7mm Beyer Peacock 1827 0-4-0 drawings

P-J.S.

Active Member
Hullo

Does anyone know of any published drawings of the 1879 Beyer Peacock 0-4-0 no 1827 and where I could find them please?
Beyer_Peacock_0-4-0ST_1827_in_1958.jpg

(Image from : http://homepage.ntlworld.com/foxfield/beyer_peacock.htm courtesy of google)

I'd like to attempt to build an S7 model of it, I came across it whilst researching all the photos I could find online about the L&Y Pugs and think this would make a cracking model. I plan to visit it over summer and make my own set as well, but would like a set to start to work from until I can do so.

Thank you!
PJ
 

S7BcSR

Western Thunderer
PJ

As far as I am aware all the Beyer Peacock papers are lodged with the Manchester Museums but can't remember which one though:(
 
S

Simon Dunkley

Guest
You need to look at the MoSI (Museum of Science and Industry) website, http://emu.msim.org.uk/htmlmn/collections/online/search.php

Be warned, the search engine uses order date and number, not delivery date and works number - a search on 1879 won't turn anything up, but 1878 in the "Beyer, Peacock" collection, looking for drawing as the key word, and you will be rather lucky.

I would place a direct link, but their site doesn't provide them in a useful way, at least, not on my tablet.
Edit:
The drawing reference is cd#22_26854_3701
That refers to order 3701 and drawing number 26854.
You can order these from the museum for reasonable rates.
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
PJ

As far as I am aware all the Beyer Peacock papers are lodged with the Manchester Museums but can't remember which one though:(

It's the Museum of Science and Industry in Manchester. I got a Beyer-Garratt drawing from them some years ago and I've just had a look at their web site again, but it doesn't seem as easy to search as I remember. I'll do a bit more digging around to see if I can find a better way of searching the Beyer-Peacock collection.

Jim.
 

P-J.S.

Active Member
Thank you both that's really helpful. I didn't think of looking there. That search engine is "interesting" to use to say the least. A trip to MOSI calls now.
 

Osgood

Western Thunderer
How lucky are you!!!!!

I tried to get some early Hudswell Clarke diesel drawings from Leeds Industrial Museum just at the time that the newly rejuvenated HUNSLET Engine Company was laying claim to them, so the museum was unable to make them available. I must make an effort to contact Statfold Farm and see if they will be prepared to allow access / copies. Fingers crossed......
 

AJC

Western Thunderer
You need to look at the MoSI (Museum of Science and Industry) website, http://emu.msim.org.uk/htmlmn/collections/online/search.php

Be warned, the search engine uses order date and number, not delivery date and works number - a search on 1879 won't turn anything up, but 1878 in the "Beyer, Peacock" collection, looking for drawing as the key word, and you will be rather lucky.

Since I'm actually a historian in the day job, I spend rather a lot of time in archives so have a point of view on this. As Simon has shown, the information can be found without too much difficulty although it is a bit of a fiddle - I've just had a play with the search for something else, just to see what appeared. Not nearly as straightforward as, say, The National Archives.

I agree that this is not the easiest search facility to use - and, if the data as displayed is anything to go by, it's partly because this collection is decidedly undercatalogued (not the museum's fault, necessarily, I've no idea what state the Beyer, Peacock collection was in when in arrived, how it was recorded or whether it was catalogued at all) but it's very, very difficult to get funding to do this sort of thing, particularly at the moment*) - but developing the catalogue search facility to include all these additional fields which probably don't currently exist at an item level in the MoSI catalogue, and to do the work mapping drawings, and their subsiduary details, such as delivery date and/or works no., etc. (which obviously won't apply to the vast majority of items in the collection of the MoSI) would entail huge amounts of work, time and money.

Realistically, this means a two or three year project and a large six or possibly seven figure sum (since if you're going to that trouble you would want to do, say, all the engineering drawing collections regardless of origin) and that assumes that you know exactly what you want before you start and the funders will wear it/can afford it. Should you have such a sum knocking around and can find some archive professionals at a loose end to do it then I know that the curators would be delighted.

A big plus, however: getting preview images of the drawings must have required a significant outlay in itself and, that's an archiving priority question; this is where they've chosen to spend the money as a relatively quick win. Since that would count as a digitisation project, and that's the current vogue, it is possible to get funds for this relatively easily. The result of this is that, unlike many other archives, if you can find the right drawing in the catalogue, at least you should have a decent idea of a. the state of the drawing and b. whether it actually shows what you want in the first place.

Adam

*It's even harder to get volunteers to do this sort of thing to a suitable standard and that creates another set of challenges and this isn't cost-free either.
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
Adam,

I was only complaining since I thought that the archive search used to be easier - certainly up to about a year ago. :) Then, the output of a search produced a set of thumbnail images of the selection along with basic descriptions so that you could look through the results quite quickly to see if your required data was there, and click on a thumbnail to go to fuller details and a larger image. Now, the search seems to bring up a text list of the selected items which you then have to click on a link to take you to each individual set of data and images, which is a much longer process - especially when you generally have to take a stab at a date for reasons such as those that Simon has mentioned. :)

But I do think it is excellent that MOSI has actually made the effort to archive the collection and make it available. I did get a Garratt drawing from them a few years ago and my dealings with them were excellent.

Jim.
 

AJC

Western Thunderer
Jim

There will be a reason for this - and knowing archivists, probably a good one (my guess would be a change in IT infrasturucture or an increase of what the search facility can actually search) - and you're right, I'm sure that the search output was different last time I looked.

There is more than one search interface, however - try the 'Images' search which seems to produce results more in keeping with what I remember:

http://www.mosi.org.uk/collections/explore-the-collections/images-online.aspx

The other searches have been of the whole collection...

Adam
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
There is more than one search interface, however - try the 'Images' search which seems to produce results more in keeping with what I remember:

Adam,,
I've just looked at the Images search and that's the way I remember it. :) But I can't remember using an "Images" search facility before to get the thumbnail output. Maybe the search functions have been updated to give better facilities.

Jim.
 
S

Simon Dunkley

Guest
Now that I am on a desktop PC, I can upload some screen shots, using the link I provided: completed search, list of results, and the drawing.

You really need to provide a bit more information, though, when doing this kind of search. As I said, the date of the order and the order number if possible, plus details of the customer - this is useful in comparing the results with what was hoped for, if nothing else.

Mosi search one.jpg
Mosi search two.jpg
BP drawing.jpg
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
*It's even harder to get volunteers to do this sort of thing to a suitable standard and that creates another set of challenges and this isn't cost-free either.

Adam,

Thinking back on your message of a few days ago, I found out that the archives of the Caledonian Railway Association are housed with the Glasgow University Archive Services, but the actual archiving is done by the Ballast Trust which is a charity set up some years ago.

http://www.gla.ac.uk/services/archives/businesses/ballasttrust/

I believe that this means that the archiving is being done by students at the University, but under the supervision of qualified archivists, so the costs could be quite low, or maybe even none at all. I could check with Jim MacIntosh of the CRA to see if there are costs.

I believe that the Glasgow University Archive holds the North British Loco and Andrew Barclay archives.

Jim.
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Adam,

Thinking back on your message of a few days ago, I found out that the archives of the Caledonian Railway Association are housed with the Glasgow University Archive Services, but the actual archiving is done by the Ballast Trust which is a charity set up some years ago.

http://www.gla.ac.uk/services/archives/businesses/ballasttrust/

I believe that this means that the archiving is being done by students at the University, but under the supervision of qualified archivists, so the costs could be quite low, or maybe even none at all. I could check with Jim MacIntosh of the CRA to see if there are costs.

I believe that the Glasgow University Archive holds the North British Loco and Andrew Barclay archives.

Jim.

Jim,

I'd be interested to know, there are a couple of Dubs/NB locos which I'd like drawings for...

Steph
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
I'd be interested to know, there are a couple of Dubs/NB locos which I'd like drawings for...

Steph,

This PDF is off the Glasgow Uni Archive site regarding their NBL collection

http://www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_67063_en.pdf

It gives all the pointers on where and how to search, but I haven't tried any of them yet.

The NBL archive only came to light a few years ago. Up till then it had been missing since the NBL closed down in the 1960s. Then Andrew Barclay in Kilmarnock closed down and the archivists were called in to deal with the Barclay material and found the NBL material. When NBL had closed down, Barclay took over the maintenance of existing NBL equipment at the time, and the complete load of NBL drawings was transferred from Springburn to Kilmarnock.

[Edit] Just noticed that the Dubs plans might be at the NRM

Jim.
 

AJC

Western Thunderer
Adam,

Thinking back on your message of a few days ago, I found out that the archives of the Caledonian Railway Association are housed with the Glasgow University Archive Services, but the actual archiving is done by the Ballast Trust which is a charity set up some years ago.

http://www.gla.ac.uk/services/archives/businesses/ballasttrust/

I believe that this means that the archiving is being done by students at the University, but under the supervision of qualified archivists, so the costs could be quite low, or maybe even none at all. I could check with Jim MacIntosh of the CRA to see if there are costs.

I believe that the Glasgow University Archive holds the North British Loco and Andrew Barclay archives.

Jim.

This seems quite innovative in approach, but it's far from cost free: there is 0.2 FTE archivist support. The Trust - a charitable foundation, i.e., it raises money to collate, secure conserve and store the material - evidently buys that archivist's time from Glasgow University Archives - pretty much every university has its own archives, with their own archivists (not students, though some of the trust volunteers may be). I'd reckon that this requires a reasonable five figure sum to keep it going annually.

The National Register of Archives (run by the The National Archies at Kew) can find the location of most former corporate archives in Britain:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/nra/

The Dubs archive looks to be reasonably wide-spread:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/nra/searches/subjectView.asp?ID=B6259

Adam
 

P-J.S.

Active Member
Archiving is a rather PITA (I have done quiet a fair bit of it whilst here at uni), so thank you all for sharing that, its been interesting reading.
But back on topic..... are there any other drawings of this loco? My understanding that it was originally built as a 0-4-2ST crane tank? yet the MOSI drawings are for an 0-4-0St?

Thanks all :D
 
S

Simon Dunkley

Guest
But back on topic..... are there any other drawings of this loco? My understanding that it was originally built as a 0-4-2ST crane tank? yet the MOSI drawings are for an 0-4-0St?
It might have been useful to know that earlier...
 

AJC

Western Thunderer
But back on topic..... are there any other drawings of this loco? My understanding that it was originally built as a 0-4-2ST crane tank? Yet the MOSI drawings are for an 0-4-0ST?

Well the machine in the photo looks like an absolutely standard small Beyer Peacock 0-4-0ST (there's one at the Foxfield). Where did the info' come from? If it's made it into the relevant IRS handbook then fair enough, but if the drawing matching the work's no. shows and 0-4-0 and a late picture shows an 0-4-0, my suspicion is that the info' must be wrong. There may have been another 0-4-2 crane tank of course...

It wouldn't be the first suggested rebuilding which is utter hokum: the 0-4-2 Peckett Sextus on the Furzebrook Tramway was alledgedly rebuilt from an 0-6-0; it wasn't, but Pecket did build some very similar 0-6-0s. Such rebuilds were pretty unusual.

Adam
 

Osgood

Western Thunderer
Reputed to have been the works shunter crane (see note on Foxfield website), also see the note on the drawing reference that Low Moor Iron order was also used for Beyer Peacock?
 
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