Prototype BR Van Drawings

JimG

Western Thunderer
I'm looking for a general arrangement drawing of a BR 12T van with corrugated ends. I've dug through the NRM OPC microfiche list but with no luck and I've started on the NRM Derby Carriage Works list but that is hard going with no search facility and nearly 900 pages. :) I've got the Essery LMS wagon books and the Tatlow LNER book, so I have a fair amount of information on the BR van's predecessors, but it would be good to have details of the actual wagon with any differences BR incorporated. I'll also be looking for other early BR wagons but the van will do to start with.

This has nothing to do with my Caledonian exploits - obviously :) -, but another possible project for S scale.

Isn't it great how we can access drawings from over a hundred years ago with little problem, but have great difficulty finding ones for railway prototypes built in our own lifetime. :) I've been looking for the drawings for a 303 class "Blue Train" since the 1960s and haven't located one yet. :)

Jim.
 

AndyB

Western Thunderer
Jim,

I have the NRM Derby C&W list in Excel format - makes searching and filtering much easier!
Send me a PM with your email address and I'll forward a copy - it's a 3MB file.

Andy

P.S. I have GA's for the STV & SOV open wagons if they are of any use to you.
 
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AndyB

Western Thunderer
I just discovered today we have a large collection of ex-Charles Roberts drawings on microfilm at work. The originals date from about 1950 to mid 1980's.
There is no index, but they do basically go in date order and all drawings for a specific wagon appear to be sequential.

So I had a brief look through and amongst them is the 12T Ventilated van - like the one shown here - Cholsey & Wallingford Railway on the Web
There are 2 GA's - I haven't looked in detail to spot the differences. Drawing numbers are 3280 & 3305.
The 'wiggly tin' end detail is shown on drawing 3303, and there are another 20 or so drawings of other details.
Might these be of use?
I probably won't be able to get copies until next year now (finish for the hols tomorrow - whoopeeee!!)

Other wagons found for the UK include a variety of tanks, iron ore, minerals& ballast.
Wagons for other countries include Ireland (C.I.E.), New Zealand, Uganda & Nigeria - with a corresponding mix of gauges.

Andy
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
I just discovered today we have a large collection of ex-Charles Roberts drawings on microfilm at work. The originals date from about 1950 to mid 1980's.
There is no index, but they do basically go in date order and all drawings for a specific wagon appear to be sequential.

So I had a brief look through and amongst them is the 12T Ventilated van - like the one shown here - Cholsey & Wallingford Railway on the Web
There are 2 GA's - I haven't looked in detail to spot the differences. Drawing numbers are 3280 & 3305.
The 'wiggly tin' end detail is shown on drawing 3303, and there are another 20 or so drawings of other details.
Might these be of use?
I probably won't be able to get copies until next year now (finish for the hols tomorrow - whoopeeee!!)

Other wagons found for the UK include a variety of tanks, iron ore, minerals& ballast.
Wagons for other countries include Ireland (C.I.E.), New Zealand, Uganda & Nigeria - with a corresponding mix of gauges.

I would be interested. I've just had my first trawl through the Derby C&W list you sent me and dug out quite a few wagon drawings which might be general arrangements, but no van so far. So any drawings you can source would be 0f great use - with the "wiggly tin" details. :) I don't think I would need all the detail drawings, the detail on a good GA drawing usually being sufficient if there are dimensions. But the "wiggly tin" end detail in No.3303 would be of great help since it would avoid having to second guess the shapes of the corrugations from a GA and pictures.

The details for the van will be enough to be going on with at the moment. The S Scale MRS has a 16T mineral wagon kit available which I'm re-ordering at the moment and getting an underframe for it from Justin Newitt at Rumney Models, and there was a 20T brake van etch from Connoisseur which was re-scaled from their 4mm product a few years ago and I'm hoping the photo tools are still around for a few more etches. So these three wagons represent, probably, the most recognisable designs from the early BR period. Other designs might be considered but I would like to get these three available first. :)

I also note that, concurrently, Dan Randall is going down the same road, but in 7mm scale. :)

Jim.
 

Pugsley

Western Thunderer
I just discovered today we have a large collection of ex-Charles Roberts drawings on microfilm at work. The originals date from about 1950 to mid 1980's.
Ooooh, that's interesting! I'd be interested in whatever you can obtain tank-wise, particularly of the 45T monobloc oil variety, please or the Hydrocyanic Acid tanks in the TRL 51435-49 series, in particular.
 

AndyB

Western Thunderer
I'd be interested in whatever you can obtain tank-wise, particularly of the 45T monobloc oil variety, please or the Hydrocyanic Acid tanks in the TRL 51435-49 series, in particular.
You'll need to help me out a bit - I 'do' pre-grouping Midland and LMS up to about 1928, so my knowledge of 'modern' stuff is a bit limited.
Some pointers such as when these were built (within a couple of years), 4-wheeled or bogie, and who they were first sold to (I've found the customer name is usually in the title block) would help. A link to a photo somewhere (if one exists on t'interweb) would also help me know that I've found the right thing.

Andy
 

AndyB

Western Thunderer
Pugsley,

Give me a reminder mid-January when I'm back at work and all this Christmas malarkey is out of the way - then I'll see what's to be found.

Andy
 

AndyB

Western Thunderer
Martin,

Is this what you're after?
Drawings dated late 1964 / early 1965. 15 wagons (numbered 400-414)
The customer is shown as 'Tank Rentals Ltd', rather than Tiger Leasing. And the livery is for ICI.
Attached is an extract from the Painting & Lettering drawing - hope you can see enough (the original microfiche is not very clear, our m/fiche scanner is in dire need of some maintenance and I've had to scale it down to fit the forum picture size limits) to confirm.
Send me your email address on a PM for the full-size scans.

Andy
 

Attachments

  • HCN Tank.jpg
    HCN Tank.jpg
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AJC

Western Thunderer
Tank Rentals became (or was brought by?) by Tiger Leasing so that could well be right. A useful drawing.

Adam
 

Pugsley

Western Thunderer
Martin,

Is this what you're after?
Drawings dated late 1964 / early 1965. 15 wagons (numbered 400-414)
The customer is shown as 'Tank Rentals Ltd', rather than Tiger Leasing. And the livery is for ICI.
Attached is an extract from the Painting & Lettering drawing - hope you can see enough (the original microfiche is not very clear, our m/fiche scanner is in dire need of some maintenance and I've had to scale it down to fit the forum picture size limits) to confirm.
Send me your email address on a PM for the full-size scans.

Andy
A belated thank you very much, that is spot on. Sorry it's been so long, I've only just seen your reply while searching for an old workbench thread it appears I didn't have!
 

AndyB

Western Thunderer
An old thread resurrected...
Ooooh, that's interesting! I'd be interested in whatever you can obtain tank-wise, particularly of the 45T monobloc oil variety, please or the Hydrocyanic Acid tanks in the TRL 51435-49 series, in particular.
HCN tank duly scanned and now provided.

4 months after the thread went silent, I managed to finish cataloguing the ex-Chas Roberts drawings.
A filter of my list for '45' gives the following. They're not so easy to access for scanning now, but if there are any of interest I'll see what I can do.

Andy

1675373215533.png
 

76043

Western Thunderer
Jim, surely you need a copy of the Don Rowland BR wagons, the first half million book? I picked up a copy on a eBay for under a tenner, it has plenty of drawings in it and it a perfect refence on the subject.
Tony
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
Jim, surely you need a copy of the Don Rowland BR wagons, the first half million book? I picked up a copy on a eBay for under a tenner, it has plenty of drawings in it and it a perfect refence on the subject.

My goodness, this thread has appeared from ancient history. :)

Andy actually supplied me with several drawings of the 12T van from his sources way back in 2016 which I used to CNC mill a corrugated end, but further development was set aside whilst I worked on an etched 16T mineral body which morphed into a 3D print development of the mineral. I've actually been thinking about getting back into 3D printing the 12T van.

The advantage of the series of drawings of the wagons that Andy supplied was that there were dimensioned drawings of all the details on the wagons which makes accurate modelling in CAD quite easy.

Jim.
 

Dan Randall

Western Thunderer
Andy actually supplied me with several drawings of the 12T van from his sources way back in 2016 which I used to CNC mill a corrugated end, but further development was set aside whilst I worked on an etched 16T mineral body which morphed into a 3D print development of the mineral. I've actually been thinking about getting back into 3D printing the 12T van.

The advantage of the series of drawings of the wagons that Andy supplied was that there were dimensioned drawings of all the details on the wagons which makes accurate modelling in CAD quite easy.

Jim.

Hi Jim

I’d totally forgotten about the existence of this thread, even though my name was mentioned! :))

Did you ever show any pictures of the corrugated end you made? If not, I’d be interested to see them please. I had a stab at drawing an end in TurboCAD a couple of years ago and printed one off, once I’d bought a 3D printer (an Elegoo Mars 2 Pro). As it was drawn primarily to test the viability of printed ends, I didn’t bother with rivets or a ventilator bonnet and for some bizarre reason drew the short corrugations too short, but I was still pleased with the outcome, seen here with the Dapol RTR version…
EB8F1C01-CB34-4034-A7D4-2221C6619FAC.jpeg
The print suffered from a little warping (I think it was the first thing I’d printed, after the Elegoo “Rook”, test pieces), so any future prints (drawn via Fusion 360, this time), will incorporate certain modifications and in addition, extra supports will be added via the slicing software, which will hopefully improve things greatly.


Regards

Dan
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
Hi Jim

I’d totally forgotten about the existence of this thread, even though my name was mentioned! :))

Did you ever show any pictures of the corrugated end you made? If not, I’d be interested to see them please. I had a stab at drawing an end in TurboCAD a couple of years ago and printed one off, once I’d bought a 3D printer (an Elegoo Mars 2 Pro). As it was drawn primarily to test the viability of printed ends, I didn’t bother with rivets or a ventilator bonnet and for some bizarre reason drew the short corrugations too short, but I was still pleased with the outcome, seen here with the Dapol RTR version…
View attachment 179507
The print suffered from a little warping (I think it was the first thing I’d printed, after the Elegoo “Rook”, test pieces), so any future prints (drawn via Fusion 360, this time), will incorporate certain modifications and in addition, extra supports will be added via the slicing software, which will hopefully improve things greatly.


Regards

Dan

Dan,


I've just dug up some pictures in my Internet picture folder so that looks like I posted them at some time in the past, most likely on here. But I'll post one again - it's quicker than searching back through several years of posts. :)

BR12TVan-002.jpg

BR12TVan-003.jpg

Apologies for the muck - spraying with Halford's primer before cleaning properly. :)

The scale is S, the material is Plastikard and it was cut in my CNC mill using ball nose cutters for the corrugations. The G-code for the CNC mill was hand coded and I was worried about the ends of the corrugations being too circular. I think on Andy's drawings and on photographic evidence, some corrugation ends have a short length of taper in them and that pushed my level of hand coding a bit too far at the time. :)

BR12TVan-004.jpg

I might now have a go in 3D CAD and my 3D printer to see if I can improve matters. :)

Jim.
 

Dan Randall

Western Thunderer
Hi Jim

Thanks for the pictures - that’s some pretty impressive CNC machining!

I‘ve sent Andy a message to see if he’d be kind enough to send me the drawings too, but I’ve actually seen the one above before (and think it may have been you that sent it to me?!), though where it is now, I couldn’t say, as I’m always losing stuff!

The corrugations definitely don’t have semi-circular ends, nor are they semi-circular in section, with a flat area between each one! Slater’s and Dapol both got this wrong, though the Dapol ends do look much better for some reason. I don’t think this lack of reality is confined to 7mm scale offerings either, but thought it would be an interesting CAD exercise, to try to improve the look of the corrugated ends. Here’s a render of my most recent attempt in Fusion 360…
18EAF7CC-2FDF-435A-81F8-786204D882B4.jpeg
I don’t think it’s quite there yet and obviously, I still need to add rivet/bolt detail and taper the sides as they go up, but nonetheless, I’m pretty pleased with how it looks so far, compared to the commercial renditions, that have gone before.


Regards

Dan
 
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JimG

Western Thunderer
I‘ve sent Andy a message to see if he’d be kind enough to send me the drawings too, but I’ve actually seen the one above before (and think it may have been you that sent it to me?!), though where it it now, I couldn’t say, as I’m always loosing stuff

I've got eight drawings here, all about 36K size. I could PM them to you if Andy hasn't got the access now.

Jim.
 
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