Building the JLTRT Rebuilt Royal Scot

Discussion in 'Area 51' started by oldravendale, 21 May 2020.

  1. Martin Shaw

    Martin Shaw Western Thunderer

    I'm sorry but a bit of boasting on my part. In 2012 the SRPS were going to run a Fife circle tour with Union of South Africa, unfortunately this loco was poorly so we got Scots Guardsman instead. I was the loco liason guy and as a thank you for my assistance I was offered a ride on the footplate from Boness to Lockerbie, including the first steam passage of Princes St Gardens and Waverley. Somewhere after Carstairs I was given the shovel, and whilst I know what I'm doing with said implement, the firebox is enormous, I think 11' long. I coped just but it wasn't very stylish. Later that year I went from Perth to Inverness, I think we cleared Slochd at about 38mph and Drumochter in the high twenties with I suppose 11 or 12 behind. Thrilling stuff, these days getting up the steps onto the footplate is to be considered carefully before attempting. Needless to say my affection for a rebuilt Scot is high, I look forward to seeing your efforts Brian, no doubt up to the high standard demonstrated on other builds.
    Best wishes
  2. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    Thank you for the photo of the nameplate Len. That'll be useful for checking the nameplate when I get it (have to order it first, of course).:)

    That's really good to know as background, Martin. From everything I've read it appears that sometimes crews felt let down by the locos - until they were tested and it was realised that they were regularly being asked to attempt trains well beyond their power class. I was very fond of them; they were regulars on the WCML and always impressive. Your notes refer to some very considerable performance, though. I suspect that our main line preserved locos tend to be in much better order than they were when in regular use.

  3. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    South of Crewe, there wasn't much that a rebuilt Scot couldn't handle that a Princess Royal or Coronation could, except maybe the very heaviest boat trains from Holyhead or Liverpool. Granted they would be working in the higher performance bracket, where as the Pacific's would have some spare, even so, from readings, they appear to keep time pretty well.

    They were upgraded in power class to 7P in the early 50's after their rebuilding as were the Patriots and Jubilees.

    I'd also dare to say that Crewe, Camden and possibly Edge Hill, kept their locos in pretty good shape in the mid 50's. I'm sure I've read somewhere that the Scots tended to wriggle their derriere at higher speeds, larger rear axle springs I think was the resolution.

    Much as I like rebuilt Scots the rebuilt Patriot has the edge for me aesthetically.
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  4. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    I remember the Scots, when on the WCML, as normally being clean, although that was true of most passenger locos on the WCML at that time - and, in fact, many of the mixed traffic locos too. At the London end of things the rot set in, I reckon, with the closure of Camden. I'm not suggesting that there were performance issues with the locos either. They were being asked to operate trains which were really loads for Coronations or Princesses. As you say, it gave them no spare capacity but it speaks well of the Scots that they were allocated to the heavier trains. At the time trains of 16 vehicles were not uncommon, and sometimes more. I remember well from my childhood stopping at stations and the train having to pull forward to ensure that all the vehicles had access to the platform.

    Their performance seemed to go down hill rapidly when maintenance standards slipped.

    I'd not argue about the aesthetic superiority of the Patriots, though, and they were good looking engines before they were rebuilt too.

  5. Len Cattley

    Len Cattley Western Thunderer

    Mickoo I have a video about the rebuilt Scots one person said the wiggle was that they were not balanced properly, when they were in the workshop they had to balance them, which made them better.

  6. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    Another question...... I note that there are acknowledged to be two plates on the rear of the 4000 G tender; the tender number and water capacity plate. The drawing on the final page of the appropriate LMS Loco Profiles confirms this. However the two photos of the rear of the tender in "The Book Of...." show three plates. Does anyone have any idea what that third plate would be and also is there a way of establishing whether the third plate would have been on tender 9043 in 1962?

  7. Dave Holt

    Dave Holt Western Thunderer

    Funny you should ask that as I'm having the same struggle with plates on the all welded tender for my Black 5.
    On tenders with three plates, from the top they are:- rectangular LMS number plate, oval builders/date plate and oval water capacity plate (photo of fully rivetted tender 9365, built 1936).
    Tenders with just two plates have upper LMS number & date plate and lower capacity plate. This latter can be either oval (photo of tender 9174) or , more commonly, rectangular (photo of 10276, built 1944).
    Photos appear in the Wild Swan profile book for Black 5's, Part 1 and photo supplement.
    I know that's not specific to your chosen tender, but might be of some help.
    I note that your chosen tender previously ran behind 46129 from 1936 to 03/54 and then straight to 46127. Perhaps you could also search for photos of 46129?
  8. Lancastrian

    Lancastrian Western Thunderer


    From what I can ascertain, it was only the pre-war Crewe built 4000 gallon tenders which exhibited three separate plates on the rear.
    Tender 9043 was built at NBL in 1934 so it would only display two plates.
    Rectangular plate: LMS, tender number, year built
    Oval plate: Water capacity

    Hope this helps.

  9. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    Good thinking there, Dave! Thank you. I'll have a look at 46129. In fact "The Book of..." should enable me to trace the history of the tender throughout its life which gives a few further opportunities for research.

    I'm idly wondering (no reply needed) why some had two and some had three plates.

  10. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    Hi Ian, and thanks for yours which crossed my latest meanderings. You've solved the problem! Perfect. I need search no further.

  11. Lancastrian

    Lancastrian Western Thunderer


    Welded tenders likely to have two rectangular plates.

    Last edited: 6 June 2020
  12. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    Thanks for the addition, Ian. The depth of knowledge on here never ceases to amaze me!

  13. daifly

    daifly Western Thunderer

    If you can get hold of a copy of LMS Review No.2 pub Wild Swan, Stanier Standard Tenders are thoroughly dealt with.
    Lancastrian likes this.
  14. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Just for info, the new Royal Scot tenders (three batches) were not ordered for Royal Scots but Jubilees, well they were ordered for Scots but tacked onto the Jubilee build order for accounting.

    These tenders then went to the Royal Scots and as such had to have the footplate adjusted to match the older engines higher footplate. This change restricted them almost exclusively to remain within the Royal Scot class.

    The displaced Scot tenders were then transferred to the new Jubilees.

    As such, any Scot tender should be the same with regards to the tank plates etc, there may be variations within the three batches but being as they were all built within a five month period in 1936 I think that'd be unlikely.

    129 received tender 9043 in Jun 36, sadly Crewe did not keep an accurate record of tender changes, therefore it is highly probably that it could of ended up with another at some point.
    BR Tony likes this.
  15. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    It was started today - not a full afternoon but at least it's started.

    Here's the kit - there's a hell of a lot of it! The wheels are, as mentioned previously, AGH and the two pairs here are purely representative. They are back in their original wrappings now to minimise the risk of corrosion. That boiler casting is extremely heavy. The brass and white metal castings look to be of good quality. Most of the etches are good and clean although there's one sheet which is quite corroded. It'll clean up well enough before soldering starts.

    The instructions are novel to my eyes. They comprise quite detailed isometric drawings with arrows to describe the bends. There's no list of parts which would be helpful although there are part numbers which (in most cases) are etched in to the etched sheets. Unfortunately some of the smaller parts are not numbered and the only way to identify them seems to be by comparison with the drawing.

    I have no doubt that I'll be calling on David Boorman quite soon!

    In my normal fashion, in order to get a feel for the construction, I'm starting with the tender. The tender framework below is in one piece and is a really impressive and clever etch which makes up easily and well. If the rest of the kit components fir together as well as this part this will be a most enjoyable build.


  16. Martin Shaw

    Martin Shaw Western Thunderer

    Deleted, repost of previous.
  17. Steph Dale

    Steph Dale Western Thunderer


    While I think of it - have you got the 'SDK' (Super Detail Kit)? It'll be a big bag of lost wax castings probably labelled as Royal Scot SDK. If you have, now would be a good time to sort and identify all the castings, if you haven't it might be worth having a look at the MM1 'site and ordering them?

    Last edited: 30 June 2020
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  18. Ian@StEnochs

    Ian@StEnochs Western Thunderer

    I see you have a set of premier rods. On mine I used the etched motion which worked ok. The finished model is heavy due in no small part to the cast in weight in the boiler.
    BR Tony, Len Cattley, Brocp and 4 others like this.
  19. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    Thanks for the thought, Steph. Yes. I have the SDK. I'll start to separate the parts out but one of the problems with these instructions is that there's no description of the castings and my knowledge of such things is, as you know, not large. I have some very useful sectional trays which I'll label,use and, I guess, gradually build up my understanding of the parts.

    Ian - thanks for your comments too. I've not used Premier rods previously but they were in the kit when I bought it (complete as you see and second hand. The sound module is new and the wheels were another ebay purchase after which I sold on the Slater's versions. Oh, and the motor/gearbox from Ron Chaplin is from my stash). I may, however, use the etched motion in view of your comments.

    What are the experiences of etched vs Premier cast motion?

  20. Steph Dale

    Steph Dale Western Thunderer

    I suspect there's little guidance on where the SDK fittings go, either, which is why I thought of it.

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