Building an MMP RMB - a box of delights

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
Force the sods in!


:))

Thanks for checking your drawing, David. It is a mystery, to be sure. Still, while I won't exactly force the sods in, but I ease the slots over the bogie crossbeam intersections and make sure the remaining alignments aren't affected.

I do have the largest hold'n'fold. I think I was trying to read more into the diagram. After a couple of tweaks of the specs, it made more sense with just the two main folds! Just going to run a drop of solder down the "flappy bit" to prevent me inadvertently damaging it, then I can use the truss as an alignment jig.
 

djparkins

Western Thunderer
What alchemy is this? :eek:

I folded up the ends of part 8, as well as the belly truss angle. It still bows. I think I can see what's awry, and the simple fix is to widen one end slot where it intersects with the bogie crossbeam.

Still not sure where things are amiss, though. :oops:

Don't forget Posting #96
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
Don't forget Posting #96


You're the second person to say that to me today! I'm obviously suffering selective amnesia!

I'll post some piccies tomorrow, but I just wanted to mention that all bar the intermediate cross trusses have been fitted, using parts 8 and 9 with slightly widened slots as jigs. What a brilliant idea - it ought to be written up in the instructions. ;)
 

ZiderHead

Western Thunderer
Are there any etch attachment tabs on the ends of the central girder? If they are not completely removed it could make it just too long to fit properly?
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
Are there any etch attachment tabs on the ends of the central girder? If they are not completely removed it could make it just too long to fit properly?


The central girders are a butt join with back of the buffer beams. There are numerous parts designed to hold things in place, so not having a fixing like at that point isn't a problem.

I have to say, after my earlier hiccup, things have gone very smoothly. This is the kind of kit where you can while away an hour or two fitting two or three tiny parts, and when you look up you've done a fair amount of work after all.
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
That was a good day's modelling.

One important point to remember in this kit is the drawings are always orientated so the dynamo end is to the left. The floor web etch is annotated to this effect on its top surface, and I made a small felt pen mark on the underside to make it easier to spot while the current working is all upside down. It's important to keep an eye on where the dynamo end of the underframe is, although to all intents and purposes it is symmetrical until the sole bars are fitted.

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This was the situation at close of play yesterday. The longitudinal girders had been formed, and with their help the three central crossmembers had been fitted.

In the cold light of day, I decided the crossmembers needed to be tidied up, so off they came and they were refitted with a bit more care!

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After easing the slots over the bogie crossmembers, fitting the longitudinals became quite easy. Even without being soldered in place, it's quite staggering how much stiffness they impart to the underframe web.

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Like much of the underframe, there's a fair amount of lamination involved in the crossmembers. Here are parts 6, the intermediate crossmembers where the fish belly truss angles up to the bogie mountings. I elected to laminate the various parts while the main etch was still held in its fret, for ease of handling in the main. The instructions say I should do this once the crossmembers are fitted to the floor web, which is perfectly doable, but a lot more fiddly than doing it this way. It also helped with cleaning things up, as I'm aiming to keep the soldering as clean as possible as I work. The crossmember etches here have six parts sweated in place each, as have the central crossmembers.

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All the crossmembers are now in place. At this stage, I should have been fixing the angle sections (actually flat sections, but which make up the T-shape of the crossmember angles) but I left them off with good reason. Once all the soldering was tidied up, and things were checked for squareness, I formed and fitted the sole bars.

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As you can imagine, the sole bars are nice long etches that have to be folded neatly to 90 degrees. My Hold & Fold isn't big enough to do this in one hit, and I currently don't have bending bars large enough to handle this size (guess what's been added to my ever-growing shopping list!), so I had to extemporise.

What you see above is a 24in steel ruler, a length of aluminium angle which has a nice square edge everywhere (I checked), and some clamps. You can make out the etch clamped in place. What I did was to gently bend the etch, working along its length using just bare thumbs, to an angle of roughly 10 degrees or so. It was surprisingly easy to do this. Once the bend had begun, I attacked it gently with the hide mallet, working from the centre, allowing the etch to bend a little further each pass, until the whole length was completed.

I suppose, inevitably, a slight curvature was formed along the length, but it wasn't enough that gently straightening with finger pressure couldn't solve it.

The sole bars are handed, in that one has a mounting lug for the dynamo bracket. This is why it's important to keep a note of which end is which on the floor as you build it.

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Skipping ahead a little, I've soldered the sole bars in place. That sounded easy, didn't it? Well, it wasn't that hard.

The sole bars have shallow tabs at regular intervals along the entire length, with matching slots in the floor web. I tinned the tabs and slots, and carefully spot soldered an end, then a centre, then the other end, and then worked away at the other points. Working on an old glass kitchen cutting board, which is just long enough to lay the work flat as instructed, and using the longitudinals to stiffen the floor and keep it fairly flat while I worked, one side was fitted.

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Here you can see the solder dabs coinciding with the slots and tabs. Once I'd finished this side, I turned the whole thing over, and worked along the upper edge, to seat the tabs properly. I was very aware that heat would cause buckling and stretch, so I worked as quickly as I could to get the solder to flow and make a joint without lingering.

I repeated the process on the other sole bar, then cleaned up the exterior faces with a fine file.

IMG_7498.jpg

It's starting to come together very nicely now. Best Beloved commented that it was going together very much like the real thing did. Longitudinals are still not fixed in place, but the whole unit is now quite stiff and I feel confident in handling it without risk of damage. One reason for fitting the sole bars at this point was to aid with positioning the T-section detail on the crossmembers. Things still to do are the stiffeners on the longitudinals, but I think that's a job for another day.

IMG_7499.jpg
 

djparkins

Western Thunderer
Like much of the underframe, there's a fair amount of lamination involved in the crossmembers. Here are parts 6, the intermediate crossmembers where the fish belly truss angles up to the bogie mountings. I elected to laminate the various parts while the main etch was still held in its fret, for ease of handling in the main. The instructions say I should do this once the crossmembers are fitted to the floor web, which is perfectly doable, but a lot more fiddly than doing it this way.

Heather -

Nice Work.

To cross-refer to another thread - it becomes a matter of choice I suppose, as I would have fitted the overlays with cyanoacrylate after the main structure was soldered up. But there are many ways of arriving at a similar outcome!

Regards,

DJP
 
S

SteveO

Guest
Just to throw an idle thought into the hat, what is the difference between this Mk1 underframe and that of something like a Derby Lightweight or 105? As far as I'm aware, the Lightweight used a conventional design and the same sectional steel as Mk1s so would probably look very similar, and the 105 used (essentially) whole Mk1 coaches with underslung running gear and welded on cabs. Obviously the equipment slung underneath it would be different but would the basic design be the same?

Sorry Heather for the hijack!
 

AJC

Western Thunderer
Just to throw an idle thought into the hat, what is the difference between this Mk1 underframe and that of something like a Derby Lightweight or 105? As far as I'm aware, the Lightweight used a conventional design and the same sectional steel as Mk1s so would probably look very similar, and the 105 used (essentially) whole Mk1 coaches with underslung running gear and welded on cabs. Obviously the equipment slung underneath it would be different but would the basic design be the same?

Sorry Heather for the hijack!


The basic design of the frame of all these DMUs was rather different (almost totally so), the most obvious visual distinction being the lack of trusses; this is a heavy weight design. The bogies are completely different to your BR 1 as well. Some of the leading dimensions were similar but that was a function of the loading gauge; I reckon that's about it.

The Southern's DEMUs (Hastings units, Hampshire units, Berkshire and Oxted types, classes 201-7) were based on EMU practice and these really were Mk 1 coaches though the bogies were a bit different.

Adam
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
Today I spent adding more details to the underframe. I think I'm almost done with the main structure now, aside from the cross-truss T-section etches. Then it's sorting out where the air brake gubbins fits around the vac brake doings.

IMG_7508.jpg

I figured it would be a good idea to fit the brake vee and vac cylinder trunnion etches to the underframe. This is before I fit the longitudinal trusses, as they would sort of get in the way of soldering efforts. In this shot, you can see I've highlighted the shallow indentations on the sole bar etch that take the vee hanger, and the almost impossible to spot etched mark on the floor web etch that helps you line things up. The bottom (top, it's upside down) edge is a butt join, but this isn't a problem with the centre of the etch being held in the triple slots.

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This is the result, before cleaning up. I've made a point of cleaning up as I go. This is partly to avoid a messy clean-up later, but it helps me verify a good solder joint. If it's not a good joint, the part comes away while I'm scraping with sharp things, brass or glass scratch brush - something I'd rather happen at this stage than further into the build where it would be a right royal pain to fix.

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While the long trusses were still on the bench, I fitted the vertical stiffeners, and the triangular plates at the bogie end. The underframe is really beginning to look like a model of the real thing at this stage.

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The time came to fix the long trusses to the frame permanently. Although both assemblies are very similar in appearance, they are handed - a fact I had overlooked. A moment's noggin scratching and I noted some identifying marks. Note the tab on the sole bar, for the dynamo fitting. On the truss, you can see I've marked a half-etch line and a small hole. What you can't see is two vertical lines on the other side of the truss. All these are to help align the dynamo bracket. While it would still be possible to fit the dynamo with the other frame in this location, why make life harder than it already is?

The other arrow shows how I have run a fillet of solder along folded half-etch to give it some resistance against accidental bending.

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This is the same end from the other side, and you can see the two vertical lines on the further truss. Note that I haven't run a solder fillet along the entire length of the truss to floor web join. At this stage, I have fixed strategic points at each end: by the buffer beam and just behind the bogie cross-trusses. The structure is very strong now, but as you can see there is some slight misalignment of the long trusses. Once I've done some more fiddly bits, I'll solder at a few more points along this area, bearing in mind that lingering too long will cause the parts to buckle with heat. I think I'll use the same process I adopted for the sole bar fixing earlier, which is several spots of solder to just hold things together.

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Again, you can see how the long truss doesn't quite meet the floor web, and that I need to fit the T-section tops (bottoms!) to the cross-trusses.

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The final stage for today was to add the main truss angles which make it up to a full I-beam shape. No doubt I could have glued these in, but I've opted to solder for robustness. There is an edge-to-edge butt join, but this is helped by the small cross beam you can see. I'd originally left these out while I was fitting and refitting the long trusses, as they were vulnerable to damage. I realised these parts would actually help support the long parts I was attempting to solder, and there was no reason to leave them out any more! A proper :rolleyes: moment.

Now, this is as far as things have got today. Once the T-sections are added, it's on with the buffer beam details, drag box, brake and dynamo parts, I think.

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It won't be long before it'll be on wheels, I reckon. :thumbs:
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
Heather,

Looking very nice, the temptation for yet another distraction will have to be resisted. I noticed your comment about cleaning up the solder joints and I think you could save quite a lot of time by not needing to clean them up. I am not sure what flux you are using but if you apply more flux, say Carrs green label, to the solder blobs in the first photo (or the others) and apply more heat the solder will flash into the joints and leave at most a thin film on the surface of the brass. Then nothing more than a quick rub with a glass fibre brush will leave it all tidy with almost no effort, and inside the channels it wouldn't even need the glass fibre brush. Then a quick rinse under the tap at the end of each session.
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
I am not sure what flux you are using but if you apply more flux, say Carrs green label


I'm a red label user, but I take on what you say. I'm finding my technique is getting better as the build goes on, and later joints have needed very little attention. :thumbs:

I have to say it's an enjoyable build. It might take a while for some of the diagrams to make sense, and it can be a tough job keeping your place in the text, but once you get the idea it all goes together very well.
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
I recommend trying the green label flux on brass, you may be surprised how much difference it makes. I am not sure if I should admit it but the MMP etches are so clean when they arrive that I don't bother cleaning them before soldering - the green label flux does all the work. I do clean brass before soldering if it has tarnished or has other residues on it.
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
once start an etch kit i go over the whole lot in fine wet and dry, this also gives it a good key for painting.


That would an interesting exercise on the Mk1 truss assembly. :confused::))

I'll get hold of some green label flux, on recommendation, and give it a go. :thumbs:

I've got by with red label for so many years. I think it's partly because that's what I started out using (i.e. what was in the workshop when I first picked up a soldering iron and was shown how to use it) so inertia set it, and because it doesn't seem to have quite the same level of noxious fumes other fluxes seem to have. I had to use some yellow label a while ago, and heavens to Betsy did that make my eyes smart! :eek:
 
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