An Unusual Collection

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
This collection never fails to surprise and delight.

In this case it's a photo of Met Loco No 12, the now famous Sarah Siddons on an Engineering train but we know not where. The loco is in its London Transport livery, given away by the style of number - the wagons carry the same ID - so this could well have been taken after the demise of these locos on passenger service. The destination board reads "Liverpool Street" and the side of the brake van carries the annotation " Ealing Common CME Depot". The wagon nearest the camera can be identified as BW259.

There's no info on the back of the print so this could well be a photograph by Mr Herbert himself.

img412 - .jpg

Brian
 

Engineer

Western Thunderer
I’m very pleased and grateful that it’s been possible to share the image of loco 15 in post 218. Thank you.

I apologise for the slightly larger lag in responding, as my two major interests for research and modelling are the Metropolitan Railway and trams and there have been two events of tram interest this weekend, both with very long journeys from home, so this message begins with an on-train draft. and therefore some supposition in the detail.

It is particularly useful to see another view of 15 from the Metropolitan era It provides a second source to confirm various detail variants and take a better look at the nameplate and its position. I may be wrong but I have a subjective impression that pictures of the south and west side of the locos are more available than of the other side and this is another one that makes the rule. The Metropolitan is a roughly NW-SE aligned railway route and best illumination of the subject may have been a common factor. The loco is facing in the direction its designers and operators intended and we can tell this from pictures because the bracket suspended from the middle area of the solebar is not precisely at the centre. Brake cylinders are in the restricted space of the underframe centre bay, acting by leverage on a common shaft that’s borne by these brackets, Vacuum cylinders, at the Country end, are larger than Westinghouse brake cylinders so the shaft axis and brackets are offset by design towards the Baker Street end.

On the corner area of the lower cab end panels nearest the photographer, there is a slight disruption of the pixels in the image, and I believe that’s because this is the place where the Metropolitan painted its coupling codes, too small and fine to come out in most images.

I feel there’s not enough evidence to confirm that the loco in the background whose number is partly obscured by the stowed lights on 15 is loco 5 – it’s just too small and incomplete to have an absolute view. The nameplate above does tell us that the loco in the background has a relatively short name, maybe no more than 12-13 characters including spaces within the string, as the main plate doesn’t extend very much outside the vertical beadings on the body’s side panels. Longer names had longer original plates. An aside on the stowed lights: As well as the three inbuilt marker lights, the locomotives had five cast lamp mountings on the footplate above the headstock The lamps, spigot-mounted in their sockets, appear to be stowed for convenience in the pair of sockets on the ‘Up’ side of the loco – sticking to Met. terminology. I believe the lamps are stowed because they are not facing front and where they are probably doesn’t imply a particular headcode, although there remain unanswered questions on the Metropolitan Railway’s headcodes.

I’m not sure I can add much than the books can say on the image in post 221 as it is post-1933 LT!. The books will say that four locomtives – 1, 3, 5 and 12 – were retained for shunting at depots and minor Engineer’s Train moves. One of the four depots was Ealing Common and their gifted locomotive was No. 12 [working from memory], so this was the origin of the long chain of events, via CME Test work, that made the operational life of Sarah Siddons so long and continuing. My guess is that it is a 1960s picture, and books and other clues may help a bit more with dating. There is something in the distance behind the locomotive and it is the profile of the sheds at Ealing Common Depot, East End and the locomotive and vehicles are standing on the Alps sidings. This is an area that I was very familiar with in my early career years. Few if any service trains were ever booked to leave from the Alps sidings, as far as I know, as the moves to exit would require shunts and there was adequate stabling and preparation in the sheds and yards. The Alps sidings instead tended to be – and still probably are – more likely to be used as storage space for less active vehicles, mostly for engineering, and also gave space to assemble trains or store trains in transit such as test trains. There have been all sorts of items in there, tube and surface, vehicles for scrap or for craning on and off lorries for moves or repairs, and Unimogs, and I remember an unusual road/rail shunter on solid urethane tyres being tested one day, moving a consist of every available vehicle that could be budged from around the sidings. Nevertheless, I don’t have perfect knowledge of what’s happened in there over time, but I can say that it has been one of the best places for stock variety on the railway. Today, there are fewer and shorter sidings as the Alps have been partially built on.
 
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Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
’m not sure I can add much than the books can say on the image in post 221 as it is post-1933 LT!. The books will say that four locomtives – 1, 3, 5 and 12 – were retained for shunting at depots and minor Engineer’s Train moves. One of the four depots was Ealing Common and their gifted locomotive was No. 12 [working from memory], so this was the origin of the long chain of events, via CME Test work, that made the operational life of Sarah Siddons so long and continuing. My guess is that it is a 1960s picture, and books and other clues may help a bit more with dating.

This will be a post 1962 photo as it coincides with the Met Bo-Bos being withdrawn from main line service and the four Engineer has referred to above retained for internal service following the Amersham electrification and dieselisation of the Aylesbury services. And I concur this photo was taken at Ealing Common depot.

Of the four wagons three are of Met origin -from left to right.
Ex-MET 10T ballast brake of 1896 vintage and the last of these were withdrawn in 1969. I say 10T as the upper horizontal handrail ends at the window which is not the case for the 14T ballast brakes rebuilt from 22' flat wagons where the upper handrail carries on under the window.

The next two are Ex-MET low open goods wagons of 1902 vintage converted to ballast wagons (hence LT logical lettering BW). These are interesting as they show two different lettering positions of LONDON TRANSPORT on the wagon sides. BW259 was scrapped in 1970.

The wagon next to the loco does not appear to be a LT vehicle as they did not have two-door (for want of a better term) dropside wagons. In addition the numbering, lettering and solebar colour are inconsistent with the LT style.
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
The photo of Wembley 1924 in post 216 is interesting as it clearly shows the Met Bo-Bo with spoked wheels - something to remember when I build mine.
 

Engineer

Western Thunderer
Just a supplement to my post 222 which I have amended by one word by replacing ‘above’ to ‘behind’.

I made the observation about original nameplate length. LT era locomotives and their nameplates are a bit easier with more information about, but to help modellers for the Met era, here are links to a couple of my favourite LT Museum images for detail, generally: John Milton [’10 characters plus one space’ plate] and William Ewart Gladstone [’21 characters plus two spaces’ plate]. Also enclosed, link to the well-known image of loco 15 before it was named and while it had its side removed during exhibition.

https://images.ltmuseum.co.uk/images/max/9n/i000069n.jpg
https://images.ltmuseum.co.uk/images/max/9j/i000069j.jpg
https://images.ltmuseum.co.uk/images/max/9d/i000069d.jpg

As a half-relevant aside, one of my pictures from a very cold day just at the buffers on the Alps sidings, now underneath the LT Museum Depot. No specific date, at the moment, either 1984/5 or 1985/6. Should eventually be able to narrow the date as the preceding week/end had seen a lengthy possession aborted because ballast in hopper wagons had frozen. Image is an old scan of my print from a colour negative. It should be good for detail at the date range given. Subsequent to its operational service life, loco 12 has continued to evolve its features and detail in myriad ways to make it diverge from LT era condition and even more from Met era.
Loco 12 stabled image p x cross p.jpg
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
That's wonderful stuff, Engineer and Dave. I really couldn't have asked for more detail to go with the photos. I'm very grateful to have the originator of the photo of No 15 confirmed as well, so I can now attribute it properly. In fact you are correct - the loco behind No 15 which I'd assumed to be No 5 is, in fact, No 13, Dick Whittington (withdrawn in 1962). Can the photo of No 5 also be attributed to the Benest Collection?

This next one is of Met Railway H Class 4-4-4T No 109 in LNER livery as 6421. This is clearly still allocated to the Met Railway trains, and I'm guessing that the location is somewhere between Rickmansworth and Aylesbury. It went to the LNER in 1935 so this image must be dated after that.

img411  Ex Met 109 - Copy.jpg

Brian
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
I've just checked my LT books and LNER 6421 (ex- Met 109) was transferred to the LNER in 1937 when the LT transferred their steams operations. They were reclassified as H2 by the LNER and based at Neasden until around 1940 when they were transferred to the Nottingham area.

Therefore the photo was taken between the date of transfer in 1937 and 1940.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thanks for the advice, Keith and Dave. My dating was based on some high level research. Does that mean we can never believe Wikipedia again?:)) However , at this distance in time I reckon a three year window is adequate!

Brian
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
To my mind this is a pretty iconic photo. Initially I thought it was 1950s, but the description on the reverse of the print says it's 16th May 1937, and closer inspection indicates that this is not to be argued with - the loco nameplate is a giveaway and the there are other indications of a pre-war photo.

Of particular interest to me (and I remember this well) are the two wires at coach roof level terminating at or close to the nearest lamp post. The train guard would have been in the dingy depths of the station and difficult to see from the loco. The answer was to have a warning which sounded when the guard pressed the ferule of his flag against the twinned wires, thus shorting them and sounding the warning to say that the train was ready to depart.

Loco here at Baker Street was No 9, John Milton which was withdrawn with most of the remainder of the class in 1962.

The original photo appeared to be from a quite good neg, but on closer inspection it has a large number of black and white marks which all needed correction. I've done my best with it, but where I was in doubt about whether a blemish was a part of the original photo I've left it.

img412  Top endorsed Baker Street 16 My 1937.jpg

Brian
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
This one is an absolute beauty, and crying out to be modelled. I don't see how this one could have been taken by Mr Herbert but there's no record of a photo reference or photographer. This is simply endorsed "Engine Shed, Brill". The original print is dark, covered in blemishes and exceptionally high contrast, so within the limitations of dealing with a printed image I've done my best to lift it, sharpen it and drop the contrast back a bit to make as much detail visible as possible. I also suspect that the original photo was taken on blue sensitive film which would account for the somewhat strange tonal and "painterly" appearance. Unless this image is previously known I suggest that it's of great historical value.

View attachment 107256

Brian
I thought this one looked familiar. But when I checked in The Brill Tramway by Bill Simpson (OPC) it is not the same photo. The book has a photograph on p85 credited to London Transport Executive from the same viewpoint taken at a similar date. It took a while to spot the differences but the foliage in the foreground is missing and a pile of ash is waiting to be removed near the water column. The old door leaning against the decrepit stables building is also missing in the published photo. From details like the paler weatherboard above the open door (missing in 1933) I would say both photos were taken during the summer of 1935. The LTE photograph was probably taken during the London Transport tour of inspection on 23 July 1935, and if it was it was between 2.30 and 2.45pm as that was all the time spent at Brill.

Brill has been modelled a number of times that I am aware of but it is far from exhausted as a topic. Lots going for it.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thanks again chaps. It's particularly helpful to have a suggested source for the photo of Brill. It suggests that it may be somewhere in the LT collection which is a bit worrying in view of the potential copyright issues, but it's being used here for education and also it's not known in publications so I'll rely on that at the moment!

This next one is clearly at Baker Street and is of Met electric loco No 11, George Romney, one of those withdrawn in the cull of 1962. "Aylesbury" is clearly on the destination board so it is facing the country end of the station. Circumstantially it appears to be at or around the same date as the photo of No 9 above judging by the detail in the background, including the "old" signal cabin although the fence in front of the garden shed centre top right is not present, and the staging from the top of the enbankment is not present in the previous photo. It appears to be in the loco layby. Is this the one in use until the early '60s?

This photo was of absolutely abysmal quality, covered in scratches and processing solution runs - it's taken me since Monday to make anything at all out of it. In fact the loco bogie furthest from the camera is one large processing run so the interpretation is largely a work of fiction. It's stamped in best John Bull printing outfit (who else remembers those?) "Peter W Boulding" to whom I accordingly attribute copyright.

img413.  Top Endorsed Baker Street.  Stamped Peter W Boulding.  Bot HC 62B - Copy (2).jpg

Brian
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
I think this is an immediate post war photo as it shows the staging for the London Transport Canteen and Catering Training Centre in Allsop Place completed in 1949. The work could have commenced before the war but may have stopped for the duration. The 1937 photo shows the two sheds and possibly the early stages of the building work behind and to the left of the fence. The sheds may well be workmans huts.

There is a 1949 booklet about the centre published by LTE (as it became in 1948 upon nationalisation of the railways) London Transport Catering Baker Street staff canteen

This 1960-1972 photo (John Gay) is from the Historic England Archive which shows the two buildings on the left (and the new signal box)

d7a5d35b-a2d1-4e5d-990b-5a1e9b1c8e73.jpg
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
This photo was of absolutely abysmal quality, covered in scratches and processing solution runs - it's taken me since Monday to make anything at all out of it. In fact the loco bogie furthest from the camera is one large processing run so the interpretation is largely a work of fiction.

Nevertheless it's still a piece of history as it shows the LT Baker St Staff Canteen in its early stages of construction.
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
Having said the photo may be immediate post-war, I now think not as the loco is not in 'austerity' grey and devoid of it's brass nameplate.
 
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oldravendale

Western Thunderer
What's the carriage doing on top of the canopy?
That's from when the Bakerloo Line was being built and they got the levels wrong. What you see in the photo is the remains of the first train to try to jump the gap.:)

Thank you for the additional info, Dave. That fills in some gaps in my knowledge for sure. I'm assuming that, as you believe this photo to not be immediately post war you're considering immediately pre-war? By the look of it that staging coming out from the embankment is a temporary structure. Do you know when the old signal box was demolished and when the new canteen was completed? The copy of the leaflet is an interesting and original view of Baker Street. I couldn't resist going down the rabbit hole of reviewing some of the other images - how I'd love to be able to get hold of a set of the canteen crockery.

So, on to the masterpiece for today. This was a much easier subject with which to deal, although sadly this one shows a bit of camera shake which is visible at high magnification. Without doubt this is the Chesham set, I believe at Neasden. If I had to guess a date I'd put it at the decade of 1950 but that's no more than a guess. The painting date (bottom left of the face of the vehicle nearest the camera) is just quite not readable, although with the benefit of considerable belief it could be "4 - something", as in 194- with the legend STEAM underneath. Location is, again based on belief and the buildings in the background, at Neasden, possibly in the "Klondyke Sidings" (where did that name come from?) Far left in the distance is one of the Met electric locos.

This print is identified on the rear "HC 62B".

img413.  Top Endorsed Baker Street.  Stamped Peter W Boulding.  Bot HC 62B - Copy.jpg

Brian
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
Yes, I say the photo with Met electric loco No 11 George Romney is pre-war due to the nameplate style and livery.

The now decommissioned (1988) flat roof signal box seen in later photos was built in 1924 and opened on 5th April of that year. The old one seen in the photos above on the retaining wall was built in 1913 and closed on the same day the new one was opened.

As I've alluded to earlier it appears the work for the canteen commenced in 1937 judging by the two photographs and TFL building records lists the canteen building as active from 1949 to the current day (still in use) which would imply it was completed in 1948/1949 - the date of the brochure.

Again I would suspect the war halted any significant building work between 1939 and 1945. Chiltern Court/Baker Street was damaged (not severely) by enemy bombing which may have hastened any demolition work.

By elementary deduction in Sherlock Holmes style (quite apt given we're talking about Baker St) it would be safe to assume the old signal box was demolished between 1937 (photo date) and 1948 - possibly earlier (1945?) to create the space, foundations and cantilever for the new building.

TFL records are here: http://content.tfl.gov.uk/research-guide-no-18-tfl-buildings-post-1933.pdf
 
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