aren't already a member, forms are available on the website!

    Cheers Jerry
    Stumpytrain likes this.
  11. Ian Smith

    Ian Smith Western Thunderer

    Looking really nice Adrian. I'd rather like a GWR Steam Railmotor but I'm afraid that the walschaerts knitting on the driven end puts me off somewhat!

    regards, Ian
  12. john lewsey

    john lewsey Western Thunderer

    This is looking really nice Adrian
  13. adrian

    adrian Flying Squad

    Thanks for that - I was wondering what they were for - I was trying to work out the various fold lines and what sort of shape I would end up with. It didn't help that the ends on the rail motor has quite a pronounced bow and didn't seem to match the etchings. Also the non-powered end is noticeably narrower and the etching supplied is too wide to fit. Finally if it is fitted then it would seal up the non powered end and I wouldn't be able to get any glazing in after painting.
    I have got the magazine but only got up to the Loch article. In fact looking through the coach building article it has the etches in question shown in figure 5!

    Anyway following a request from @john lewsey a quick photo build of the MR brake van shown at the beginning of this thread.

    I had been given in the past a Slaters 7mm 10T brake van so I had something to work from - this shows the Slaters version with the 2mm etches infront of it.
    MR_brake_ - 1.jpg

    I started by separating out the various body etchings and overlays to sort out what went where.
    MR_brake_ - 2.jpg

    I then folded up each end. The photo I was using showed widows in the doors so these were cut out in the etches.
    MR_brake_ - 3.jpg

    The buffer beam overlays were lined up using a couple of cocktail sticks.
    MR_brake_ - 4.jpg

    The inside angles were soldered in and a 10BA nut soldered in place for bolting the chassis in later on. The sides were then tacked in position.
    MR_brake_ - 5.jpg

    Attention then turned to the chassis.
    MR_brake_ - 6.jpg

    The chassis was folded up and the overlays for the springs soldered on, brass wheel bearings helped to locate the overlays. The axle box covers are folded up. On the chassis the left-hand box has been fitted, in front it shows the stages in making the covers - on the left is the etch as supplied, in the middle the etch has been folded over and soldered, on the right the cover has been cleaned up and the fold tab has been filed off. There is just of the wheel bearing protruding to locate the cover.
    MR_brake_ - 7.jpg

    Then all the brake gear is folded up and slot into the chassis.
    MR_brake_ - 8.jpg

    Next was making up the footboards - there is small half etch where it goes around around the axle box - this was left in place whilst soldering up the footboards and then removed later. The little tabs are for supporting the short steps by the gangways. The slot going around the support leg for the lower footboard. These were a real pain to get sorted as there wasn't much in the way of positive location so overtime I tried to solder the short footboard on then the bracket would detach itself from the chassis. As mention in John's thread in hindsight I should have followed Giles' lead and silver-soldered these brackets to the footboards.
    MR_brake_ - 9.jpg

    So footboards all fitted and roof fitted. I thinned down a 12BA washer and stuck a bit of copper wire through it to represent the stove chimney.
    MR_brake_ - 10.jpg

    Final fittings were buffers, lamp irons and handrails. The handrails are just some fine copper wire soldered on. I wasn't going to fold them up in this scale! Once painted they can be picked out in an appropriate colour.
    MR_brake_ - 11.jpg

    MR_brake_ - 12.jpg

    So it has gone to the paint shop. It still needs another coat of grey as the coverage is poor inside the gangways, I think the sole-bars on the chassis should also be grey so that will need masking up and painting. Also I'm still trying to decide on a suitable colour for the roof, I'm thinking a much blacker looking grey at the moment.

    MR_brake_ - 13.jpg

    Finally just trying to source some transfers for it and the LNWR van but initial email enquiries haven't been successful so I might have to resort to pen and paper!

    I hope that helps John!
    Last edited: 29 July 2015
  14. Ian Smith

    Ian Smith Western Thunderer

    Adrian, A really good documented build.

    I seem to remember that someone within the Association used to do some transfers for some pre-grouping companies, their details were on the Association website somewhere (probably in the small suppliers section). Fox transfers do some Midland transfers in 2mm (not completely sure what they do though as I've only used their GWR ones - which I can thoroughly recommend! - some Midland ones here http://fox-transfers.co.uk/transfers/midland-railway-wagon-lettering

  15. adrian

    adrian Flying Squad

  16. john lewsey

    john lewsey Western Thunderer

    Thank you some useful tips there
  17. Steve Sykes

    Steve Sykes Member

    I'm not sure Phil did more than one run of the transfers. I have a vague memory that Bob Jones of Fencehouses fame commissioned a second batch so it might be worth approaching him to see if he has any residual stock.

  18. adrian

    adrian Flying Squad

    A small update on the rail motor as things are ticking along slowly.

    I've tack soldered the bodywork together but it's rather flimsy as it is. The sides are anything but straight! The half etch is extremely thin in places and so great care is required in handling it. When soldering the recessed doors in I managed to put a ding in the side with the soldering iron, which needed a bit of careful work to remove.
    railmotor - 1 (1).jpg

    A delivery from the 2mmFS Association of coach wheels and a few other sundries meant that I could turn back to the chassis. First off was the bogie which was buildup from a series of overlays before folding up.
    railmotor - 2.jpg

    The nearly the completed bogie it all works fine but needs a bit more detailing. On the rail motor the bogie has guard irons fitted which are fairly visible, so those and a few brakes should see it completed.
    railmotor - 3.jpg

    The motor bogie needed a few tweaks, space at the front is rather tight so I've run a scrawker down the plastic end cap of the motor to run the wires as flush as possible and underneath the mounting. I then fitted the pivot block - tapped 10BA.
    railmotor - 4.jpg

    The chassis needed opening out for the motor bogie to fit and a then made up a small riser and mounting bracket for the motor bogie

    railmotor - 5.jpg

    So both bogies fitted - although probably a bit more work to do with spacing washers to get everything to the correct level.

    railmotor - 6.jpg

    However the bodywork sort of fits, the length is ok but it it's not very straight and interferes with the little upturned angle on the chassis. I'm tempted to remove these and cut out a little baseplate for the bodywork, this should hold the bodywork square and straight, at the moment there is still a little twist in the body that needs to be resolved. That and the roof is the next job to tackle.

    railmotor - 7.jpg

    Overall though I'm happy with how it's progressed. The motor isn't too big and is fairly representative of the boiler in the prototype, a bit more detailing should get help to disguise it.
  19. adrian

    adrian Flying Squad

    The rail motor is ticking along steadily, as mentioned in the previous post the etchings are rather thin and prone to bending. I've already done it two or three times and had to ease a couple of kinks out. So I have ended up cutting out a floor plate to stiffen up the etches and to try to keep them straight.

    The roof is going to be soldered on so a few cutouts in the floor plate should allow me to fit some glazing after painting. It also meant that I could drill and tap it 12BA so that it will screw to the chassis.
    m7 - 1.jpg

    It has made a big difference and stiffened it up nicely.

    So then it was sitting out the roof. There are a couple of suppliers providing plastic roofs but I wasn't sure of the profile and I would have preferred to have soldered the roof on so I thought I'd have a go at making my own roof.

    As it is only a small model it's only a small bit of nickel-silver wasted if it goes wrong. To begin with it was just a quick job to see if I could produce something acceptable. It sort of worked, I managed to get a representative profile.
    m7 - 2.jpg

    However it was too narrow and didn't overlap the sides very well.

    m7 - 3.jpg

    So for first time posters - I don't often (i.e. very rarely) get it right first time - not to give up I thought I better make MkII, taking a little more care this time. Also knowing that it would probably work I thought I'd run through the steps to making the roof in case any one else wants to try.

    First job was cutting out a rectangle of 10thou nickel-silver. I have a large sheet of half-hard n/s which was suitable for the job. I mark out with a pair of odd leg callipers and cut out with a piercing saw and then file down to the edge. I've included this shot as it shows something I've tried to explain before but it's difficult without the photo. Basically as I file down to the line if you watch carefully you know when you have reached the scribed line as a small sliver of material will curl off from the surface.
    m7 - 4.jpg

    One edge is then clamped in the vice against a tube of suitable diameter for the large radius, I then just used finger pressure to curve the roof around the tube. Make sure the tube or bar is clean of any blemishes or indentations. Any markings will probably indent or mark the nickel silver. The roof is turned around and curved from the other side.
    m7 - 5.jpg

    With a bit of work experimenting with different size tubes gets the major arc correct.

    m7 - 6.jpg

    Next is forming the minor arc at the edges. For this I used a couple of lengths of silver steel bar and a rawhide mallet. Holding the roof over the silver steel bar with a small overhang just go along the roof and tap over the edge.

    m7 - 8.jpg

    I took a little going backwards and forwards to get something looking right. Final finishing involves just rubbing the mallet up and down the roof to try to smooth out any undulations.

    m7 - 1 (1).jpg

    It still needed a bit of tweaking to get it straight,, it was just slow and steady with the rawhide mallet tweaking the bends against a few different sized bars. This time it's wide enough.

    m7 - 9.jpg

    The roof still needs to be soldered on and trimmed to length but as it was getting late I thought that better be left for another day. Also I need to check it again with a fresh pair of eyes to make sure it's all straight before I solder it in place.
    m7 - 10.jpg
  20. john lewsey

    john lewsey Western Thunderer

    Looks good to me Adrian
    adrian likes this.