1/32 Dark Side, Big Scale

[mickoo]

Mick, I realised that the forum doesn't have a 1:29 tag, and this doesn't bother me. Just wanted folks to know that these are not Gauge 1 models in terms of scale, just in terms of track gauge - indeed, the manufacturer refers to them as "G scale" (which I always took to be LGB, i.e. 1:22.5 or so).

G scale, wow don't they just cram so many scales within that heading!. G I think just stands for garden and is any scale that one might use in the garden. LGB kind of throw a spanner in the works, some stock is 1:29 and some is 1:22.5, the latter to represent narrow gauge 1m track stock I believe. I think Piko also do 1:22.5 but rather than narrow gauge prototype use standard gauge models on 45mm track, aka V160 and Taurus, now those do look odd on the far too narrow track. Even within Gauge 1 theres a scale difference, a growing band of purists going for 1:32, everyone else (mostly live steamers) going for 1:30.5 or 10mm to the foot I believe, though I think Aster is 1:32?. If you consider the majority of Gauge 1 users are 1:30.5 then the US 1:29 isn't that far out , a mere 5% LOL.

Some US companies do scale at 1:32 but they seem to be fighting the mainstream 1:29 brigade and three rail seems to have a very big hold in the US, understandable if your running garden set ups as it simplifies wiring at points etc. In the UK battery power seems to have a strong following.
In Europe Marklin have a nice large range of 1:32 stock with a very nice price tag too , though I did miss a bargin Br103 at Warley the other year, at a show special price of £1000 I thought it steep until I got home and researched the true price!, the following year they had a bargin V200 in cream/blue at £800, it'll be interesting to see what they have this year .

The bogies on the Aristocraft SD45 and Class 66 seem to be very wide, I'm going to go today and measure up a 1:1 GBRf 66 bogie width and see how it compares with the model, there is plenty of space in there to add the extra width to 1:29 scale track. Both companies use a lot of lateral play to allow the bogies to negotiate very sharp Xmas tree curves, so I suspect some of this space between wheel and side frame is for that as well as the underscale gauge. I'm hopefully going to reduce a lot of that side play, I don't require 3-4'r curves so should be able to take a lot of that side play out, then fit better scaled wheels and then work out where I'm at with the side frames....all dependant on what scale I ultimately choose.

The other option is to just say what the hey and make it 'fun' rather than get hell bent on scales and exactness, leaving that to projects that I do have some control over . I find getting really 'anorak' in things kind of takes some of the fun factor away .

Addendum, just measured the 66 bogie, for those interested its 92" over the frame, this is approximate as the frame has a fair few lumps and bumps cast in but this is the minimum/datum width, frame thickness is 12" minimum/datum and clearance between wheel and frame is a miniscule 1.5".
The 66 bogie is a spin off from the HTC-R I believe so suspect that these measurments are very close to the Flexicoil and HTC bogies from EMD. Interestingly the wheels are 6" thick, I always thought wheels were 5.5" thick?. There are also two types of wheel, a thick rim and....wait for it...a thin rim, I have as yet to determine why there are two types of wheel and the reason for their fitment at what appears random fashion through out the class (read, I've not yet done a spreadsheet to detail which locos are fitted with which wheel, a project for the weekend I feel). No one here on the terminals or the drivers I know and speak too have any idea either about the two types of wheel.

This evening I'll compare the field measurments with the Aristocraft class 66 bogie.

Kindest

 

[ceejaydee]

I agree Mick; the actual definition of G scale is a bit of a minefield and seems to encompass a number of different scales running on a common track gauge.
You are correct that Piko have generally gone for standard gauge prototypes but the actual scale used seems to vary somewhere between 1:24 to 1:27 but the overall size is compatible with the LGB 'outline' and simply state 'G' on the boxes.
Same for US 1:29 scale where despite being based on standard gauge prototypes, the overall size of the locos and stock match the traditional LGB 'outline' or should I say loading gauge?
There are one or two true 1:32 items in the Piko US range which are former MDC mouldings from what I understand - some boxcars, the small bogie hoppers and I think the bogie baggage car is also 1:32.
LGB are well known for using a 'rubber ruler' to distort dimensions on many of their models to ensure compatibility within the range and so you will find standard gauge, metre gauge and even 750mm gauge prototypes running on the common 45mm track gauge.

 

[Simon Dunkley]

Even within Gauge 1 theres a scale difference, a growing band of purists going for 1:32, everyone else (mostly live steamers) going for 1:30.5 or 10mm to the foot I believe, though I think Aster is 1:32?. If you consider the majority of Gauge 1 users are 1:30.5 then the US 1:29 isn't that far out , a mere 5% LOL.

The majority of Gauge 1 users world-wide use 1:32. Early Aster productions could be a bit variable at times, but are 1:32 nowadays, apart from the 15mm scale stuff for 3' narrow gauge, and the occasional LGB scale steamer - to me, that is "G" scale, but there you go.

There is also USA Trains producing in 1:29. If I had the money, this would be a problem as they have an Alco S4 and an EMD GP 38-2 in their range, to name but two favourites...

 

[mickoo]

The majority of Gauge 1 users world-wide use 1:32. Early Aster productions could be a bit variable at times, but are 1:32 nowadays, apart from the 15mm scale stuff for 3' narrow gauge, and the occasional LGB scale steamer - to me, that is "G" scale, but there you go.

There is also USA Trains producing in 1:29. If I had the money, this would be a problem as they have an Alco S4 and an EMD GP 38-2 in their range, to name but two favourites...

Simon, Now you see I always thought G1 were 10mm to the foot brigade, certainly the live steam guy I worked with and a lot of his club are 10mm scale, Barrat engineering seem to enhance this view http://www.barrettengineering.co.uk/gauge1.html
Temille is also all 10mm to the foot which I presume is 1:30.5 scale?, as do Mercian Models who stock predominately 10mm but offer a 1:32 range as well. I do concur that 1:32 is becomng the more popular scale. I concur that this only seems to be an issue in the UK, everyone else opting for 1:32, except of course the aforementioned Americans with their 1:29 . Where it all gets confusing is GIMRA, they advocate, if I read this correctly, 1:32 track, yet both the 'Dee' and the 'Project' are 10mm to the foot . However, I am happy to be educated if I've misunderstood it all .

The USAT GP38-2 is rather nice, I know as I've just got one LOL, but it has issues with the wheels and bogie side frames, like your goodself I'd have prefered 1:32 scale but realized that unless I scratch build virtually the whole model then 1:29 is the only practicable way to go, especially if you want something running before you pass on to the other side.

An Alco S4 went quite cheap the other day on Ebay, at least I think it was an S4 and I only paid £150+£9.99 P&P for the GP38-2. I think at the end of the day people have to decide what they are prepared to accept or how to deal with their inner demons...to scale or not to scale!.
You only have three effective choices. One, 1:29 trains on 1:32 track and squint. Two, 1:29 trains on scratch built 1:29 track (probably the easiest option to get correct scales all round) and be locked to your own layout or like minded layouts/clubs. Three, scratch build 1:32 stock and locos on 1:32 track.

Personaly I'm edging toward the first option with a healthy does of fun sprinkled on top, if it were museum or ultra detail then 1:32 would be my option, granted this will probably place them into the 'toy' bracket by many, but hey ho , I suspect a few here covet the 'toy' option on far more occasion that they wish to admit LOL, if I've read previous postings here and there correctly .

G scale, yup, with you there, anything thats not 1:32 or 1:30.5 seems to get lumped into G scale, LGB is definately in the G scale bracket .

Chris D has a point about LGB, their stock that's nearer the 1:29 end of the spectrum has its issues, they have a very nice F Unit, but compared to other 1:29 it's over size, as are their US coaches etc, I did read somewhere what scale that ended up at, will have a poke about and see if I can find that, probably another mish mash scale you can throw into the G scale bracket.

Interesting dialogue by all.

Kindest

 

[JimG]

Simon, Now you see I always thought G1 were 10mm to the foot brigade, certainly the live steam guy I worked with and a lot of his club are 10mm scale, Barrat engineering seem to enhance this view http://www.barrettengineering.co.uk/gauge1.html
Temille is also all 10mm to the foot which I presume is 1:30.5 scale?, as do Mercian Models who stock predominately 10mm but offer a 1:32 range as well. I do concur that 1:32 is becomng the more popular scale. I concur that this only seems to be an issue in the UK, everyone else opting for 1:32, except of course the aforementioned Americans with their 1:29 . Where it all gets confusing is GIMRA, they advocate, if I read this correctly, 1:32 track, yet both the 'Dee' and the 'Project' are 10mm to the foot . However, I am happy to be educated if I've misunderstood it all .

When I was in the G1MRA in the 1970s/80s the mention of 3/8" scale had to be done quite carefully. I remember Ella Roberts - the editor of the Newsletter at the time - having to moderate the letters in the Newsletter on the occasions that 3/8" scale cropped up in discussions. I chose to model in 3/8" scale but kept quiet. I think I remember that the support for 10mm scale was to maintain compatibility with the proprietary (collectors') 10mm scale models which were owned by a lot of the membership. I don't know if things have changed in the last thirty years.

Jim.

 

[ceejaydee]

.......the mention of 3/8" scale had to be done quite carefully.......I don't know if things have changed in the last thirty years.

I think that Mr. Castens would possibly be the best to answer the way that the G1MRA view on 1/32 scale is gradually being dragged into the 21st Century as he has done and is doing some sterling work on that front.

My personal experience is that there is still a strong element that really don't like 1/32 or in fact anything that isn't live steam running at a million mph spewing steam, hot water and oily residue everywhere - so maybe things haven't changed much since your days of membership Jim but I think evolution will take place.

 

[Simon Dunkley]

I think that Mr. Castens would possibly be the best to answer the way that the G1MRA view on 1/32 scale is gradually being dragged into the 21st Century as he has done and is doing some sterling work on that front.

Aye: I got fed up with them and left!

My personal experience is that there is still a strong element that really don't like 1/32 or in fact anything that isn't live steam running at a million mph spewing steam, hot water and oily residue everywhere - so maybe things haven't changed much since your days of membership Jim but I think evolution will take place.

Plus several million on that.
It is a sad reflection of things that 10mm modelling will simply die out over time...

Were I modelling US outline on G1 track, I would probably go for the 1:29 on 45mm track option, which is counter to my usual practice, but nevertheless, life is too short...

 

[mickoo]

Aye: I got fed up with them and left!

Plus several million on that.
It is a sad reflection of things that 10mm modelling will simply die out over time...

Were I modelling US outline on G1 track, I would probably go for the 1:29 on 45mm track option, which is counter to my usual practice, but nevertheless, life is too short...

If you do, your welcome to borrow my spectacles, everything looks fine to me through them, well, it looks much better with out them, truth be told LOL.

Kindest

 

[mickoo]

Right, onward, the spare SD45 bogies turned up today, hmmm, me suspects a little stretching of the truth in the Ebay description which said lightly used. The tyres are filthy, actually the whole pair of bogies are filthy, so a nice big wash of all the plastic components should ride them of most of the eight legged friends and there residue from them, no mention either of the significant water damage to the little circuit card on top of one of the bogies, good job it is not required.

A quick measure with the Class 66 figures this morning shows it to scale exactly the right width in 1:29 scale, and a slightly thin frame thickness by 1mm, of course that could also mean its the wrong size and the HTC is not 92" wide like the HTC-RE....just noted its an E variant (Euro?) of the HTC-R.

Will post some detailed photos once its all clean, I think the best option is to go for the scale wheels on 45mm track and pull the side frames in a little to compensate, also reduce the 3mm side play on each axle.

Kindest

 

[mickoo]

Wheels, ok more on wheels, seems NWSL do not stock there fine scale 170 wheels any more and only limited stocks of 236 for the GP38 and only course 270 for the SD45 (Aristo tapered shaft).

So, further out of the box thinking, is it possible to use 10mm (1:30.5 scale) wheels instead.

Currently only looking at the SD45 so I need 40" wheels, in old money 3'.4" .

The current SD45 measurments are
Dia 35mm (scale 39.9")
Width (W) 8mm
Flange Depth (FD) 2.5mm as far as I can ascertain
Flange Width (FW) 2.0mm

Correct 1:29 (and anyone please jump in if I'm wrong) scale is
W 4.96mm lets say 5mm
FD 0.99mm lets say 1mm
FW 0.99mm lets say 1mm

Now, a standard 10mm wheel is
W 6mm
FD 2mm
FW 1.5mm

And 10mm fine is
W 5.0mm
FD 1.5mm
FW 1.0mm

A quick look at Slaters reveals diesel 3',7" (43") and 3',9" (45") in G1 standard, a quick conversion of the dia to 1:29 scale produces 40.8" and 42.8" wheels in 1:1 scale.

Now I can settle for the slight diameter difference but you would have to skim the width and flange a little, or you could leave them as they are, compared to what's already in the SD45 there a huge improvement. Ideally you'd need to source G1 fine to be more accurate.

The only fly in the ointment is the shaft dia, I require 5.9mm, Slaters is 3/16" (4.76mm) so some sort of sleeving will be required to fit into the existing gearboxes, or new shafts turned but then there is the issue of the square key on the end....currently beyond my skill set.

Unfortunately Slaters are a little 'lite' on information about their wheels, are they steel through out, NS, NS rims on plastic hubs?.

Anyway, back to the toothbrush and stiff detergent .

Kindest

 

[Simon Dunkley]

If you do, your welcome to borrow my spectacles, everything looks fine to me through them, well, it looks much better with out them, truth be told LOL.

Well, I have just taken mine off, and now I can't see to find them again!

Slater's wheels have plastic centres and steel tyres: the 10mm scale wheels have quite a bit of meat in the tyres, and can easily be turned down. Their 1:32 wagon wheels have had more taken out of them, and reducing the width is a fraught operation.
Don't ask me how I know this!

 

[mickoo]

Well, I have just taken mine off, and now I can't see to find them again!

Slater's wheels have plastic centres and steel tyres: the 10mm scale wheels have quite a bit of meat in the tyres, and can easily be turned down. Their 1:32 wagon wheels have had more taken out of them, and reducing the width is a fraught operation.
Don't ask me how I know this!

Simon, thanks, if Slaters wheels are 10mm as they proclaim then there only 1mm too thick for 1:29, I could probably live with that and only have to trim 0.5-1mm off the flange, they would not be exact 1:29 scale but more like 1:29 fine scale, if that actually exists. At a push I could skim 0.5 off the back face, might make a mess of B2B but might make it better? and 0.5mm off the flange depth, that I think would appease my inner demons and is a workable solution.

The final issue is the shaft, 3/16" needs to be increased to 6mm, so far Eileen's do not have a tube wall thick enough to do it in one hit, so will probably end up sweating two tubes together and boring out the 0.25mm I need to make it up to 3/16". The Aristocraft gearboxes are quite clever and already have roller bearings for the axles and even for the worm, photos tomorrow when the sun comes out...if it comes out!.

All this of course is irrelevant for a dummy bogie where new 3/16" roller bearings can be used and the motors and gear boxes used elsewhere.

Right time to go and research lathes and perhaps replicate your woes!. Getting rather expensive this lark!.

Kindest

 

[ceejaydee]

.......Right time to go and research lathes and perhaps replicate your woes!. Getting rather expensive this lark....

Lathe research - this is getting serious now

 

[mickoo]

Milling machine too , then I'll have everything I think I could possibly need for the near future, but there's always room for more tools .

Kindest

 

[mickoo]

Ok, the SD45 bogie stripped down.



On the left is the pivot housing, this huge block sits on top of the bogie and traps the circuit board onto the NS current collection strips, it also prevent a decent under frame and sill beam to be modelled, so its going in the bin.

Two motors, two side frames and two gearboxes complete are self explanatory, above them is a gearbox and wheel set stripped down, the gear wheel is nylon and the two half axles fit into this and are secured with three small screws though the axle flange, not the best arrangement, but maybe it is?, nobody has ever complained of stripped gears or broken axles on the Aristo models. The Nylon gear has a 6mm hole through the middle so the axles can be replaced with a solid shaft, however alternative arrangements will have to be made for current collection.

To the right are the two halves of the motor 'brick' assembly, it is quite a clever design, each motor has a hex section added to the shaft at each end, these feed into the gearboxes and when assembled form one long GB-Motor-GB-Motor-GB arrangement, at the input shaft to the gearbox can be seen a round boss, this fits into a corresponding round slot in the brick, this allows the gearbox and axle to rotate around the drive shaft a small amount ie longitudinal roll, not all gearboxes rotate, one at one end it rigid and thus stops the body from tilting over.

Fairly obvious in the shot are the biscuit tin wheels, these have to go!, NWSL only stock 270 which is marginally better than supplied, only marginally because they are solid NS and not NP plated like the originals, turning down the originals is not and option as they are brass with NP, for gently run bogies, there's an awful lot of brass showing on the treads!. Which leads us back full circle to Slaters, two choices, use Slaters axles and increase dia with tubing to 6mm, keep Aristo axles and turn Slaters hub from square section to tapered to fit the Aristo axle, all in all a lot of head banging and swearing on the horizon . I did hear somewhere of a UK guy who'd turn up class 66 wheels, not sure how that would work with a brass core, unless they were all new steel ones?, pointless dialogue anyway as I cannot for the life of me remember who it was.

On the plus side, reducing the frame width to bring the moulded brakes into line with the wheels is easily achieved, so I'll end up with 1:32 wheels, 1:30.5 wide bogies and 1:29 body, hopefully the stepped transition between parts will not throw off the looks too much?.

Kindest

 

[Simon]

When I was in the G1MRA in the 1970s/80s the mention of 3/8" scale had to be done quite carefully. I remember Ella Roberts - the editor of the Newsletter at the time - having to moderate the letters in the Newsletter on the occasions that 3/8" scale cropped up in discussions. I chose to model in 3/8" scale but kept quiet. I think I remember that the support for 10mm scale was to maintain compatibility wit h the proprietary (collectors') 10mm scale models which were owned by a lot of the membership. I don't know if things have changed in the last thirty years.

Jim.

I think that things have improved, however the difference in scale and track standards encompassed by the G1MRA "broad church" make it impossible for them to take any lead out of their historical quagmire.

If you are into live steam and aren't too bothered about the modelled side of things then G1MRA is just the job.

The 1/29th thing is just too far out to sit happily alongside 1/32 to my eyes. This is a pity as the Bachmann beastie is really lovely, in a brute modern sort of way.

Simon

 

[mickoo]

Yes, they do not sit well with 1:32 scale, the Class 66 dwarfs the partial Class 40 project I have, but they do sit well with other 1:29 stock, so I'm going to have to go with two themes, 1:29 US and 1:32 Euro, or 1:32 US and scratch build everything and leaves these two as odd balls .

Between this and that I managed a bit more SD45 research, sadly the SP & D&RGW variants looks to be off the cards, it's the bogies you see, they're of the old format used on SD7-SD35 etc, only UP and NW (high nose) used these older bogies, primarily due to them being double shoe braked, almost all subsequent versions were single shoe, UP & NW wanted the extra braking power so opted for the older (and by then non catalogue) C1 truck.

The model ones do need some work to make them (as C1) look better, they could be changed to later types but that adds a lot of extra work with brake rigging and cast frame differences. The only other subsequent double shoe variant is the C2C, again not fitted to SP or D&RGW but that requires cast frame modifications.

Still, onward, knowing the US and the volume of locomotives there's going to be an odd ball somewhere LOL.

Kindest

 

[Steph Dale]

Mick,

Okay, a bit of 'busking' here:

1. Don't try sleeving an axle up (especially not twice) as the result will be not be pretty - you'd need some very high quality/accuracy tube (of any material) to keep the whole lot anywhere near concentric.

2. You don't need to necessarily use a square end in a Slater's wheel - it's there for quartering. In your case, turning the axle end down to 1/8" and drilling/tapping it would achieve the same end and allow a Slater's wheel to be fitted. You might have to think about how you'd 'key' it to the end of the shaft, but that's much less of a concern.

3. You could buy new 3/16" i/d ball races and re-race the gearboxes (What's the o/d of the existing ball races and are they plain or flanged, I'll see if I can find anything suitable). That would leave just the gears to solve. If you mange to determine they're a standard pitch then that's probably solveable by replacement too.

3a. Alternate strategy with the gears is to carefully ream them to take a pair of thin-shell 3/16" bearings - maintaining their accuracy and allowing them to be fitted to a 3/16" axle

4. You could get the existing wheels turned and re-plated. Or maybe just re-tyred?

5. If you're going to be looking at this seriously then pretty much any CNC machining company would be able to produce you new wheels to your own specifications that would fit the existing half axles. This could be surpisingly affordable.

Steph

 

[mickoo]

Steph,

1, Yes, figured that would turn to a world of pain at a fast rate of knots LOL. Alternative is new 6mm axle and turn the ends to accept the Slaters wheels, I have a quartered set of drivers coming and a plain set of coach wheels which I assume are not with sq hole but round, no idea of axle size on those, they are cheaper and could easily be made to fit new 6mm axles with turned down ends.

2, End of Aristo axles are already drilled and tapped so would only need the taper turned parallel to suit the Slaters square bore, could turn slightly larger than the 3/16" square and file a few small lands on there to key them ?, would also solve the B2B issues that arise from Aristos 'generously' machined tapers .

3, Existing ball races are 6mm ID, can find OD easily enough, plain and not flanged, bore in worm gear is also 6mm.

3a, How would you transmit the drive if the worm gear is on ball races on the axle?, I'm guessing by simply pouring in a little of a suitable adhesive to 'lock' them up?, sounds like a sort of machined alternative to sleeving the shaft in option 1?.

4, Had crossed my mind, I have heard of someone who does class 66 wheels (no difference to SD45) but cannot remember where or who, suspect its a local guy from the G1MRA society my friend is a member of, not sure if its flanges only or whole wheel resized. I had thought about just turning them and blackening to remove the brass showing through but although I'm adept at lathes, making 12 the same is probably beyond my patience LOL.

5, Hadn't considered that, but then have to decide on what sort of fixing I need to either current axles or new axles.

Speaking to Paul its clear that tapering the Slaters bore to fit the Aristo axle end is a dead end, there's so much variation in each shaft you effectively have to lap each wheel to each shaft, possible but time consuming. My gut feeling is that drilling the square bore on the drivers to a given size and then turn the end of the Aristo shafts will work better, a drop of red Loctite and the retaining screw should give sufficient strength. The alternative is the coach wheels with their already round bore and trim the Aristo axle to suit, again red Loctite and retaining screw should suffice.

The two wheels I have coming from Slaters are a driver to standard 10mm scale which works out to 1:29 fine or the equivalent, the coach wheels are 10mm fine which work out at 1:29 ultra accurate, or near as can be reasonably practicable from buying off the shelf. The latter are two axles and wheels for £9 or so, the former are £13 for one axle and wheels, the coach wheels offer much better value for money and are more accurate, just the shaft size to worry about, suspect its going to be smaller than 3/16"?.

Thanks for the input, like your trains of thought, its going to take some ingenuity to solve with the minimal amount of fuss and serious engineering .

Kindest

 

[Simon Dunkley]

plain set of coach wheels which I assume are not with sq hole but round, no idea of axle size on those, they are cheaper and could easily be made to fit new 6mm axles with turned down ends.

3/16" axles, with the ends turned down to 1/8".