Casting Process Advice

7mmMick

Western Thunderer
I have started this thread at the request of Ian to discuss the casting process and his advice to a novice where this is concerned, namely me :thumbs:

Out of interest Ian here is the prototype I referred earlier, a project I intended to start a year or so ago but for one reason or another am only just getting round to image.jpg

An NER Y Class pacific tank, in my time period around 1950, an LNER A7,

ATB Mick
 

7mmMick

Western Thunderer
Hi Adrian,

In addition to this loco another one is planned, which is fitted with a different boiler. Drawing wise I've seen the GA already so know where that is. I'm hoping to find some other detailed drawings, a pipe and rod drawing and hopefully some drawings with regards the different boilers ?
I think the following would need casting,

1) chimney (two types)
2) smoke box door (two types)
3) dome
4) slide bar/cross head ( including centre cylinder )
5) centre valve gear
6) back head and some fittings
7) axle box springs

From what I can see some boiler fittings, lamp irons, tank fillers, smoke box blower valve, safety valves and whistle are all available from LG and are common to other types. The castings in hoping to produce will be useful for other prototypes so I could keep some for stock?

ATB Mick
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Mick,

I am not sure that I understand the area for which you need advice. Are you asking about companies to supply materials for moulds / castings? companies to provide casting services? what to cast in brass and what to cast in whitemetal? what parts are suitable for castings as against metal forming? All are interesting questions in the context of providing parts for scratchbuilds.

regards, Graham
 

7mmMick

Western Thunderer
Hi Graham,

Probably all of the above really, I posed a question to Ian@StEnochs on JB's workbench hence this thread. In addition to your thoughts the things that sprung to mind were the production of masters and how robust they have to be to stand up to the casting process? Should a high melting point solder be used etc.... As for white metal or lost wax brass my preference is the later but are there cost implications ?

ATB Mick
 

Ian@StEnochs

Western Thunderer
Hi Mick,

As I said on another thread I use both white metal and lost wax castings to speed up the modelling process. You may know that my modelling 'Plan' is to build one of each major loco class that the G&SWR had. Now the Sou'west is not well supported by the trade, which is a bonus in that my models are a bit different from the usual suspects, but a disadvantage in that everything has to be scratchbuilt. Using castings can save an awful lot of time in repetetive work but there has to be an initial investment in the patterns and in cash. However the production of your own 'bits' can be very rewarding. It is not rocket science and anyone with a little scratchbuilding skill and a dose of determination can produce useful castings.

I made patterns for bits of the 4-6-0 and the Dunalistair in my 'hello' thread. I will take some photos of these later today and post more with explanation this evening.

Ian.
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
As for white metal or lost wax brass my preference is the later but are there cost implications ?
I suspect that brass castings are more expensive given the higher temperatures of the molten liquid... I shall be pleased to hear from those with more experience.

Why is brass your preference?

Experience with Finney, Ragstone and MMP kits suggests to me that care in choosing the most appropriate material for the intended shape is important... and that the shape of the proposed part is just as important. To date I have found no concerns with any of the whitemetal castings from MMP... there are no brass castings in the MMP kits for BG / Class 08 / Dogfish. Ragstone castings have been superb for detail irrespective of material - there have been problems with the brass axlebox spring / spring hanger brackets for the A4 tender with the hanger rod breaking off just under the spring - this is probably a case where the spring and hanger bracket ought to have been separate castings and the spring rod made from wire. A similar situation had occurred with one of the axlebox spring castings from a Finney A4. As to finesse of detail, a decent whitemetal casting can hold its own with brass... possibly due to the physical characteristics of molten whitemetal.

The best castings that I have seen in the past couple of years have been the whitemetal parts for a JLTRT Class 50... in this case I suspect that we purchased a kit which had castings from a first use mould / pattern. Sharp and clean, nice to see and use.
 

Railwaymaniac

Western Thunderer
Is there not another alternative here? - What about resin castings?

You always have to have a master to make the mould, that's the same in all cases. But resin casting is room temperature and you can make the master an exact 1:1 scale because there's little or no shrinkage involved.
The mould can be made from plasticine, fenced in with Lego bricks - real kitchen table stuff.
And 'yes' - it's real penny-number quantities, but we're not talking about production quantity things anyway.

Looking down the list of items in post #3, it seems that most of them are 'non-wear' items and would be suitable for resin casting, although I suspect that things like the slidebar/crosshead and the central valve gear would be better in something more durable.

Just my £0.02 worth ...

Ian
 

7mmMick

Western Thunderer
Ian,

That's great thank you, looking forward to your post,

Graham,

My preference for brass really is as in my experience in generally a crisper casting, although this is probably down to the workmanship and not material ? And there's no need to swap and change between low melt and higher temperature solder, although again this is no major issue. The valve gear will have to be brass as I once owned an Oakville WD with a white metal version, totally useless :)) other than those minor issues I have no problem with white metal and may go that way as well, I wonder if there is a cost implication in casting some in brass and other in WM ?

Ian (Railwaymaniac),

Again I have no real issue with resin but would probably not use it as I much prefer solder construction throughout and am not a fan of gluing to brass. Although I see the obvious cost benefits,

Cheers Mick
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
My preference for brass really is as in my experience in generally a crisper casting...
Try to get a look at the castings in a MMP kit... bootiful stuff in our Dogfish and BG kits. On the other hand, look at the brass castings in some of the Scorpio kits - look like the prototype, just not clean and finished nicely.
 

richard carr

Western Thunderer
Brass and white metal both have their advantages for certain items. Where there is no stress or strain onthe part then I generally prefer white metal, its much easier to clean up, brake blocks in brass are a pain, especially when you need to file them down a fair bit on the back to get clearances. The same goes for chimneys and domes, its much easier to get a good fit when they are in whitemetal, than when they are brass and the finish can be just as good, as Graham says look at those from MMP and I would add DJH. I think you will find whitemetal is much cheaper than brass too.

But for delicate detail castings, brass (or nickel silver) is the answer and where the part is under stress, brass is much stronger.

I'm very keen to hear what Ian has to say.

Richard
 
S

SteveO

Guest
White metal or pewter is several times cheaper than lost-wax brass castings due to the cost of the raw material, but mainly due to the process of casting. Soft metals can be cast at home quite easily, but I doubt your house insurance would cover the furnace required for brass casting - the cost of this furnace is much higher than a vulcaniser and spin caster too.

Whatever the method you choose, the pattern master quality is absolutely paramount to getting a good reproduction. It's not true that hard metals are higher quality than soft metals by default.

I'm going to be designing the pattern masters for my 04 kits soon but I can show you a quick example of how I'm going to make them if you like?
 

Ian@StEnochs

Western Thunderer
Hi All,

Its been a really fine almost summer day here so I have not been in the workshop. I however did manage to look out some of the masters I made for my 4-6-0,in particular the slide bars, crosshead and connecting rods. The effort of having castings made is only justifiable in my mind if one is going to need a number of identical parts. If I was only building one model then the time to make the masters, the waiting time for the castings to come back plus the expense would not be justified. However if the parts have wider use, or a lot are needed on the model then a casting may be a worthwhile investment. The outside connecting rods on the Manson 4-6-0 are a case in point. I wanted to build more than one engine and the time saved by getting the motion parts cast was fully justified.
View attachment 36048
Here is a quick snap of them on the beastie. These are cast in nickel silver by the lost wax process. The masters are brass. See this picture which shows the masters, an un-fettled set of castings and the slidebars assembled.
Slidebars.jpg
When making the master you have to remember that for the metal casting to be made a wax copy has to be made first. This wax is made in a rubber or silicone mould from your original. Some casters still use a vulcanised rubber mould for the waxes. If this is the case your masters will need to be soldered together with at least 188 solder. I still use tin/lead and have had no problems with it. If your caster uses an RTV, room temperature vulcanising, rubber or silicone mould you can get away with a lower melting point solder. You may also be able to use plasticard masters but check with your caster first before spending time on the patterns! The finished waxes are then dipped in a ceramic slurry which hardens and when heated the wax burns out leaving a cavity into which the molten metal is poured.

The original must allow for the shrinkage which happens both in the wax moulding and in the metal casting. The allowance is 2-3% For small parts you can ignore the shrinkage but for these rods which are 79 mm long I made the master 81 mm long.

Another consideration is in how the part will be moulded in wax. In all probability the wax will show a part line where the two parts of the mould join. You have to design into the pattern where this line will appear. On the components shown above the part lines are along the edges. I leave a little extra allowance to let me file off the part lines and end up at the correct shape. It is important to tell the caster which way you want the part to be moulded. I always give the caster a sketch of each part showing how I want it placed in the mould. Also beware that the waxes can be distorted when they are removed from the mould. If this is not spotted before being invested then the final casting will also be distorted. Not a big problem on a connecting rod with a slight bend but I have seen the valve spindle guides from a kit where the spindle needed to be bent in an arc to fit!

Also to be designed in is where the metal feeds into the mould. The feed has to be big enough to let the metal flow quickly into the cavity and support any vulnerable part of your pattern. The Slidebars above are extended and joined by a spreader which keeps them parallel and straight. I have spent too long with commercial castings for working valve gear trying to straighten them out to be useable.

Where two parts are to fit together and slide, crosshead and slidebars, you must allow a little extra fitting metal. On the Crosshead I made the slides very slightly wider than required. The slidebars were made to fit. I then soldered 5 thou shims to the inside faces of the bars which meant the crosshead would no longer go in but let me file the castings back to give a nice easy running movement.

The hole for the piston rod in the stuffing box I left at full size. My caster knew about it and made sure that the wax also had a hole. The final castings just need the hole cleared by running a drill through and then easing with a taper reamer just to get a nice running fit on the piston rod.

On this prototype I managed to get away with only making one set of motion as top and bottom slide bars are the same. The crosshead is handed but by not putting the bolts in it I was able to fit the appropriate ones and drill out the upper oiling access hole. The big end on the connecting rod was made with the cotter and oil box on both top and bottom. The redundant parts were easily removed to hand the items.

This has been a wee bit rambling but I hope that this helps Mick. That Y class tank you showed us looks an interesting beastie.

Ian
 

7mmMick

Western Thunderer
Ramble any time for me Ian :thumbs: there's a good few of my questions answered thankyou and I shall refer to this thread in the future I know. I know very little about the G&SWR but your models are inspirational to say the least :thumbs:

Others have illuded to it but do you have a particular preference for material used to cast with and have you found it cost effective to say just ask your caster to use brass rather than both white metal and brass, as it seems the process for each is very different? I only ask as brass will do all but white metal will not.

Also is it better to make the cross head and slide bar assembler not handed ? Surely you will still be casting the same amount, I assume the making of the different master mould is where the additional cost comes in but is this a cost worth paying to save time adding the details to and making the parts for the both sides?

How many castings will a mould take before becoming worn out?

Finally could you recommend a caster please? I only ask as it seems really important to consult them from the beginning so as not to waste a lot of effort ?

The Y class is a real favourite of mine Ian, I do like the early NER big tanks. Any layout in the East Riding would be lost without a couple of these brutes. There weren't many built and at one time or another the whole class worked in Hull, mainly on coal traffic and working Chalk from Hessle Quarry to the cement works. I'm looking forward to getting the drawings and getting on with it and as you say above they do share parts with other types so I'm hoping the initial work on masters will be worth it.

ATB Mick
 

Scale7JB

Western Thunderer
After a day of NCT classes I haven't got the brain power to fully read all the above at the moment, but something I'll definitely come back to..

Just one thing I would like to say though regarding the quality of castings in kits.. Take a look at Ken De Groome's castings on the Met BoBo.. One word, stunning! And he does them all himself with a centrifuge mould..

JB.
 
S

SteveO

Guest
I was lured to the pub earlier but I'll show a very simple method of making a certain type of pattern master tomorrow - when slightly more sober...
 

Ian@StEnochs

Western Thunderer
Mick,

I like lots of different prototypes, quite keen on some of the NER locos I have the wheels for a Tennant salted away for the future. However my principal interest is as a result of reading David Smith's 'Tales of the G&SWR' when I was a very young spotter. I also like tank engines but that was one area where the G&SWR lets me down as it had so few tanks on its books! I don't particularly like the Whitelegg Baltic tank which is probably what most enthusiasts know of the Sou' West!

As to different types of casting, each has its place. I utilise a lot of whitemetal bits which I cast at home because it is very convenient, quick and relatively inexpensive. If there is any interest I can explain later. However there are some bits which wm is not suitable for and only a fabricated metal or lost wax casting will do. The motion I described is a good example. I chose nickel silver because it looks like oiled steel, especially if given a bit of chemical blacking and weathering. Brass is slightly cheaper and essential for the polished bits, the lubricators on the cylinder ends are cast brass as are the brake hangers and shoes.

Why did I only make one set of patterns instead of handing them? Well the slidebars are symetrical so no need, The crosshead only differs in that there are 3 bolts along the bottom edge and two plus an oil hole on the top. By having the holes for the bolts cast in it is a simple job to drill out the central oil hole larger and pop scale hardware bolts into the other holes. Also I only needed 8 of each so it would have taken about twice as long to make the patterns. There is also the question of cost. I would have had to pay for two sets of moulds instead of just one.

It is difficult to predict just how many castings one can get from a mould, I have had a run of 48 springs from a rubber mould but something with undercuts or deep holes tend to damage the mould when taking the waxes out. The thin bit of rubber/silicone in the hole is very fragile and can break off easily. You can reduce the risk by only partially drilling the holes in the patterns but you then need to drill out your castings, swings and roundabouts.

I should also have mentioned the problems of shrinkage in castings. This happens when there are thick and thin sections in a pattern, The thin bits solidify quickly but the thicker sections keep their heat longer and solidify slowly. Because there is no liquid metal available to be drawn in the thick bit shrinks in on itself. If possible thick bits should have substantial sprues feeding directly into them to give a reservoir of metal to be drawn in.

There are a number of casters around, some advertise in the model press and there are others on the web. If you can find one near where you live it makes life easier as you can visit and show them exactly what you want. I have had good results from Iain Young at Sanspareil, Merrells Castings in Birmingham are good too. I had the coupling rods done by JLTRT in Irvine. Costs vary depending on the complexity, the number, the price of brass and other market forces.

Hope this helps, now I am going back to the workshop for an hour or so before lunch.

Ian.
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
I utilise a lot of whitemetal bits which I cast at home because it is very convenient, quick and relatively inexpensive. If there is any interest I can explain later.

Ian,

I would welcome some more information on your home casting with white metal. I've got a lot of small bits to source - like axleboxes, springs, etc., which would suit white metal, and some hints on how to achieve success would be helpful.

Jim.
 
Top