Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
Yes please from me too Steph.
This is a fascinating thread. I have never had too much luck with scratchbuilding in plasticard but after seeing your techniques I am tempted to try again at some point.
Carriage Building - Steph 'does A Jenkinson'
- Thread starter Steph Dale
- Start date
Yes please from me too Steph.
This is a fascinating thread. I have never had too much luck with scratchbuilding in plasticard but after seeing your techniques I am tempted to try again at some point.
Old Buffer
Western Thunderer
Steph,
Thanks for your opinion, I will give it a try though and when I start I will post some phots of the mess I make.
There will probably be a bit of a delay before I start as I have promised myself I have to finish the jinty first.
Alan
Thanks for your opinion, I will give it a try though and when I start I will post some phots of the mess I make.
There will probably be a bit of a delay before I start as I have promised myself I have to finish the jinty first.
Alan
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
Just a quick 'heads up', the vehicle I'm now working out (drawings enlarged to 7mm - some dimensions already worked out) is one of these: Maunsell '35 stock Open Third, as preserved on the Bluebell - number 1309. As you can see the techniques used would lend themselves to LMS Stanier Period II and Period III stock, most of the GWR's Collett and Hawksworth vehicles and even a few of the later steel-sided Thomson LNER carriages. BR MkII and MkIII stock, together with most of the current range of DMU/EMU stock could use similar techniques.
What I'm less certain about are those vehicles that have a continuous curve from cantrail to floor such as Bulleid or Mk1 stock, but we'll see...
And I've now got all the corners with teeny-tiny radii to all the windows for the two currently under construction. Tomorrow I'll need to buy some more Mek (pretty much down to vapour on the current bottle) and shape the bolections. Once that's done I can laminate the sides and then move on with the assembly.
Steph
What I'm less certain about are those vehicles that have a continuous curve from cantrail to floor such as Bulleid or Mk1 stock, but we'll see...
And I've now got all the corners with teeny-tiny radii to all the windows for the two currently under construction. Tomorrow I'll need to buy some more Mek (pretty much down to vapour on the current bottle) and shape the bolections. Once that's done I can laminate the sides and then move on with the assembly.
Steph
Phill Dyson
Western Thunderer
Keep posting your developments Steph, like Alan & Rob I am finding plenty of inspiration on your thread
Old Buffer
Western Thunderer
Steph,
Youv'e given me food for thought with your last posting, I may forget the Mk1's and have a go at the Thompson's, there were quite a few still about during the middle 50's and 60's.
Alan
Youv'e given me food for thought with your last posting, I may forget the Mk1's and have a go at the Thompson's, there were quite a few still about during the middle 50's and 60's.
Alan
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
I haven't done a great deal with the main part of the carriages over the weekend - unfortunately I've just been too busy.
However, this afternoon I made up some test sections that covered the current two, as well as a set of them for the Open Third; more of which anon...
In order to check a couple of things I decided to start by making a test piece for the current vehicles as I already had high confidence these would hold together. The techniques and material thicknesses aren't much different from those quoted by Jenkinson. Of course the differences in the way I make up my coaches is that I use styrene (rather than wood) for the roofs and attach them to the sides as a way of adding strength to the model - Jenkinson keeps his roofs removable.
I made the test pieces up from the materials I'd hope to use for real. So the bulkheads are 0.060" and the rest is to the dimensions I've already quoted the for the box and sides. One change from the production version is that I didn't use SheetZAP for the laminations, but assembled the lot from Plasticweld (run out of Mek - local model shop being uncharacteristicly useless about getting any more):
This is pretty much where we're up to as regards the internal structure. There are two ribs to go along the sides of the boxes (which'll be done this evening) which are from Plastruct strip. The laminated skins can be seen too:
Once the structure had gone hard, it was time to attach the skins. This phase shouldn't be rushed and it helps if some of the tumblehome is formed before fitting. I didn't because I wanted to see what happened! First up is to attach at the cantrail and waist, then leave it to harden:
Using the extended side as a tab the tumblehome can then be pulled in, revealing the carriage's subtle outline. And then the tabs are trimmed off. I've left one on this section to show people at shows...::
So the R1 profile worked out much as expected. Onto the R4. I started with the narrow/brake section as the tumblehome on these sides is once again very subtle. I used two slightly different techniques to see what happened; the one that worked was marked on the section:
It was then a case of doing the full section R4 profile for the compartment/saloon areas of these vehicles. I did a test with one side having a 0.020" inner and outer skin. The other side had a 0.030" inner skin so I could see what happened with a 0.010" outer skin. It is this latter approach that will allow me to make flush-sided coaches. And it seems to have worked pretty well, although it does need an extra set of ribs to support the very thin side in the tumblehome. And it was working splendidly until I dropped a small drop of Plasticweld down each rib: the 0.020" side worked fine, but the 0.010" side developed some definate 'facets' to the tumblehome. The solution, I think, will be to use runny/liquid superglue for these runs in future - and make sure that there's as much shape in the skin before it's fixed in place:
So, a cautious note of success for the ultra-thin bodyside. And ready for when it comes to do it for real, I thought it handy to mark up the rib dimensions on the back of each section:
And that, in a nutshell was Jenkinson's 'big idea'; subtle shapes formed without any complicated cutting; it's all strips and rectangles. The value of doing a couple of test pieces is enormous. For a start you can drop the section on to your drawing, check the shape of the roof reinforcing ribs (useful for vac-form roofs, where you'll probably want more than just one rib) and 'tweak' the shapes and sizes before cutting anything complicated. You can also test seats, floors, glazing and roofs if these are bought-in items. It would even help provide something to measure up for many of the significant dimensions.
Not a bad afternoon's work. Tomorrow evening I'll have another look at the Open Third and see how I can translate the drawings and these ideas into three dimensions.
Steph
However, this afternoon I made up some test sections that covered the current two, as well as a set of them for the Open Third; more of which anon...
In order to check a couple of things I decided to start by making a test piece for the current vehicles as I already had high confidence these would hold together. The techniques and material thicknesses aren't much different from those quoted by Jenkinson. Of course the differences in the way I make up my coaches is that I use styrene (rather than wood) for the roofs and attach them to the sides as a way of adding strength to the model - Jenkinson keeps his roofs removable.
I made the test pieces up from the materials I'd hope to use for real. So the bulkheads are 0.060" and the rest is to the dimensions I've already quoted the for the box and sides. One change from the production version is that I didn't use SheetZAP for the laminations, but assembled the lot from Plasticweld (run out of Mek - local model shop being uncharacteristicly useless about getting any more):
This is pretty much where we're up to as regards the internal structure. There are two ribs to go along the sides of the boxes (which'll be done this evening) which are from Plastruct strip. The laminated skins can be seen too:
Once the structure had gone hard, it was time to attach the skins. This phase shouldn't be rushed and it helps if some of the tumblehome is formed before fitting. I didn't because I wanted to see what happened! First up is to attach at the cantrail and waist, then leave it to harden:
Using the extended side as a tab the tumblehome can then be pulled in, revealing the carriage's subtle outline. And then the tabs are trimmed off. I've left one on this section to show people at shows...::
So the R1 profile worked out much as expected. Onto the R4. I started with the narrow/brake section as the tumblehome on these sides is once again very subtle. I used two slightly different techniques to see what happened; the one that worked was marked on the section:
It was then a case of doing the full section R4 profile for the compartment/saloon areas of these vehicles. I did a test with one side having a 0.020" inner and outer skin. The other side had a 0.030" inner skin so I could see what happened with a 0.010" outer skin. It is this latter approach that will allow me to make flush-sided coaches. And it seems to have worked pretty well, although it does need an extra set of ribs to support the very thin side in the tumblehome. And it was working splendidly until I dropped a small drop of Plasticweld down each rib: the 0.020" side worked fine, but the 0.010" side developed some definate 'facets' to the tumblehome. The solution, I think, will be to use runny/liquid superglue for these runs in future - and make sure that there's as much shape in the skin before it's fixed in place:
So, a cautious note of success for the ultra-thin bodyside. And ready for when it comes to do it for real, I thought it handy to mark up the rib dimensions on the back of each section:
And that, in a nutshell was Jenkinson's 'big idea'; subtle shapes formed without any complicated cutting; it's all strips and rectangles. The value of doing a couple of test pieces is enormous. For a start you can drop the section on to your drawing, check the shape of the roof reinforcing ribs (useful for vac-form roofs, where you'll probably want more than just one rib) and 'tweak' the shapes and sizes before cutting anything complicated. You can also test seats, floors, glazing and roofs if these are bought-in items. It would even help provide something to measure up for many of the significant dimensions.
Not a bad afternoon's work. Tomorrow evening I'll have another look at the Open Third and see how I can translate the drawings and these ideas into three dimensions.
Steph
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
Steph, I had a brainstorm for forming roof sectionsI can half cut lines into the back of Rowmark and it can be curved around a former. I have just been experimenting with a Siphon roof and it seems to work pretty well
Okay, that's interesting. I must admit though that I like the Slater's roofs for Maunsell stock...
Actually, I've just had a brainstorm myself - there'll be another section / carriage wall along in a moment.
Steph
Old Buffer
Western Thunderer
Keep them coming, it's getting more interesting with each post.
Alan
Alan
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
Alan,
Thank you very much for your comment.
Okay - try this then. On the left hand side of this section I cut off the original side/overlay in 0.010" styrene and replaced it with the section shown here. This consists of a 0.010" outer skin (i.e. very thin/'flush') with a o.o30" inner skin. So thickness-wise it matches the 0.020"+0.020" of the other side (and to be used on the R1 stock currently under construction.). What I've then done is joined that to a 0.020" section to form the tumblehome - the join takes place below the window line and is reinforced with a strip of 0.020" styrene, which is 4mm wide. In a full model I'd be very likely to use bought-in strip, rather than cutting my own. For a start it would be more consistent. But there it is - problem solved:
I'm now quietly confident that we can make this flush-sided nonsense work.
Steph
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
What you have done is just how I would have approached the construction of such coaches... what was the perceived problem?
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
Graham,
The problem was how to get a thin side to take the shape properly and how/whether it could self support over the tumblehome. The first test piece shows that with laminating it'll sort itself out over the upper body (so that's SheetZAP), but that it doesn't adequately support itself over the tumblehome. The later test piece shows that scarfing in a section of 0.020" for the tumblehome works effectively.
It's also confirmed a way to use the same construction of Jenkinson box along the Maunsell R4 coaches with their stepped-in sections. This latter point was relatively minor as Jenkinson shows the theory of how to do it in his book. It has allowed me to confirm the material thicknesses and dimensions to get it to work for these particular vehicles though.
Steph
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
Further progress has been made...
I've actually used the Nondescript as proof of concept (the reasons will become clear later in this posting). So here's the Thanet sides set up to show what I've done. Using SheetZap seems to work well to laminate the upper sides, but it's slippery stuff and takes a couple of minutes to cure. Useful in many cases, but won't help us keep the laminations in alignment. I started by drilling the inner lamination over the doors (where the vents will cover any scars). 1mm plastic rod will be used to align. And for reference the large panel sander I made for rubbing down the burrs and cutting ridges on the inner side is also shown:
And here you can see the drill holes:
The outer sides are then lined up drilled, and have pegs of 1mm rod stuck in with thick superglue:
And then trimmed off to leave a small nub for registration. It will allow the side to sit flat on glass:
Once assembled, the glazing rebates become obvious - drop lights still to go in though:
The ribs were then stuck on to the body as per the test section:
Time to fit the side - glue along the top:
I s'pose I should come clean now. The correction to the brake end on this vehicle required a great deal of cutting and shutting to the outer skin. The inner skin was patched so between the two you've got full strength. This shot gives the full story:
However, by the time the ends are trimmed and test fitted, it's starting to look as it should:
From above you can see the body has come up fractionally over-width. The cornice will cover this quite nicely on these two coaches, but I'll have to be a might more carefull with the R4 stock - no cornice:
Oh, and I've decided that I won't be doing an Open Third just yet - it's more likely to be a 6 compartment brake third which I can run with an out-of-the-box Slater's brake composite as a 2-P set.
Steph
I've actually used the Nondescript as proof of concept (the reasons will become clear later in this posting). So here's the Thanet sides set up to show what I've done. Using SheetZap seems to work well to laminate the upper sides, but it's slippery stuff and takes a couple of minutes to cure. Useful in many cases, but won't help us keep the laminations in alignment. I started by drilling the inner lamination over the doors (where the vents will cover any scars). 1mm plastic rod will be used to align. And for reference the large panel sander I made for rubbing down the burrs and cutting ridges on the inner side is also shown:
And here you can see the drill holes:
The outer sides are then lined up drilled, and have pegs of 1mm rod stuck in with thick superglue:
And then trimmed off to leave a small nub for registration. It will allow the side to sit flat on glass:
Once assembled, the glazing rebates become obvious - drop lights still to go in though:
The ribs were then stuck on to the body as per the test section:
Time to fit the side - glue along the top:
I s'pose I should come clean now. The correction to the brake end on this vehicle required a great deal of cutting and shutting to the outer skin. The inner skin was patched so between the two you've got full strength. This shot gives the full story:
However, by the time the ends are trimmed and test fitted, it's starting to look as it should:
From above you can see the body has come up fractionally over-width. The cornice will cover this quite nicely on these two coaches, but I'll have to be a might more carefull with the R4 stock - no cornice:
Oh, and I've decided that I won't be doing an Open Third just yet - it's more likely to be a 6 compartment brake third which I can run with an out-of-the-box Slater's brake composite as a 2-P set.
Steph
lancer1027
Western Thunderer
FANTASTIC work Steph
. You make it look so easy
Rob
. You make it look so easyRob
Steve Cook
Flying Squad
Excellent work Steph Really enjoyed reading through the thread and seeing the coach come together, trouble is you've got to keep it up right through to painting and running now 
Top Job.
Really enjoyed reading through the thread and seeing the coach come together, trouble is you've got to keep it up right through to painting and running now Top Job.
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
Excellent work Steph
Top Job.
Oh crud. That's where the problems usually start. Well, the painting is at least....
Steph
Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
Looking good Steph - my painting is improving
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
I've not had much time to do very much on this over the last couple of weeks. So here's the progress of a couple of dozen snatched half-hour sessions...:
First job was to prepare the cosmetic ends from the Slater's mouldings. That included drilling the holes and mounting the castings for the steps and lamp iron. I've also drilled two larger holes in place for the rams/mountings for a set of modified (i.e. working) Slater's gangways:
You can see in both of these photos I had the misfortune to over-trim the top edge, so it's been carefully reinstated using 0.010" plasticard. On the back there are two ribs to support the gangway area and I've put two shallow slots through the crease so that I can play with the angle at the roof line to get the neatest join:
The ends are then fitted, in this case it again used superglue. I carefully aligned them and then while holding them in place (left hand and table) ran in a few drops of ZAP liquid. Job done. The join round the top of the end filled well too. Next job was the water tank - Slater's part again, carefully canvassed in bog roll, as before:
And then the gutters, roof vents (including mushroom vent over the lavatory) were marked out, fettled and fitted:
Finally the ends have been filled and dressed and the top step fitted. This latter item is a deviation from the Slater's one in order to get it at the right height:
Just the alarm gear 'flags' and lighting connectors to do now. One thing I've not been able to avoid on this model or the Continental which preceeded it is the need for corner fillets to stop the ends warping. They do, of course, have a useful purpose in that they'll be the mounting points for the screws used to hold body and chassis together:
In case you're wondering the lavatory compartment will be mounted on the floor.
Next job will be to make a jig to position the door fittings. That way I can get it uniform on all Maunsell coaches I make - and can move them simply and easily on any Slater's Maunsell carriages I build (they're not moulded in quite the right places in these kits)...
Steph
First job was to prepare the cosmetic ends from the Slater's mouldings. That included drilling the holes and mounting the castings for the steps and lamp iron. I've also drilled two larger holes in place for the rams/mountings for a set of modified (i.e. working) Slater's gangways:
You can see in both of these photos I had the misfortune to over-trim the top edge, so it's been carefully reinstated using 0.010" plasticard. On the back there are two ribs to support the gangway area and I've put two shallow slots through the crease so that I can play with the angle at the roof line to get the neatest join:
The ends are then fitted, in this case it again used superglue. I carefully aligned them and then while holding them in place (left hand and table) ran in a few drops of ZAP liquid. Job done. The join round the top of the end filled well too. Next job was the water tank - Slater's part again, carefully canvassed in bog roll, as before:
And then the gutters, roof vents (including mushroom vent over the lavatory) were marked out, fettled and fitted:
Finally the ends have been filled and dressed and the top step fitted. This latter item is a deviation from the Slater's one in order to get it at the right height:
Just the alarm gear 'flags' and lighting connectors to do now. One thing I've not been able to avoid on this model or the Continental which preceeded it is the need for corner fillets to stop the ends warping. They do, of course, have a useful purpose in that they'll be the mounting points for the screws used to hold body and chassis together:
In case you're wondering the lavatory compartment will be mounted on the floor.
Next job will be to make a jig to position the door fittings. That way I can get it uniform on all Maunsell coaches I make - and can move them simply and easily on any Slater's Maunsell carriages I build (they're not moulded in quite the right places in these kits)...
Steph
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
Please explain which part is warping.... why do you think that the part(s) are moving?
regards, Graham