Building an Ace Kits "K"

[Scanlon]

Hi Brian,
Echoing Sandy I too feel for you. I have just checked my K which was built by Redcraft and it has a casting for the front of the firebox to boiler. Redcraft may have found something useable from the Mega range of castings although I do not recall him ever mentioning it.
If only there was a decent kit available!!!!!!!!
Roger

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for your thoughts and support, chaps.

The question of whether to use a kit or go on a voyage of discovery (well, it would have been for me) and scratch build is a moot point. In this case the basic dimensions appear to be correct but it is possible that the firebox may be a bit short in height. Bear in mind, though, that the photos above were of each of the parts rested in position and it looks as though the front of the firebox may have sunk a bit.

Overnight I've come up with some thoughts which I'll share below. However I agree, Fraser, that the absence of any front to the firebox is a glaring error, and the equal absence of any drawings or details about how to form the front within the instructions is an equal mistake. I can probably bodge a front and may well try that before joining boiler and smokebox. Neither is there any fixing provided for firebox to footplate, although if the boiler and firebox are joined and the firebox is then soldered to the cab front I guess the fixing would be OK. That is not, however, part of my GRAND PLAN. In fact I've borrowed the book of cunning plans from a certain other thread.

Boiler dimensions look pretty close to the GA, Simon.

My current thoughts are these:

1. Make a firebox front which needs to only approximately fill the hole and solder in position.
2. Use the second spacer to make a firebox back and solder this in position too.
3. Shape the firebox front using "Plastic Metal" which will withstand soft soldering temperatures (which I know from practical experience with the tender). It will also avoid the embarrassment of a soft solder filling melting as I get a soldering iron anywhere near the beautifully formed firebox front after it's been filed to shape. Shades of experience with the tender there as well.
4. Join boiler and firebox. This may involve a bit of nifty work with introducing some studs which can come from the boiler in to the firebox in order to locate it properly as there'll be b****r all brass on the front of the firebox to solder to. Hopefully the location, height and parallelism of the boiler/footplate can then be checked and adjusted as necessary. New boiler mountings might well be needed anyway so this will give chapter and verse on that aspect.
5. Fill the space in the cab front (I'll post a picture shortly to show why this will be necessary), or make a new cab front.
6. Using the location tab provided on the firebox and the slot in the cab front tack solder one to t'other and drill through the cab front and firebox back to provide holes for BA locating screws with the nuts soldered to the inside of the firebox back. This will, with a bit of nifty footwork at the front end allow the boiler to be removed for painting etc.

One of the joys I have yet to deal with - and it'll come a lot later - is that the provided backhead is etched. I'll just stop a moment to let that sink in..... In due course I'll post some photos of that, but if I can bend it to shape, fill and file properly there should be adequate space behind it to hide the screw securing the boiler/firebox to the cab front. (Regrettably, despite searching for several years, I've not found a suitable cast backhead).

Dunno whether I'll get out to the workshop this afternoon but I'll try.

Brian

PS - Having just read Roger's update - oh dear - I didn't check the castings for a front. I sorta assumed that, as there are bend marks and half etch marks included on the firebox etch that's what is provided. I may yet have to eat my words.......

 

[Steph Dale]

Dad,
You could assemble the basic shape with a high melting point solder, shape the front, etc and then install it knowing that you won't disturb the solder or shapes. It might work a bit better than filler.
Or we 3Dprint the front of the firebox to suit the parts; could do the backhead too...
Steph

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for a good thought. I've found previously that a high melting point solder is not a terrifically good gap filler - and there are a lot of gaps. But probably worth a go rather than body filler. Having said which I know from previous experience that I can get a good shape with car body filler, it files easily and if Cptn Cock Up calls an additional application will easily fill any mistakes. The down side of solder is that rectifying a mistake can easily lead to melting the whole thing during rectification, although perhaps that's the time to use the filler.

I usually prefer solder so that's not the issue.

Oh, and BTW, there's no cast firebox front.

The idea of 3D printing is tempting, but this loco has already cost more than an MOK or F7 kit and I'm simply not prepared to spend any more money on it.

B

 

[Steph Dale]

The down side of solder is that rectifying a mistake can easily lead to melting the whole thing during rectification, although perhaps that's the time to use the filler.

That's a technique thing. @SimonT is the master at such filling techniques, but the principle is to load the iron with solder and touch the solder, not the iron, to the area in need of attention. I suspect there's the odd trick to it, I know I tend to turn the iron down when I've done it so that the heat carries away from the iron/solder when it touches the larger, colder workpiece.

Like me, you use 145 solder for whitemetal don't you? So you should be comfortable with heat control.

Steph

 

[mickoo]

The idea of 3D printing is tempting, but this loco has already cost more than an MOK or F7 kit and I'm simply not prepared to spend any more money on it.

B

But you will though, people think that because it didn't come from the wallet that it's free, it's not, it takes time which I hesitate to suggest is more important than mere coin.

That's fine if you have all the time in the world, which I doubt few really have if they're honest, but most of us don't. A 3D print I'm guessing will cost roughly £20 for Firebox front and backhead and I have an order going off in the next week or so, so we could split the postage and I can hand deliver to you at Reading.

Personally I'd rather splash the cash and with the four or five hours saved take the wife out for an afternoon meal, one thing for sure that'll be a hell of a lot less stressful than hand making bits for the K.....or maybe not lol.

BTW The time 'rate' doubles when it's parts you shouldn't have to be making due to elevated stress levels, as opposed to parts you 'want' to make as an upgrade for example.

MD

 

[SimonT]

The other way is to use MF's design philosophy. The front of the firebix is three layers of thick NS soldered and pinned together with a single layer at the back. The wrapper thus goes down well onto a thick piece of metal into which you are going to file and polish to a convincing firebox shape. I build up a big fillet into the inside corner with 145 solder.



Above is the Hall most of the way through the process. At the top you can see where I have filled some of the steps on the three layers and on the side you can see two still to fill. Although the top ones catch the light they pass the finger nail test and don't show now that the thing is primed.

As Steph says use a suitable sized blob of solder (roughly twice the volume to fill) and only the solder touches the model to leave a deposit of solder. Out with the flexible sanding sticks to blend it in. If the blob wasn't enough, repeat. Only a small volume gets heated so there is no danger of melt down. When you are confident you can use the micro-flame to soften the solder to get a smooth surface.

The firebox formers are either etched or you get the saw out and make some dust!

Simon

 

[oldravendale]

Great help there, chaps.

Mickoo - I understand your philosophy, and you are right on the ball if considering the time/value equation. In my case, as with the tender, I'm using this almost as a test piece to learn and use new techniques and also as an excuse to scratch build. Hopefully a lot of what I learn will only be applicable to this kit. So far I've only fallen off the wagon once, and that was when Simon ha the etches for the slidebars and motion brackets/cylinder glands done for me. Those in the kit were entirely useless, and the suggested alternative wasn't really the right pattern - nor was it long enough. Now, if the filling and filing doesn't come to fruition I'll no doubt be trying 3D printing, so thanks for your thoughts on that. I doubt I'll be ready to make that decision in time to meet your timetable, though.

Simon - thanks for your comments and I'll try your technique using a high temp solder. I have done this previously and successfully but have always been concerned that subsequent soldering will lead to disaster. My concern here is that there is so much filling required that it'll be beyond any reasonable efforts, in which case either car body filler or Mickoo/Steph's 3D approach will be worth a shot.

When I get the chance I'll copy the relevant bits of the instructions. I know how much everybody on this forum likes a good laugh......

Brian

 

[SimonT]

Brian,
the important part is the three layered front former. Guy Williams recommended at least 1/16" in 4mm, that is 1.6mm. About 2.8mm in 7mm? Do it like that and it is easy. And use 145 solder or you will need an oxy set to get the heat!

Simon

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Simon. There has been some progress today, but nothing to see - yet. The firebox is now a stiff assembly with the formers in place. The cab front has had a plate inserted for the putative fitting screws for the firebox.

I tried fitting the formers with a 245 degree solder. Well, I got them in but had to finish with a gas torch, so your advice is of great value. Actually, holding the boiler/firebox/cab front together now doesn't look anywhere near so bad for levels. That's mainly because the firebox is a strong unit which can be pulled and pushed around. Until the formers were fitted it was rather akin to juggling blancmange.

More, I hope, tomorrow. The day when I have to decide the proper location of boiler vs firebox.........

B

 

[simond]

Brian,

You’ve probably beaten me to it, but you could use the etched backhead as a front for the firebox. It should, at least, be the right shape...

Watching with bemused interest. I have a Garratt thread in the other place. Not much has happened of late, but the woeful incompetence of the kit etches provides some amusement in there, if you need a little light relief!

Best
Simon

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for the suggestion, Simon, but I'm going to try the backhead.......as a backhead.

But I'll enjoy reading someone elses travails. Actually, enjoy is the wrong word, but my brain is going numb.

B

 

[Eastsidepilot]

Brian,
When I've scratch built I have made a pattern and milled firebox fronts and backs from brass plate, if that is not an option for you then I reckon the layered sheet metal method a good alternative, it would mean a lot of cleaning up with files etc. but probably worth the effort. Mistakes ( if any ) can be repaired with filler after.
ATB, Col.

 

[oldravendale]

Hi Col.

What a very good idea! In the absence of any sort of milling capability (or knowledge!) layered metal sounds perfect. It's one of those "why didn't I think of that" moments. I'm going to have a go with the "bent metal and solder filler" approach as well, to see how effective that can be but the layered approach would be so much more controllable and less subject to melting damage.

That's a process which will certainly go in to my back pocket. Thank you.

Brian

 

[SimonT]

Told you so

 

[oldravendale]

I'm getting ahead of myself here, having spent no time in the workshop for the last week (although a weekend visit from Steph of this parish has helped to suggest THE WAY FORWARD. Trouble is, real life gets in the way. Two new bathrooms, a reconstructed porch and a new bedroom to decorate from scratch takes a bit of time, I've found.

However, the club layout is going digital, as a result of which there will be a bulk order for decoders going in to a lucky supplier somewhere. I'm adding one for the K to this order, but as there are none in preservation I'm wondering if anyone can suggest a suitable alternative.

Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

but as there are none in preservation I'm wondering if anyone can suggest a suitable alternative.

Wot! No decoders in preservation . They'll have to go back to using steam

If it's for sound then I'd look at 2 cylinder sound profiles for similar size and vintage engines.

 

[John K]

However, the club layout is going digital, as a result of which there will be a bulk order for decoders going in to a lucky supplier somewhere. I'm adding one for the K to this order, but as there are none in preservation I'm wondering if anyone can suggest a suitable alternative.
Brian

Hi Brian
There are plenty of 2 cylinder steam sound systems around, but they can be let down by an obviously wrong whistle. Digitrains have a couple of Southern type systems on the excellent Zimo 644/5 decoder.
This one has the newish active drive system in which you drive with a brake button on F2. These decoders are, IMHO, the dog’s danglies.
ZS010A SOUTHERN 2 CYL ACTIVEDRIVE | Digitrains
John K

 

[mickoo]

I presume the longer you hold F2 the faster the brakes set? How do you release them then, add more power one assumes.

Does the new function come with a sound effect, that's the one sound that seems to be missing, setting and releasing brakes.

They'll make shunting much more realistic and exciting for sure lol.

 

[John K]

I presume the longer you hold F2 the faster the brakes set? How do you release them then, add more power one assumes.
They'l make shunting much more realistic and exciting for sure lol.

Hi Mickoo
You set F2 to momentary rather than toggle. The brake is on as long as you hold F2. Let go of the button and the brakes come off. It leads to much more realistic operating, but you do need to spend a few minutes learning to drive it. Its been available for 2 or 4 years and so far it is a feature that only Zimo is offering.