Building an Ace Kits "K"

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
To bring things up to date:

Photo of tender - the only one I have - copyright is Paul Chancellor's and it's included here as part of the research for the "K".

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Note location of lamp irons, blanking plates from original location of lamp irons and rivets. The original lamp irons were on the top of the buffer beam and at the locations of the blanking plates.

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The shot above shows the three rivets which appear on the tender but are not half etched in the kit and also the 0.7mm holes (also not provided) drilled for the lamp irons. The two holes above the lower level of lamp iron holes are those which are provided but they are both too large and not in the correct places.

I calculated the locations of the lamp irons, rivets and blanking plates by using the photo above and calculating their positions by comparison with known measurements from the model tender. Their locations may not be absolutely precise, but they are a damned sight better than the absence of any location provided in the kit.
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These above three shots show the great blobs of solder applied over the triangular corner pieces in preparation for filing back in to the proper flare corner profiles. The triangular pieces were fitted with 244 degree solder so that they would stay in place when I applied the plumbers solder which flows and shapes nicely.

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The above shots are of the filed back tender corners. I am sooo delighted with this afternoon's work that I've rather overdone the photos.

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So this is where I've got to now. The lid is on (I told you I'm not an engineer) although yet to be soldered. There are some strange half etched marks on this tender top and no instructions about how they are intended to be bent or fitted. I think I worked this out just this evening and will be proceeding with the fixing of this, the tender front and footboard tomorrow.

Brian
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
I hesitate to comment as you have put together the supplied parts very well but it looks like you have ended up with sharper radius corners and flare than shown in the prototype photo. I don't know if there were other versions of the tender with sharper corners.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Comment away, Overseer! I was hoping nobody was going to notice but I'm pretty convinced you are correct. The problem for me was the lack of any proper guidance and the suggestion of the use of a 9mm bar for the radii, which was clearly far too great. There is a half etched patch for forming the radius and I used this as the guide. I should know better by now as none of the slots or predrilled holes/locations have been correct.

I've also now reviewed the drawings. Clearly the radius should be somewhat greater, but I'm not going back now!

Brian

PS - Having been through my building process after your comment I know what clinched the radius for me - it was the radius of the tank top which slides in to grooves created by bending the flares out. Again, no excuses, particularly as I've been so critical of the dimensioning of the original kit. I'll consider overnight whether to take a blow torch to it as, in truth, so far it's only the tender body to come off and clean up with the footplate, plus remaking the flared corners which I know I can do.
 
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oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Well, 'ere we go, as one earwig said to the other earwig:

Thanks to Roger of this parish I learned that the tender upon which I was basing my own is the only one which Bulleid had a go at and to which he fitted the new fangled electrical lighting. Inevitably it was not fitted to 32337. The holes I carefully identified and drilled have to be filled in and we return to those on the buffer beam and the pre-drilled holes in the tender back. Not sure about the rivets on the tender rear. That needs further investigation. That's the good news.

Adjusting the radius of the curves on the tender rear was yesterday's and today's priority. Having removed the tender body from the footplate and cleaned it up creating a curve in the tender rear with a bigger radius seemed easy-peasy. It was not. The half etched lines intended to help the bending did not do so. In fact they forced the radius to be the one I initially ended up with. I tried several times to create a larger radius but the bends started to crack so I had to find an alternative option.

There followed a sequence of comedy soldering. In fact I decided that my best option was to solder a piece of tube of about the correct radius in each corner and file in new corner radii based on that. I slit in half a piece of 6mm copper tube which I happened to have in stock. (This was bought at a Model Engineer's Exhibition many years ago when Steph asked why the hell I wanted to buy that. The answer's obvious - cos it was cheap and I knew it would come in useful later - about 25 years later as it happens). Maybe Mr Ascough was not so far out with his suggestion of 9mm after all. Using the highest melting point solder I have (I think it 224 degrees) I melted this in to the corners with the sections of tube in place using a blow torch. I used the high melting point solder because I intended to use low melting point to re-create the flares and didn't want to risk the corners coming apart. I ended up with this really ugly looking pair of corners - from the inside.

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Next I filed the original corners away, back to the copper tube. It then looked like this.

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It's at this point that I claim my bodger of the week award.

I pondered over building the corner up with low melt solder, but then thought I could use chemical metal filler and create the flares afterwards with solder. I can hear the tutting and sharp intakes of breath from here. Is this the first example of mixed media filling? I was concerned about using low melt for the outside corners and flares because any corrections could have resulted in the failure of the whole piece of filling, if you see what I mean. It was also an experiment to see if I could make it work. IMG_5152.JPG IMG_5155.JPG IMG_5156.JPG So firstly the corners were filled with chemical metal and then the flares bent to give a base for the low melt. These were filled as previously and filed back. Here's the result with one corner complete and the second with the corner flare bent back and prepared for filling with solder. I'm hopeful that this will now give the larger radius required and I'll find out once the assembly is soldered back on to the footplate.

Wish me luck.

Brian
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Only an update tonight - I'll have some photos for my next post.

The tender body has been fitted to the footplate.

I'd hoped that the tank top would not need modification - it would have been the first part which could be fitted as supplied, but the rear corners had to be reprofiled to fit the larger radius tender corners. However it was done and the top soldered in place. Inevitably this resulted in one of the corner flares melting so that's had to be remade. This is not a huge problem except that, now the lid is on there is very limited space in which to wield the necessary files. Anyway, solder is applied and filed back, even though it's less smooth than I'd like on the inside radius. I've applied some filler and I'll try sanding smooth tomorrow.

Please may I have some advice about the beading to apply to the tender top? I can get hold of 1mm half round brass wire from Eileens and Hobby Holidays, but does anyone do this in copper wire, as I find that so much easier to bend? I know I could anneal the brass but it then tends to bend and twist out of shape, although it's certainly softer and easier to shape.

The loco back head in the kit is also "in the flat" with the clear intention that it should be made three dimensional by using the technique similar to the one used to make the tender flares. I don't fancy that much, so does anyone know a maker of an LBSCR back head suitable for a "K"? There is also no tool box in the kit, so is there a manufacturer of suitable boxes - this could be in white metal? I could also use a lost wax brass tender brake stanchion, if one is available, but I can manage with the white metal one in the kit if I have to.

As ever I'll be grateful for any recommendations.

Brian
 

Scale7JB

Western Thunderer
In the past I've made my own beading from round.

Solder a length to a sheet of brass to keep it steady, and then file off half of the material to give a half round...

I've also used this method to make a 1/4 round as well, when needed for the J tank boiler-> smokebox beading.

JB.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Here's my latest update.

No progress yet, despite my intentions, to produce some half round, but I will do so. I've discovered some shaped strip in the kit which I thought was part of the coal rails as it's joined on the fret, and there's no mention in the instructions but is, in fact, the tender beading. I think half round will look far better if I can make it work. (I'll have to watch out when going around the low melt corners to avoid melting them yet again).

However, some slow progress has been made on the tender.

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I mentioned in my post on Monday that the first part which I'd hoped would not need modification, the tender top, actually needed some. You can see from above that the radius of the corners is too sharp, which is why I initially bent the body to match. It was easy to file the corners back to match the corners I'd created.

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Above are two photos of the top fitted and soldered in place, and with the coal space sides soldered in. These show the top and sides as rough soldered in place - later are pics of the cleaned up item.

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The next item to fit is the tender footboard. The hole for the brake column is clearly way too large, so I filled this with a soldered plate from the rear and drilled a small hole in to which the base of the brake column will fit. There's another problem which can't be seen here but to which I'll refer later.

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These two shots show the corners of the footboard fret as folded and fitted. Close inspection will show that I've had to splice a couple of pieces of metal in as the sides are too short - by different amounts! One needed about 1.5mm spliced in, and the other just a smidge (that's about half a gnat's crochet - any engineers will recognise the standard dimension). So, yet another piece which needed modification. However the tender coal plate fitted as supplied - hooray! That's a first. Nevertheless, I had to file off the location tab as it did not fit square with the footboard in place - I suspect the error is in the footplate as most of the others have been.

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This is the coal plate and footboard soldered in place, hole filled and with shovelling plate installed. I've not fitted the brake column yet as it's white metal and already fragile. I have coal rails and other detailing to fit so damage is almost inevitable - not a disaster as the top of the column, which is the most fragile part, can be easily scratch built.

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Finally a shot of where I am now. The tender is mounted on the chassis. The solder has been cleaned back and filling so far is complete. Next is the fitting of the outside frames, buffer bean, drag beam and valances which have had the fret attachment tabs filed away and are ready to fit. They look OK, and the buffer beam is generally OK, as is the drag beam. But......... the valances and outside frames are too short to fit accurately between tender back and front by between one and two mm (not measured yet). I'll have to infill these as with the footboard. Once I've established the proper position the location tabs for the outside frames will be filed off as I already know that the slots are incorrect.

Hopefully some more tomorrow.

Brian
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
One small step for Brian. One giant leap for Acekind.

I cannot believe that Mr Ascough ever did a test build on this kit. In fact, it's so bad I'm starting to suspect it's me that's wrong. However.........

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Rear buffer beam, with no mods - fixed.
Front drag beam with no mods - fixed.
Side valances with no mods - fixed.

And the slots are all in the correct places!

Hooray!

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Then it all went t**s up again. Just look at the sizes of the holes in the tender top and the external frames compared with the pins which are meant to fit.

The washers were intended to fill the holes in the tender top with a handy hole in the centre of nearer the required size. However, when it came to the practice I decided to solder a piece of metal over the holes on the tender inside and drill a new centre of 1.5mm which fits the pins on the filler and vent. However these were not fitted yet as they'd be subject to further damage in fitting the remainder of the parts to the tender top. Fortunately the larger hole would be covered by the width of the filler.

Unfortunately.....the heat generated by soldering in the piece of metal to cover the over large holes liquefied the low temp solder on the corners for the third time. That's corrected yet again at a great expense in time and frustration, but it's done.

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The smaller hole was filled flush with the tender top.

The white metal axle boxes and springs were more than large enough to cover the holes in the exterior frames so it was a simple question of locating them correctly and soldering in position.

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These white metal axle boxes are actually pretty good. There is very little flash and they look fine when compared with the drawing and photos. They were tinned with 100 degree solder - so were the frames. I used the RSU at the middle setting to solder on the large parts of the castings, and the regular soldering iron at 200 degrees to solder on the smaller parts. Use of the RSU with white metal needs a fair degree of care and study of the precise point at which the solder melts, but it works. There is a little solder on the outside frames, but this will clean up.

Next will be the fitting of the outside frames to the tender footplate. I'm not thinking beyond that.

Brian
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Having had a few days away (including a trip to see the "Mary Rose" and "HMS Warrior" - both stunning and well worth the entrance fee) there's not been a great deal of progress. However.....

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Two bits of 1mm copper soldered to a length of scrap brass and filed down. Pretty hard work and about as enjoyable as watching paint dry. However, I speeded (sped?) things up by fitting a sanding drum in the Dremel and, using the piece of Contiboard as a table, pushed the wires under the spinning drum, which made it all a lot quicker. The overall thickness was checked after each pass and was surprisingly consistent, but the process was completed by draw filing to even up any significant digs.

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Here's the result, separated from it's backing. It is very good, and a process I will be using in future so once again being a member of WT has paid off and thank you Scale7JB.

This half round is now standing by, ready for soldering to the tender top and the coal rails.

Told you I was learning stuff.

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Now a demonstration of real progress. In fact a lump of fixed together metal which looks a bit like a tender. Quite a lot more to do but it looks as though something recognisable might be achievable. Just a comment that the outside frames are actually too short to fit between the buffer beam and drag box by a couple of mm. Not a huge issue as I can fill with brass scrap and solder, added to which the tender steps will be in front of one end. I'll also check the ride height later - the sprung horn blocks have adjustment screws. (Note brake gear is yet to be fitted although it is made and ready to go).

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So I'm now on to the coal rails. These are the components as provided. Clearly the back plate is intended to go across the back of the coal space on the tender with the coal rails wrapped around it, giving a right angle corner. However, the coal rails of the prototype are radiused around the corners approximating to the same radius as the tender rear. See a later picture to show how I'm planning on getting round this. The strips of plain metal with the shaped ends are intended to be the coal rail infills and should join with the coal rail back plate.

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So here's the dry run. The infill strips are both too short (or the back plate is not long enough) and they are also not deep enough to cover te coal rails. You'll notice the gap between the infill strips and the back plate and also that the infill strips don't cover the whole of the depth of the coal rails. (If in doubt see the earlier prototype photo).

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This shows the coal rails with a piece of brass strip of a better width underneath and demonstrating how new back plates could be made to fit.

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And finally the new coal rail backing pieces cut from the brass strip to match the ends of the coal rails and with the ends shaped, the tender coal rail back with the corners shaped and the coal rails themselves bent to an approximation (a close approximation!) of the corner shape. I will file the back piece so that the join between the side backing pieces and the coal rail back comes at a vertical stanchion which should help to disguise it. There is also no provided means of joining the coal rails to the tender body and I'll use some "T" section brass at the positions of some of the vertical stanchions to make the join. Those in the corners should cover the joins between the newly made backing pieces and the coal rail back. I've no prototype pictures of the tender top so I'm guessing about the fitting of the coal rails to a degree.

Only footsteps, beading, interior fittings, brake column, tender filler, buffers (to purchase at the Reading Trade Show), lamp irons, couplings, Westinghouse, vacuum and heating pipes, brake assemblies and coal rails to go. Shouldn't take more than a month at the current rate of progress.......

Brian

PS. Just remembered that I also have to make and find a way of fitting the hand rails at the tender front (I already have ideas for this) and the doors which, on the "K" are fitted to the tender.
 
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oldravendale

Western Thunderer
How can something so small give so much pleasure? (As the actress said to the Bishop, stirring her tea with her wooden leg).

I am sooooo chuffed with this latest bit of work. What I'm about to describe has taken three full afternoons but has given me real satisfaction. The only part yet to complete is the clip on the inside of the doors which, I imagine, acted as a clamp around the loco cab hand rails. This can be seen on the photo below.

The kit provides doors to go on the tender. These are unusual as they are fitted on the tender and open outwards. (Whether there were ever any issues reported of these fouling the loading gauge is not, to my knowledge, reported). The "K" is not the only Brighton loco to use this pattern of doors as they are definitely also on the Atlantics, and therefore probably on other classes too. Inevitably the kit gives no help about how the doors are laid out, nor the location of the front hand rails. Neither are there any etched holes in the tender footplate (and anyway, if there were, judging from previous experience, they'd have been in the wrong place). In fact the tender GA is not the greatest help either.

32341.  Three Bridges Shed.  5 Aug 1962.  Copyright Ernie's Railway Photos - Copy.jpg

This is copyright Ernies Railway Archive and is included as part of my research material.

I therefore studied photos. In almost every photo, including those of the locos in service, the doors are open. The one above is particularly good in showing the tender hand rail and the mounting for the doors.

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Using this and other photos I scaled the approximate positions of each. I used 1mm angle soldered to the front inside tender top with the right angle filed back where it was fitted so that I could drill through the right angle at the calculated position of the hand rail. The footplate was drilled in the corresponding position for an 0.7mm wire.

I soldered 1mm OD, 0.5mm ID brass tube to the doors just at the edge. A small strip of brass was soldered to the inside of the tender front and bent to a right angle. Using the tender doors to provide a precise location a similar piece of brass tube was soldered to the strip of brass on the tender front. The pictures above are of the dry run which showed that the doors needed to be a bit further back. It was an easy matter to bend the brass strips a bit further back so that the brass tube was in line with the tender body front. Once I was comfortable with the location I drilled the footplate for an 0.5mm wire.

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Above is the whole assembly soldered up, except for the wires to hold the doors in place as, once soldered, these will make the door fittings permanent and I need to be able to remove the doors so that I can build their internal fittings. I'm planning for the internl fittings to work so that the doors can be clipped to the tender hand rails.

Once the cab doors are completed I'll fit the beading around the tender body which will also cover the tender extensions to the hand rails.

Brian
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Good stuff Dad!

That photo you posted is interesting - has that tender really got snap-head rivets I wonder? I know a few of the E4s lost their tank covers and gained snap-head rivets, but I think that's the first time I've seen a Brighton tender with pimples.

Steph
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Y'know what? I'd not noticed that!

I'm very grateful to Roger Scanlon for previously demonstrating that there are three subtly different tenders with the "K"s. The one with 32337, as far as I can see, has the much more constrained rivet pattern along top and bottom only. However, in dealing with the doors I have studied every photo I have, which now runs in to getting on for 50, and those for the Atlantics. The layout at the front of the tenders on all photos where it's discernible very definitely shows the pattern of hand rails and doors to be very similar if not identical so I'm comfortable with the layout. The only thing I'm a bit uncertain about is whether the doors were dished so I've chosen to ignore that possibility as it's not easily noticed on any of the photos. There is, however, a works photo of 337 as built which gives pause for thought.

So far this build is one of the most stimulating I've ever dealt with as it's involved so much research (and advice from within and without this forum for which I am exceptionally grateful). Clearly nothing can be taken for granted.

Dad/Brian
 

Dikitriki

Flying Squad
So far this build is one of the most stimulating I've ever dealt with as it's involved so much research

Dad/Brian

That's a novel marketing philosophy - this kit is so bad that if you eventually manage to get it to look half-decent, you will have so much more satisfaction than if it went together properly :)

Richard
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
These are unusual as they are fitted on the tender and open outwards. (Whether there were ever any issues reported of these fouling the loading gauge is not, to my knowledge, reported).

It would have been unlikely the doors would have fouled the Brighton loading gauge as this is one of the most generous in the UK. Judging by the photograph the doors appear to sit within the tender flares.

LBSCR back head suitable for a "K"?

I don't know of a suitable back head but I did use Laurie Griffin's Marsh Atlantic back head fittings in my E4. Being a belpaire firebox would a LMS pre-group design be a suitable starting point (Hughes L&Y comes to mind)? R J Billington did work on the Midland Railway and could be possible L B Billington picked up some Midland influence whilst working under his father at Brighton Works.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thanks for your advice, David. I suspect the doors will be well beyond the tender flares if fully open, although if travelling loco first these would be pushed back against the tender side. If tender first, though, I'd have thought that the wind could get behind them. Perhaps they were sprung?

I'll have a look at the backhead you suggest -- it may be a starting point as you say. Alternatively I may have a go first at making a back head from the provided etch. Not my favourite approach but with some allocation of time and fettling everything has worked out so far. May be worth a go.

Best regards.

Brian
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
So, picking up from where we last left off.......

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I made a tender door catch and fixed it to the tender door. It worked, but was soldered solid. I want to make the catch work so that I can close the doors if want, but having proven that the "design" (ho ho :))) works I determined to produce a catch for each door which will work.

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I looked at the drawing which is regrettably truncated at the end of the door, but which makes it appear that the catch is approximately in the centre and high on the door.

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This picture seems to confirm it. (Copyright Roger Carpenter, reproduced for research purposes only)

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So, door catches made. The strip used is a bit wider at about 0.9mm than in the first effort at 0.7mm, as that had a tendency to split around the drilled holes. The clips were made as a pair by soldering the strip together and separating after shaping the ends and drilling the holes. The clips have been built up using solder mask to protect those areas which I wanted to avoid soldering solid again. Compared with the pictures this clip is too wide but the practicalities outweigh the authenticity here. The pins are brass dress making pins with the heads filed down. But these clips work!!!!!

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Here is one of the doors fitted to the tender with a working clip. Please note here that the kit provides two doors with no means of fixing. I've probably taken this too far, but now we have doors which work and working clips to ensure they can close if required. Including the tender fixings each door comprises an additional ten parts - we must be mad!:mad:

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Then I was catching up with my as yet unread "Southern Way" mags and came across this picture of the tender doors of a Brighton Atlantic. The door catch is clearly offset towards the loco. Was this the case on the tenders for the "K"s? I believe, from photos and the drawing, that the catch was in the centre of the doors for the "K" tenders. Does anyone have any further thoughts? After three afternoons of work to build and fit these I'm not inclined to remove them without a very significant reason.

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Next is the fitting of the coal rails. Here's the dry run, with the blanking plates fitted behind the rails. I'll now add the fixing stanchions and start the beading on the coal rails and the tender top.

Brian
 
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