Carriage Building - Steph 'does A Jenkinson'

JimG

Western Thunderer
Hi Steph, great work as usual:bowdown:. I cant remember were i read it or maybe someone suggested it, i cant remember:oops: but have you ever used a brass template for filing the window corners?. I have not tried it myself but have thought about it. I sometimes struggle to get the same corners when repeating windows:headbang:. The very small round file in the pic, where can i get one of those:confused:.

Cousins do small round files - 2.1mm ones on this page in the "Round (Rat tail)" menu, and 1mm ones in the "Round Extra Slim" menu. They are Vallorbe so be prepared for the prices. :)

http://www.cousinsuk.com/catalog/6/1078/1595.aspx

Here's a picture of the 1mm and 2.1mm files. I got a length of dowel and made handles for them and I store them in corrugated cardboard.

NeedleFiles.jpg

The rather hammered table they are sitting on is what I use to file window corners. I couldn't get on with David Jenkinson's method of holding the Plastikard between thumbnail and fingernail, so made a small table of ply top and 2" x 1" supports with a hole in it and the Plastikard is laid flat on the table with the file going vertically down through the hole. As you might deduce, this table gets used for about everything else - like using a square on thin plastic when the body of the square is thicker than your cutting mat , or as a wood base for soldering. I think I need a new bit of plywood. :)

Jim.
 

lancer1027

Western Thunderer
Cousins do small round files - 2.1mm ones on this page in the "Round (Rat tail)" menu, and 1mm ones in the "Round Extra Slim" menu. They are Vallorbe so be prepared for the prices. :)

http://www.cousinsuk.com/catalog/6/1078/1595.aspx

Here's a picture of the 1mm and 2.1mm files. I got a length of dowel and made handles for them and I store them in corrugated cardboard.

View attachment 8313

The rather hammered table they are sitting on is what I use to file window corners. I couldn't get on with David Jenkinson's method of holding the Plastikard between thumbnail and fingernail, so made a small table of ply top and 2" x 1" supports with a hole in it and the Plastikard is laid flat on the table with the file going vertically down through the hole. As you might deduce, this table gets used for about everything else - like using a square on thin plastic when the body of the square is thicker than your cutting mat , or as a wood base for soldering. I think I need a new bit of plywood. :)

Jim.
Thanks Jim, i will have a look at the link when i get the chance:thumbs:
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Hi Steph, great work as usual:bowdown:. I cant remember were i read it or maybe someone suggested it, i cant remember:oops: but have you ever used a brass template for filing the window corners?. I have not tried it myself but have thought about it. I sometimes struggle to get the same corners when repeating windows:headbang:. The very small round file in the pic, where can i get one of those:confused:.

Rob,

I find Jenkinson's method of filing the corners to be entirely adequate, I must confess I can't think how I could consistently use a brass template - aligning it would be a pain. It's certainly easier using Jenkinson's method than the technique I used to use: Drilling the corners and joining the edges with cuts.

The small round file was from Expo in an assorted pack of five small files of the usual shapes; round, square, 3-square, half round, flat (item 725-35, right hand side of this page). It was all of a fiver and damned useful. One of the advantages of working with plastic is that both materials and tools for working it are relatively affordable. I've got Vallorbe files for working brass but IMHO they're overkill for plastic. Expo tools can be obtained either direct or through most model shops.


Incidentally the larger (150mm) 'warding' files I also showed earlier are on the same page, bottom right hand corner...

Steph
 

28ten

Guv'nor
Looking at Jims im having a bit of file envy :) I do tend to use the cheapest files the most reserving my 2nd and 4th cut for best use
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Looking at Jims im having a bit of file envy :) I do tend to use the cheapest files the most reserving my 2nd and 4th cut for best use

I've got several (many?) sets of needle files as I replace mine on about a 5-yearly cycle. I start off with using them on brass and then cascade them down through whitemetal to steel. I tend to keep files for plastics seperately as I often prefer the files to be a somewhat coarser cut for working with plastic.

IMHO it's worth spending the money on decent 'brand' name files for working with brass, and although there are other brands than Vallorbe they are very consistent.

Steph
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Earwig-oh, time for an update...

Jim,

Thanks for the link to Cousins, I ordered one of their very fine (1mm dia) round needle files in second cut for an eye-watering £20. It was shipped today and was bought because I think it'll be pretty handy for doing the bolections on these two carriages.

In other news, I've been cracking on with these. Pressure on hobby time has meant that I've been concentrating more on modelling than the write-up, so this covers about a week's worth of activity all told. The first thing to deal with was where I inadvertently double-struck a door outline with the scrawker. Hombrol model filler was applied, and the following day I sanded the area with one of the cheap panel sanders I described in a previous thread. It was then re-scribed on the correct alignment:
IMG_8306.jpg

That done, I moved on to cutting out the winsdows in the supporting layer, which will form the sides of the Jenkinson box. Score round the outside with a scalpel and then hack a cross in the middle with a Stanley knife:
IMG_8308.jpg

Push through the cross to snap the aperture out on the score lines:
IMG_8309.jpg

And then you're ready to do any cleaning-up necessary:
IMG_8310.jpg


It didn't take me long to get the two sets of the inner sides done, although it didn't work out quite the full story. In the Nondescript Brake I inadvertently picked-up the wrong line when marking out, resulting in the guard's doors being off whack by half a door width. A little head-scratching has been required, but I think it'll be solvable:
IMG_8311.jpg

This quick view shows how the oversize cut-outs in the Jenkinson box layer correlate to the window cut-outs in the skin(s):
IMG_8312.jpg

After seperating out all the sides a chamfer was put into the lower edges and sides of the cut-outs, on the inner surface. A strip glued along the bottom helps with both strength and with forming the final shape in the side (as will be revealed in due course):
IMG_8317.jpg

We're then into assembling the box. This is built down from the underside of the roof, so the first job is to find a way to steady the roof. Two end panels (0.040" styrene) are also required. Here's the full kit for the Thanet:
IMG_8319.jpg

First job is to get the ends on, followed by one side:
IMG_8320.jpg

Before carefully mounting up the interior (aligning with compartment divisions and the corridor door:)
IMG_8322.jpg

Once together that's pretty much it. Make sure it's square and leave it somewhere for the solvent to evaporate away...

Steph
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Is anyone there...?

The needle file arrived from Cousins this morning. It's very fine:
IMG_8338.jpg

Two jobs today, the first was playing catch-up with the Nondescript Brake after leaving the patched sides overnight. As I was doing this I was thinking how much harder it was being than the corridor coach with its self-supporting interior. Anyway, here's the parts for the Nondescript, ready for erection:
IMG_8331.jpg

As before I started with the ends:
IMG_8332.jpg

And then a couple of the full-height partitions:
IMG_8333.jpg

Before balancing the sides (on the steel rule) and starting to glue them both in from the same (brake) end. You'll note random other spacers have been used to stop the formation of a wavy cantrail:
IMG_8335.jpg

So when glued up it looked like this - note that there are still a couple of spacers not fitted at this stage:
IMG_8337.jpg

On this one I had a slight problem with the top of the side not coming into really firm contact with the roof. The first method to try was this; loadsa weight and on glass overnight. If it doesn't work I'll glue a length of microstrip behind the roof/side seam. In the front of the shot is the Thanet, now with a cleaned-up and de-tabbed floor (Slater's) just dropped in for a trial fit, to my utter surprise it fits perfectly without any odd adjustments:
IMG_8336.jpg

Anyway, while this lot was setting I started with an experimental bolection - time to find out how well the new gadget would work out. This is the brake compartment toplight. A hideously small (and therefore tricky) little number. The main windows will be much easier. First the corners were dressed back with the new file to put fine radiuses in:
IMG_8340.jpg

And then the chamfer was put in using the slightly larger round file, at an angle. Just as Jenkinson describes:
IMG_8341.jpg

It needs another round of fiddlin' as it's far from perfect at the moment and was done very quickly (a few seconds). But, it shows there's some promise there. I know the trick is to do them all like this to get my 'hand in' and then have another go to get them really good and consistent. Oh and this is shown on your screen about 15x real size...

Steph
 

adrian

Flying Squad
Is anyone there...?
The needle file arrived from Cousins this morning. It's very fine:
Steph
I'm here! Please keep posting as it's facinating work, but for some reason the marking out of the sides reminds me of crib sheets from hut 6 .

I always like investing in tools and don't mind paying for quality, but £20 for a needle file! If it's helps the job in hand then great but would be nice to know if you think they're worth it.

Finally how many rolls of solder? I've got one roll like that half used and it's lasted me 20 years!
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Rob,

You've got rather fewer apertures to cut into your carriages as they're departmental vehicles, but the Ironclad I think you've got to do would otherwise be very similar in construction to the Thanet...

In the main, though, it's practise. Although I s'pose Peter Cowling could build the Ironclad for you; the ones I've seen him do have looked very well.

Steph
 

Simon

Flying Squad
Hmm, that's a point. To be honest though, I'm more worried about losing the ruddy thing...




Aw, shucks :oops:

Steph

Yup, I'm here and liking it too - that bolection bevelling was very neat:thumbs:

I will get back to "proper" modelling myself one day soon.....

Simon
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
I always like investing in tools and don't mind paying for quality, but £20 for a needle file! If it's helps the job in hand then great but would be nice to know if you think they're worth it.

Finally how many rolls of solder? I've got one roll like that half used and it's lasted me 20 years!

Adrian,
Well, to the first question and after concerted use for half an hour this evening the answer is a considered 'yes'. And many, many rolls of solder. I used to get through a roll like that in a year or two

Hi Steph, very nice. I wish i could get my appertures that clean and symetrical.

Rob,
Show and tell time - let's see if this helps...

After attaching the bolection to the skin, I carefully mark out the aperture and then cut it to this rough octagon. The horizontal cuts are done first, then the verticals and finally the corners. This can dislodge the bolection so before doing anything else I run a brushfull of solvent around the inside of the aperture and leave it to harden off overnight:
IMG_8345.jpg

The corners are then rounded with a small needle file in to the guide lines:
IMG_8346.jpg

I then start work from behind - there are two reasons for this, firstly the guide lines won't distract your eye and secondly, this is the aperture that remains when the front is shaped. I start by removing any cutting ridges or burrs from the window area (sand, scrape or dress with a file) and remove any 'rag' (fingernail, flick a file around inside the hole). The edges can then be trued up with a flat file and the corners tidied if required:
IMG_8348.jpg

Once happy the smallest file can be bought into play to put the corner radius in, again a flat file being used to blend/dress it all in nicely:
IMG_8349.jpg

And turning back to the front as we go, we can check that we haven't completely 'lunched' our guide lines. A sight along the back of the side will help confirm everything is in line:
IMG_8350.jpg

If we're doing a bolection, it can be shaped now using a small file; a larger size than the one used for radiusing the corners:IMG_8351.jpg

And, while on the subject of using needle files in corners, this usefull little diagram should have been included in Jenkinson's (IMHO). As deciding on a direction to twiddle the file as we're using it can influence where the file cuts deepest:
IMG_8352.jpg

Any good?

Steph
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Hi Steph, thats brilliant mate thanks. Helped me a lot:thumbs:. What blades do you use for the cutting/scribing.

Rob,

I hoped you'd find it useful - of course you're likely to find your own techniques exactly as I did after reading Jenkinson's book. But, it does show a way of doing it, and that it can be done. What's really cool about the Jenkinson approach is that it doesn't involve very much shaping or profiling of parts. And it's therefore pretty quick once you get going.

In terms of the blades, I'm currently using Swann-Morton #11 in a #3 handle. To be honest they're a bit fine for what's needed here and I'm going to try and pick up some #10A blades as I suspect they'll work a little better. Yes, I've been having the odd wavy line on parts I've had to cut through. I've also got a brass craft knife handle loaded with a #10 (curved) blade, which is used for scraping and/or where a little more heft is required when cutting through.


In other news:

This evening I seem to have worked out how to do Maunsell R4 carriages (including the flush-sided variants) which have caused me some thought-pain over the last few months. The main problem is that many have inset doors and/or guards compartments. Therefore finding a way that doesn't involve butting together two entirely seperate pieces has been an objective. Sooo, I've selected a suitable vehicle in the form of a 1935 stock Open Third (i.e. flush-sided vehicle with toplight ventilators, inset doors and not much of an interior) and was wondering if there's an appetite to see how this might work out? The construction is similar to, but a development of, the techniques found in the two vehicles currently in the 'shop.

If so, I'll be happy to cover in more detail any of the construction methods (apart from bolections - it hasn't got any!). Views/requests welcomed...

Hopefully a little more later this evening.

Steph
 

Old Buffer

Western Thunderer
Yes Pleeeeeze, keep them coming, especially the phots. Am learning a lot reading this thread as I have in mind to build some Mk1 coaches in "0", instead of converting the "toy" Lima ones I have.
There is 1 question though, what is your opinion of trying to build them in thin timber, 1/8" for the floor, 1/16" for the sides and 1/32" for the roof.
Alan
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Yes Pleeeeeze, keep them coming, especially the phots. Am learning a lot reading this thread as I have in mind to build some Mk1 coaches in "0", instead of converting the "toy" Lima ones I have.
There is 1 question though, what is your opinion of trying to build them in thin timber, 1/8" for the floor, 1/16" for the sides and 1/32" for the roof.

Alan,

The only problem I can see is that using these sorts of techniques the windows would be inset by the thickness of the sides - but they would take the curve better. I used to build Bulleid coaches in 4mm by re-skinning Lima and Mainline Mk1s and fiddling the underframes (before the Bachmann ones were available). The skins were made from shellac-doped paper and this would be a thought if you're not keen working in plasticard.

The main problem you've got with Mk1 stock is that the curve continues through the window area. At least you haven't got to worry about curving the glazing though; the latter is required for most Bulleid stock. To be honest I'm not sure that the Mk1 lends itself to this type of construction at all; Jenkinson implies that his techniques are only really good for panelled stock. My tweaking of his method may well have got us as far as flush-sided stock (we'll see), but a Mk1 would need some head scratching I think. It'll be interesting to see what you think though, fresh eyes tend to interpret methods differently and you may have already found a workable solution, in which case I'd love to know what you think!

I'm having a think about building a model of the Bulleid sleeping car (s100s) at some point in the future. This would be in the prototypical material (plywood), which would probably involve a frame of 1/8" or 1/16" ply and 0.4mm ply stretched over the top as the skin. The eave section could be carved basswood. And I'd probably get most of it laser cut if Cynric didn't mind. Otherwise I'll probably be sticking (literally) with plasticard. Oh, and badgering various manufacturers for the stock we want.

I should also say that although I find it very enjoyable I don't build carraiges for 'fun'. I'm building these vehicles because otherwise our 1948-50 Southern Region layout would be devoid of coaching stock! Other than the Slater's Maunsells there's precious little we can use - the Slater's carriages don't provide the right vehicles for the sets we need either (although they are correct for some, including those working off-region; even if they need a little tweaking to be 100% correct for inter-regional stock). Bulleid stock wasn't in widespread use until a little later and the Mk1 coach was still a mere twinkle in the Rolling Stock Committee's collective eyes.

Not that there are any decent kits of Bulleid stock anyway! :headbang:

Steph
 
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