Brew Your Own 3d Printer
- Thread starter phileakins
- Start date
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
Phil,
I got that a couple of days ago too - there are often good deals to be had!
In answer to your questions, the price will be ex-vat.
Yes, it's a good deal.
But would it be suitable for creating models or masters? There's no short answer to that, but the resolution isn't fantastic so I suspect you'd see lines running across whatever you chose to make or ,at least, a rough surface requiring hand finishing.
Steph
I got that a couple of days ago too - there are often good deals to be had!
In answer to your questions, the price will be ex-vat.
Yes, it's a good deal.
But would it be suitable for creating models or masters? There's no short answer to that, but the resolution isn't fantastic so I suspect you'd see lines running across whatever you chose to make or ,at least, a rough surface requiring hand finishing.
Steph
phileakins
Western Thunderer
Thanks Steph.
After a bit of research (and looking at a few videos) I definitely feel a tug in the piggy bank pocket. It's especially interesting that the printer is part of an open source project started at the University of Bath, so that improvements can be expected and, perhaps, made on the printer itself.
Hmmmmm .. thinking.
Cheers.
Phil
After a bit of research (and looking at a few videos) I definitely feel a tug in the piggy bank pocket. It's especially interesting that the printer is part of an open source project started at the University of Bath, so that improvements can be expected and, perhaps, made on the printer itself.
Hmmmmm .. thinking.
Cheers.
Phil
SimonT
Western Thunderer
Phil,
I've gone down the 3D printing route and would advise against the Riprap. It uses the crudest of the three 3D printing technologies by extruding a wire of molten plastic. Resolution is limited to the size of the nozzle and the shape of the object is limited by the head getting in the way of printing complex shapes. The BBC and press reports on 3D printing have been naive. The Riprap is for 'hobby' use only and wouldn't produce anything suitable for modelling.
The higher standards of printing are produced by machines that use stereo lithography to either use a laser to solidify layers of resin (Form 1 and B9 printers) or use a laser to solidify a jet of powder plastic to build the layers (consider a large mortgage to buy one of these). There are some companies that offer 3D printing services and their prices are within reach to produce objects that will be acceptable on our models.
There are two steep learning curves to master in 3D printing. First is learning and mastering a 3D drawing/CAD package and producing models that represent the objects that you are modelling. Second is learning how to print and then learning how to design for your printer; the orientation and support of the object is crucial.
Following from a thread here in 2012 and a post by Simon Dunkely, I went down the Formlabs route. I spent a year learning how to draw while I waited for the printer; during this time I had models printed by Shapeways. Some were good, some had poor quality printing. When I received by printer I then validated my design process by printing some of my drawings and promptly changed my drawing package (after taking advice from someone who had been 3D printing for longer than me) and then changed how I drew my models. All will be redrawn; they printed but had quality and fidelity problems. I now, as the design progresses, draw and print the model in stages and then finally print the production model.
3D printing is advancing almost by the minute; I know that my Form 1 will be obsolete within 18 months. 3D printing will be like digital cameras. Remember the shoulder crushing VHS video cameras? Now you can produce high quality video on your mobile phone!
Hope this helps
SimonT
I've gone down the 3D printing route and would advise against the Riprap. It uses the crudest of the three 3D printing technologies by extruding a wire of molten plastic. Resolution is limited to the size of the nozzle and the shape of the object is limited by the head getting in the way of printing complex shapes. The BBC and press reports on 3D printing have been naive. The Riprap is for 'hobby' use only and wouldn't produce anything suitable for modelling.
The higher standards of printing are produced by machines that use stereo lithography to either use a laser to solidify layers of resin (Form 1 and B9 printers) or use a laser to solidify a jet of powder plastic to build the layers (consider a large mortgage to buy one of these). There are some companies that offer 3D printing services and their prices are within reach to produce objects that will be acceptable on our models.
There are two steep learning curves to master in 3D printing. First is learning and mastering a 3D drawing/CAD package and producing models that represent the objects that you are modelling. Second is learning how to print and then learning how to design for your printer; the orientation and support of the object is crucial.
Following from a thread here in 2012 and a post by Simon Dunkely, I went down the Formlabs route. I spent a year learning how to draw while I waited for the printer; during this time I had models printed by Shapeways. Some were good, some had poor quality printing. When I received by printer I then validated my design process by printing some of my drawings and promptly changed my drawing package (after taking advice from someone who had been 3D printing for longer than me) and then changed how I drew my models. All will be redrawn; they printed but had quality and fidelity problems. I now, as the design progresses, draw and print the model in stages and then finally print the production model.
3D printing is advancing almost by the minute; I know that my Form 1 will be obsolete within 18 months. 3D printing will be like digital cameras. Remember the shoulder crushing VHS video cameras? Now you can produce high quality video on your mobile phone!
Hope this helps
SimonT
Bill Bedford
Western Thunderer
If you want to get into 3D printing to produce models then the alternative of having your designs produced by professional outfits like Shapeways or iMaterialise is probably going to be less traumatic. You would then not have to spend much of your time getting the machine to produce anything that is in anyway acceptable. You would still have to learn the CAD and relate that how to produce the finish models from your drawings.
'O course if you enjoy spending your time tinkering with exotic machines then by all means get a Reprap.
'O course if you enjoy spending your time tinkering with exotic machines then by all means get a Reprap.
phileakins
Western Thunderer
Thanks for the advice guys - I'll keep the lock on the piggy bank pocket for a bit longer and have a look at the commercial printing alternatives. I know that Shapeways have a very good reputation.
Cheers.
Phil
I know that Shapeways have a very good reputation.Cheers.
Phil
alcazar
Guest
I've seen some of the stuff a big one can do in the laser labs at Loughborough University, and it is TRULY amazing.
REAL 3-D with even interior detail.
One was of a rook chess-piece, about 7" high, with stone walls including ivy, stonework, and a door, but the best was that it was translucent, and the door led to a spiral staircase to the roof!
REAL 3-D with even interior detail.
One was of a rook chess-piece, about 7" high, with stone walls including ivy, stonework, and a door, but the best was that it was translucent, and the door led to a spiral staircase to the roof!
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
To be fair, there's nothing new in that. Even 20-odd years ago stereolithography could produce things that could not be made by any other method. Where it's getting useful now is that we're not limited by material properties and the surface finish is good enough that often the laborious hand-finishing of old is largely unnecessary. And that's roughly the point at which it starts to get useful and interesting for modelmakers.
Steph
Oz7mm
Western Thunderer
The last set of masters I did for castings needed no cleaning up and looked superb. They were printed on a 16 micron SLS machine at 3D Creation Lab in Stoke on Trent. To put the RepRap machine in perspective, these masters were printed on an £85,000 machine. Even Shapeways, at their best current resolution, which I believe is 27 microns, tend to produce prints which need finishing if they are not going to tear at the mould rubber. If you want to see what can be done at 16 microns resolution. have a look at Arun Sharma's work for Radley Models. He had the master of a Waterloo & City Line motor coach on the Radley stand at Reading which looked great.
Learn the art of drawing in 3D, then worry about how the actual result will be realised. I would guess 3D printing is on the cusp of getting a lot cheaper, and in technology, there's rarely a bargain to be had for the early adopter.
John
Learn the art of drawing in 3D, then worry about how the actual result will be realised. I would guess 3D printing is on the cusp of getting a lot cheaper, and in technology, there's rarely a bargain to be had for the early adopter.
John
Pugsley
Western Thunderer
It's definitely becoming cheaper and more accessible, I've had parts from my machine (a B9 Creator) that are superior to parts made by Shapeways in their FUD material. I tend to slice at 50 micron, although it will cheerfully do 25, but so far I've not found that the extra time taken is worth it in additional quality.
Here's an example of parts so far:
Whilst they may not look amazing, bear in mind that they are only about 8mm wide in reality.
There are some limitations in terms of what it can achieve, but considering that it is was significantly cheaper than the type of machine that Shapeways use, I think it's pretty impressive.
Here's an example of parts so far:
Whilst they may not look amazing, bear in mind that they are only about 8mm wide in reality.
There are some limitations in terms of what it can achieve, but considering that it is was significantly cheaper than the type of machine that Shapeways use, I think it's pretty impressive.
Mike W
Western Thunderer
In my limited experience of solid printing, you need to understand the limitations of the item and design it around those, and have a printing firm who also understand what you want and print the right way round.
The axlebox above looks great, but look at the lines around the circular part at the top. I'm sure they are not a problem on the axlebox, but if you were printing (say) a smokebox with all rivets and other detail, then these lines all around the circumferance would be unacceptable and almost impossible to remove without damaging the detail.
I also have concerns about the life of the material used for printing. Do we know for sure that it will not shrink, warp or deteriorate in 10, 20 or 50 years?
BUT, having said that, with care and the right printer the results can be superb, especially if used as a pattern for casting.
Mike
The axlebox above looks great, but look at the lines around the circular part at the top. I'm sure they are not a problem on the axlebox, but if you were printing (say) a smokebox with all rivets and other detail, then these lines all around the circumferance would be unacceptable and almost impossible to remove without damaging the detail.
I also have concerns about the life of the material used for printing. Do we know for sure that it will not shrink, warp or deteriorate in 10, 20 or 50 years?
BUT, having said that, with care and the right printer the results can be superb, especially if used as a pattern for casting.
Mike
SimonT
Western Thunderer
Not sure that I am worried what the prints will be like in 50 years time!
So Pugsley and I have got our wallets out and are getting our hands dirty 3D printing. It would be interesting to find out how many people are printing things themselves and how many are out sourcing the printing to outfits like Shapeways. If you want to see fantastic printing, go and take a look at what Dave Finney is producing; he outsources his printing. Formlabs are working on a castable resin, The present resins have been cast but leave a small amount of residue. As these resins have the mechanical properties of ABS, I will only cast those items that need the mechanical strength of brass.
As pictures keep the more boisterous of the inmates quiet, here are some of my work.
A Timkin axlebox that will be used to upgrade my Parkside Dundas 21T minerals.
7 and 10 leaf springs for the 21T upgrades.
First of the upgrades with a BR Split Axlebox. The stud and nut that hold the box together are modeled. The stud is 30 micron diameter!
The other axle. The brake shoes are printed and on this one I used the Exactoscale W-irons and brake etches.
So Pugsley and I have got our wallets out and are getting our hands dirty 3D printing. It would be interesting to find out how many people are printing things themselves and how many are out sourcing the printing to outfits like Shapeways. If you want to see fantastic printing, go and take a look at what Dave Finney is producing; he outsources his printing. Formlabs are working on a castable resin, The present resins have been cast but leave a small amount of residue. As these resins have the mechanical properties of ABS, I will only cast those items that need the mechanical strength of brass.
As pictures keep the more boisterous of the inmates quiet, here are some of my work.
A Timkin axlebox that will be used to upgrade my Parkside Dundas 21T minerals.
7 and 10 leaf springs for the 21T upgrades.
First of the upgrades with a BR Split Axlebox. The stud and nut that hold the box together are modeled. The stud is 30 micron diameter!
The other axle. The brake shoes are printed and on this one I used the Exactoscale W-irons and brake etches.
Pugsley
Western Thunderer
The standard B9 Red resin is directly lost wax castable, but I've found that it isn't suitable for the small details required for model work, so I'm using a different one that captures detail beautifully, but can't be directly cast. I figure that it isn't too much of a problem, though.
I don't think that many people are printing their own parts so far, or if they are, they're keeping it quiet. I only know of one other on RMweb. Nice work on those springs and axleboxes, BTW.
Pugsley
Western Thunderer
On something much bigger, such as a smokebox, the stepping would be less of a problem. Due to the size of that particular piece of the axlebox, about 3.5mm diameter, each pixel on the machine is a large proportion of the part. The steps you can see could be reduced by operating the machine on its most detailed setting, but it reduces the size of the build area significantly, so I don't tend to bother.
No we don't, but if it does, as long as the original file is still sound and compatible with the programs used in the future, you can just print another one
SimonT
Western Thunderer
There has been an interesting thread on Form Users site where the jewelers have been experimenting with mixes of B9 resins in the Form 1. Initial enthusiasms have been blunted by the continuing issue of residue in the cavity in the investment. The B9 resin cures at a slightly different wavelength to the Form 1 laser. Formlabs are more than aware that the community wants a cast-able resin. I would prefer to see a ceramic metal resin to avoid casting altogether.
How is the B9 on flat surfaces with sharp corners? The Form1 is not always precise if the surface is the plane onto which the support structure attaches. I am thinking of trying a sacrificial surface to protect the surface that I want on the model.
Simon
alcazar
Guest
I would imagine that not many are yet doing it because they don't have the skills to draw it in 3-D?
I would love some parts printed: cabs for Falcon, for a start, but the cost of having someone draw them for me makes it not financially viable. It would cost me more to have someone do the drawing than buying a JLTRT kit complete! And that's even before someone has printed them.
Sadly, JLTRT don't do Falcon, and are never likely to, so it looks like styrene and cast them in four bits....
I would love some parts printed: cabs for Falcon, for a start, but the cost of having someone draw them for me makes it not financially viable. It would cost me more to have someone do the drawing than buying a JLTRT kit complete! And that's even before someone has printed them.
Sadly, JLTRT don't do Falcon, and are never likely to, so it looks like styrene and cast them in four bits....
Pugsley
Western Thunderer
With the resin that I'm using at the moment, it's excellent. Here's an example of the calibration model that I knocked up to see what kind of features it cope with.
The supports can cause problems, but I've got the settings for those about right now, so it leaves the merest hint of the supports on the surface, which can easily be removed with gentle sanding.
SimonT
Western Thunderer
More discipline than I to make a calibration model - I just fired off trying to print half a Coil T in 7mm! I'm now etching it as the Form 1 seems to be very good at the very small and not so good at the large, at least in giving the standards we expect.
Supports and print orientation are some of the trickier things to master. Every now and then Preform (the print preparation application for the Form 1) puts some supports through the model and out the other side. I know that some Form owners are using mesh editing tools to edit the support structures generated by Preform. I am resisting learning how to use yet another application.
Simon
Supports and print orientation are some of the trickier things to master. Every now and then Preform (the print preparation application for the Form 1) puts some supports through the model and out the other side. I know that some Form owners are using mesh editing tools to edit the support structures generated by Preform. I am resisting learning how to use yet another application.
Simon
Pugsley
Western Thunderer
You can use the B9 software (free download) to manually place supports, then save as an STL for Preform. I started off using Preform to automatically generate supports, then tweaked the output file so the B9 software would load it, but now prefer the manual placement of supports, so you can avoid problems like those you describe.