An Unusual Collection

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thank you Engineer, and Dave again. I agree about the effort to get Met stock looking "right". Ken de Groome (Ken's Profiles) does some really lovely Met stock of several types - I have one of his electric locos in the stash which is definitely in the top quartile of kits in terms of accuracy and design. I also have a set of Dreadnoughts using Trevor Charlton sides which I bought (badly) built but are, IMHO, very good in profile. One is stripped ready to rebuild, but is currently a shelf queen. Ken is also getting to the end of producing an E class, with the potential for that to morph in to an F Class.

Actually, considering that we also have Radley Models us Met/District and Underground boyos are not badly served, at last in 7mm. I can't speak for 4mm.

Brian
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
I previously failed to include in the descriptions of LMS motor car M28016M with the motor compartment doors open in post #137 and all subsequent photos that these prints are endorsed on the reverse "May 1961". That fits very well with our estimated dates for the majority of these photographs. This date of May 1961 applies to all the photos below as well.

Location is unconfirmed - it could be Croxley Green but I'm now of the belief that our photographer was probably based at Stonebridge Park, so this shot and others previously should perhaps be considered as more likely at this location. Another Oerlikon Motor car here having the bogie removed or replaced. In view of its less than sparkling condition I reckon removal is most likely.

img397  All endorsed May 61 on reverse - Copy (6).jpg
This is a reasonable shot of an ex LMS set. It appears that the two cars furthest from the camera have recently been through works, but the motor car probably not. Again, May 1961.

img397  All endorsed May 61 on reverse - Copy.jpg

This shot, also from May 1961, shows what I believe is the commutator for an Oerlikon motor - not divine inspiration by me but the following pictures show a casing chalked "Oerlikon".

img398  All endorsed ay 61 on reverse - Copy (2).jpg
A May 1961 picture further reinforcing the view that the photographer is employed on the DC units. It's unlikely that this work would be going on with the crew looking directly at the camera unless they knew him.

img398  All endorsed ay 61 on reverse - Copy (3).jpg
Here's the commutator casing again in May 1961.

img398  All endorsed ay 61 on reverse - Copy (4).jpg
And again in May 1961 the Oerlikon commutator is fitted to its housing. It's a sobering thought that the young chap on the left who is, I'd guess, about 20 years old, will now be nearly 80! He'll remain forever young in this photo though.

img398  All endorsed ay 61 on reverse - Copy (5).jpg

Brian
 

76043

Western Thunderer
More wonderful images, thank you Brian.

My Uncle worked at Ilford car sheds for most of his career from the 60s onwards, so I can imagine similar scenes.

I'm also intrigued by the Rickmansworth destination blind shown in post 137, it's possible they were showing it for fun or some sort of in joke as there's clearly a 501 to the right which dates the image post 1955.

Tony
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
Location is unconfirmed - it could be Croxley Green but I'm now of the belief that our photographer was probably based at Stonebridge Park, so this shot and others previously should perhaps be considered as more likely at this location.

I think all of the Oerlikon, LMS stock and class 501s are taken at Stonebridge Park as the later workshop photos show. Especially as it appears the fitters are known to the photographer and the lack of 'railtour visitors' in the other photos. Croxley Green depot were car sheds and probably capable of light maintenance but not the heavy type as depicted here. These also show what went on behind the scenes to keep the trains running which most commuters would have been blissfully unaware of.

With the amount of electrical content of the Stonebridge Park photos one can only surmise the photographer (as commented earlier) was an employee or even a foreman given the apparent unbridled access to the depot.

As both Tony and yourself have commented the Rickmansworth destination blind on the Oerlikon stock is a mystery and will remain so.

And I'm also pleased we have been able to assist thus far with additional information such as the locations and narrowing the time period to 1959-61/62.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Just some clarification on the turny thingies.

On the trestle is an armature, the commutator is the shiny bit closest, this is where the brushes run and pass the electrickery to the armature windings. The brushes are made from carbon and the commutator is made of thin copper strips adhered to a insulating medium. One end of the strip is soldered to each end of each winding, the gaps in the strips act as micro chisels and effectively skim the brushes so that they wear down.

When the motor runs it is normal to see sparkling, fizzing, twinkling from the trailing edge, basically fine particles of carbon arcing as the comm bar leaves the brush surface.

The carbon dust permeates throughout the motor and eventually will bridge across the comm bars, the arching will grow in size and eventually it goes BANG. In learned circles this is called a 'flash over' in lay mans terms it's 'proper %$£&ed'.

The flashover can have two effects, a blown comm where big holes appear in the copper bars if the short was between the bars, the most usual kind of flash over. More unusual is the for the brush boxes to flash over but if they do then the motor is easier to repair. Finally, depending on the load, trip time and other factors there is the risk that the comm bars become so hot in the explosion that they melt the soldered connection, called 'throwing the solder out'.

If you have a flashover with burnt comm bars and thrown solder then it's a full strip and rebuild.

To prevent this motors are pulled for a 'wash and brush', basically a strip down and clean to remove all of the carbon dust. If the comm is found to be grooved, ridged or generally in a poor state (the carbon brushes wear grooves in the copper eventually) then it will be 'skimmed'. If the motor is passable and the comm partially marked or just glazed then it can be stoned in situ to smooth the comm, basically a big wooden pole with a comm stone taped on the end. Stoning is done live so it's a good idea to keep the RPM and thus voltage down, especially as the covers are open and you're poking around inside a spinning motor; big rubber over elbow gauntlets are a good measure as is a full face safety mask.

The armature on the trestle has been washed, brushed and had the comm has been skimmed, they do look nice like this. The next step will be to press the bearings on and then spin it up for balancing. The trestle is marked GE which I would assume is reserved for GE built motor armatures, not all armatures are designed the same internally.

The casing on the floor is called....yes you guessed it...the stator...because, wait for it....it doesn't turn, it's static. Inside the stator you can see two of the poles, they look like pillows, thus this is a four pole motor, there will be interpoles I suspect but I can't quite see them.

The stator has three parts, the core, head end and tail end castings, these hold the bearings. The end facing the photographer is the tail end, this is where the brushes live and is called the brush box, we know it's the brush box because we can see the cables exiting to the right by the axle bearing shell. The motor is orientated exactly as it would sit inside the traction bogie, top facing up, sat on it's bottom. To the left on the outside of the casing are the three lugs for the third fixing point, the one that stops the motor from flailing around inside the bogie.

The last photo shows the armature being lowered into the stator, the brush box is at the bottom and the brush assemblies will be fitted once the head end casting and bearing is fitted. The big bolts on the angled faces are holding the stator cores in place internally. Once the head end is on the pinion will be pressed onto the end of the shaft.

In general, DC motors are filthy, dirty, and on the whole pretty bloody scary under full load (I've seen enough flash overs up close to keep a healthy distance from them) on the other hand, AC motors are much more stable and significantly cleaner.

By far, for me, the most interesting set of images in the collection.
 
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oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thanks again, Dave - and wow, Mick. You are already aware that my knowledge of electrickery and the associated motor parts could be written on the top of a pin, so the info you've supplied here is especially valuable to me. That is great stuff and will grace the details of the motor shots.

I hope to get back to the laptop at some time today and add some more images, but none are as detailed as those few shots.

Brian
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Brian, you're welcome and I suspect you know more about DC motors than you first imagine ;).

I grew up with DC motors and their controllers and my ONC was in West Ham London, there were guys on our course from the PO railway.....look it up....and I did get a full tour of Mount Pleasant station and workshops for the price of a few beers, mind my PO union and pass card helped as well. Our instructor was ex LT electrical so we all got a good dose of DC motor theory and practicals.

Ironically I'm just off to the commission two 450kw DC motors today :(
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
These are the final images in the album which are possibly by Mr D M Herbert but we will go back to the beginning of the album to review the shots we've not looked at yet. In the meantime there will follow photos from the same album which I believe are not by Mr Herbert and where known the copyright will be stated. As these photos are being shown only on this forum and are for research purposes and to establish more detail I will be pleased to withdraw them if the copyright owner is known.

So, these are Mr Herbert's, I believe. They are all half plate prints and have been through a proper enlarger which accounts for the improved quality:

A decent photo of Met Electric Loco 14, Benjamin Disraeli, at Baker Street and endorsed on the reverse "May 61". Dreadnought coach No 485 next to the loco.

img398  All endorsed ay 61 on reverse - Copy.jpg

The next one is identified as Fairburn 2-6-4 tank No 42253 with a train for Baker Street (locos will be changed at Rickmansworth) at Chalfont and Latimer on 3 June 1960. The shed code, 14D, is for Neasden.

img399  Engine No 42253 with a train for Baker Streetat Chalfont & Latimer.  3 June 60.jpg

I considered not including this one but I'm wondering if this is the first photo taken by Mr Herbert - it bears a distinct similarity to my first ever railway photo. I can visualise a young Mr Herbert being handed the family box camera by a doting parent with this result. I'm almost certainly over dramatising the situation! However, I believe it's a prewar shot of a B17 and possibly at Rickmansworth which fits nicely with our story and belief that the London country end of the Met/GC was home.

img400.jpg

Finally, for this set, a photo identified as Ivatt 2-6-2 tank with a train from Chesham at Chalfont and Latimer on 3 June 1960. Shed code again 14D. The coaching stock is the famous Chesham set, fortunately preserved by the Bluebell Railway, although I'm not certain without checking that all three vehicles are still in existence.

img400  Engine No 41284 with a train from Chesham at Chalfont & Latimer.  3 June 60. - Copy.jpg

Brian
 

76043

Western Thunderer
Thank you again Brian for more interesting images, following on from the traction motor images. I particularly like the shot of the LMS/LMR unfitted brake van in Chalfont goods yard, full of details, such as the coal depot, lamps on the van, but the slope from the yard to the bay appears to be grass free, a useful detail that might of use one day.

I'm guessing the shot of the LNER B17 looks like Rickmansworth, complete with Metropolitan Railway danger sign, is the loco 2866?
Tony
 
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Engineer

Western Thunderer
Once again a hurried note. Met era Rickmansworth letter prefix was K [came up in my discussions of your pictures with a colleague last weekend]. The picture clue is signal J68 which is the starter from Harrow-on-the-Hill old Down platform 1, now platform 2 SB, and J signal box was immediately North of Harrow-on-the-Hill platforms, I think between the 'main' Up line and the Down 'local'/Uxbridge line. There was in Met times a small siding just ahead of the platform trailing to the left and I get an impression from the picture of some track rearrangement going on or already happened. Layout changed with the rebuilding of the station and 1949? re-signalling. The train in the image is for Marylebone, entering what is now platform 3 and is coming into the shade of the new station bridge and buildings.
With more time, dates could be clarified and there's likely to be papers on the resignalling, and all this may help with dating the image.
In the left background haze can be seen a distinctive building [now gone] that I remember from my schooldays journeys when changing trains at Harrow. It stood on the junction of College Road and Headstone Road and at street level there was a model shop, mainly of the ships and aircraft sort.
 
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Oz7mm

Western Thunderer
The first picture of No 14 at Baker Street brings back memories. One afternoon, going home from school, probably 1959, I went to catch the Aylesbury train in Platform 4. The double door was open just like the photo and my 13 year old self was peering inside. The driver came along and asked if I'd like to look around. When it got to departure time he asked where I was going (Harrow-on-the-Hill) and he just pulled the door to and set off.

The noise of a growler in the tunnel to Finchley Road wouldn't get past Health & Safety today.

Great memory. Thank you Driver X, whoever you were.
 

Tim Watson

Western Thunderer
Fascinating stuff, thankyou. I became quite taken with the intricacies of EMUs when making the Oerlikon set for our layout. They are more subtle than a steam engine!

Tim
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Found these after digging through my archives.

A 400Kw motor flash over.

IMG_0734.jpg

The hole in the comm bars is self evident and you can see that on the whole the comm bar is in poor condition, dirty and uneven surface, you can see where the brushes ran by the darkened strips around the comm.

When the bars shorted they blew out, the resulting deformed copper then grabbed the brush holding bars and ripped them all off, as they flailed around they then ripped through the field cables fitted around the stator.

IMG_0732.jpg

At lower leftish you can see part of a brush bar and three holders with the remains of the brushes in two of the pockets.

This motor is essentially a write off, it'll need a complete strip down and total rebuild or may just have been used for spares, bearings, carcass and anything else salvageable.

As a rough guide this would of been pulling 440v and up to 1500A if under full load when it flashed over at around 1200 rpm.

Here endeth the thread diversion :cool:
 

lankytank

Western Thunderer
When I worked for SWT at Bournemouth, we had a constant stream of traction motors on the 442's, Chernobyling themselves, we had a different technical term - F****d..... :eek:
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
but the slope from the yard to the bay appears to be grass free, a useful detail that might of use one day.

LT had a habit of keeping their premises tidy. These yards would have been in use up to the mid 60s as the earlier photo of the steam loco at Amersham depicts.
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
I believe it's a prewar shot of a B17 and possibly at Rickmansworth which fits nicely with our story and belief that the London country end of the Met/GC was home.

It could also be immediate post war. The loco number should provide a clue. Didn't the LNER carry out a remembering program during the 40's?
 

Engineer

Western Thunderer
Post 157: fully support the post-war dating hypothesis given new station building and seeming signalling/layout work in progress. Somewhere buried at home I have a book on the LNER post-war re-numbering scheme but given my specialties are the Met, Trams and electric traction I'd best leave the loco line of enquiry to the experts!
 

paulc

Western Thunderer
Found these after digging through my archives.

A 400Kw motor flash over.

View attachment 105917

The hole in the comm bars is self evident and you can see that on the whole the comm bar is in poor condition, dirty and uneven surface, you can see where the brushes ran by the darkened strips around the comm.

When the bars shorted they blew out, the resulting deformed copper then grabbed the brush holding bars and ripped them all off, as they flailed around they then ripped through the field cables fitted around the stator.

View attachment 105916

At lower leftish you can see part of a brush bar and three holders with the remains of the brushes in two of the pockets.

This motor is essentially a write off, it'll need a complete strip down and total rebuild or may just have been used for spares, bearings, carcass and anything else salvageable.

As a rough guide this would of been pulling 440v and up to 1500A if under full load when it flashed over at around 1200 rpm.

Here endeth the thread diversion :cool:
She's cactus mate !!!!
Cheers Paul
 

Rob Pulham

Western Thunderer
2866 (Nottingham Forest) was the B17's original number, it became 1666 in 1946 and then 61666 under BR days
 
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