David Andrews 7mm Stanier 2 6 4 tank.

Discussion in 'Area 51' started by P A D, 9 February 2019.

  1. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Who was that plonker Mick? Oh yeah, it was me.:bowdown: I think I'm catching Dikitrikimickynickyitis!

    Joking aside, many thanks for the kind words. You are right of course in that it matters not what can or can't be seen as long you enjoy doing it. The trouble is, the more detail you put on, the more you realise how much you've left off. I'm putting the top of the frames into the cab and then calling it a day. It would be nice to do more as I enjoy it and with the lift off cab roof it can be easily shown, but I don't really have enough info to do a representation of some of it let alone an accurate one. It's time I got it running.

    It was nice talking to you and the chaps from F7, and I could easily have nattered all afternoon, but you are there to sell kits so best not to take up too much of your time.

  2. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    One of the tank retaining brackets on the boiler came loose again this afternoon, so I took them all off to make a more robust fixing. The original lugs added to the boiler were only about 2mm long, so not enough surface area between the lungs and the bracket etchings. Also the lugs were independently fitted each side into the holes in the boiler, so again not a lot of surface area between the parts for the solder. To improve that I added some rod all the way through soldered each side. As well as that the lungs protrude almost the whole length of the etched brackets, so much more area for the solder in the joint.

    To fit the brackets to the lugs, the boiler was put back into the main body with strips of paper between the lugs and the tank tops to act as a barrier to the solder. The brackets were the placed onto the pins in the tank and against the lugs and held with a screwdriver while soldering. The boiler could then be lifted out and the paper removed.

    Brackets in place after cleaning up.

    And a view from the underside. They are definitely more robust now, as clumsy git that I am, I knocked the boiler over whilst it was stood on end draining after washing. One of the rear ones was knock out of true by 20 degrees or so, but did not break off and was easily straightened with a pair of pliers.

    Inside the cab I've added a representation of the tops of the frames. This is after washing and the excess solder shows up grey so some scraping and glass fibre brush work is required.
    T'other side.

    I'd better stop now as it's starting to look cluttered in there.

  3. Dave Holt

    Dave Holt Active Member

    Based on information in the BR Handbook for Steam Locomotive Enginemen, I would say the red painted "gizmo" in 2500's cab was part of the automatic train control system fitted to locos running on the Tilbury and Southend lines, which differed from the later BR AWS system. Looks like the upper part has its yellow/black flag indicator missing. The handle was used to reset the magneto in the lower chamber if a distant signal is passed at caution to avoid the brakes being automatically applied.
    The other red gubbins, above the reverser, is either the ATC brake valve or the horn valve (part of the same system).
    Pleased to see you managed to overcome the problem with the tank straps and ended up with a better arrangement to boot.
    Last edited: 6 June 2019
  4. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Thanks for the info on the "gizmo". It would not have been on my chosen prototype 42558 so I don't need to worry about it.

    The tank brackets were concerning me as it didn't take much of a knock to unseat them and if that happened during or after painting it would have been very difficult to rectify.

    y6tram likes this.
  5. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    This afternoon I made a start on fitting the motor and pick ups. One point to note though is the close proximity of the return crank at the top of the stoke when the middle axle is at the top of the movement in the bearing slot. I'll file that later to ensure total clearance. 20190606_141124.jpg

    With the motor in place it is necessary to remove the support rod for the brake hangers crossing the frames. I like to leave these in place where possible to add a bit more support to the frames, but in this case it prevents the gearbox fitting with the motor vertical up into the firebox. The mid section was removed with a cutting disc. Also, with the motor vertical the helical gear fouls the rear edge of the ash pan, so needs some sort of stop to prevent this. For some reason ths gearbox has two threaded holes on one edge and one on the other, and into one of these holes I screwed a 10 BA bolt, set to prevent the gearbox sitting too low and the gear contacting the ash pan.

    From this viewpoint it can be seen that access to the rear and middle wheels for the wipers is clear, but the front wheels are obscured by the extensions to the running plate inside the tanks, so these needed removing. Again, a job best done earlier in the build.

    After making a saw cut in the running plate just at the front of the tanks, I then scribed along the inner edge of the tanks with a scrawker, to allow the excess brass to be snapped off. To be able to bend the full length of the excess metal, I used a hand vice clamped in place. In this view I am just about to remove the left hand piece, having already dealt wit the right hand one and in the process knocked off the sand filler cover.

    And after both sides were removed.

    For the pick ups I will use wipers on the tops of the wheels, so suitable mountings were knocked up from brass sheet and soldered in place. In each case a 12BA nut was soldered underneath to except the screw which will hold the copper clad pick up mounting in place. For the rear and middle wheels the pick ups will be mounted individually either side, on mountings soldered to the frames. The front wheel pick ups will be mounted on the same piece of copper clad fixed to a central mounting between the frames. A slot will need to be cut into the bottom of the boiler to to clear this.

    To prevent the gearbox rotating, a simple fixing bracket has been screwed to the central frame spacer and the motor/gearbox fastened to this with PVC tape.

    The copper clad for the front spacer will overhang the frames either side by about 6mm to fix the phosphor bronze wipers to.

    With the overhang on the copper clad, the pick up will pass over the motion bracket just in front where it crosses the frames. Having the boiler detatchable was also useful in allowing a view of the frames and tanks, when considering what the possibilities were. Speaking to Warren Haywood at Doncaster, he mentioned how useful it was for painting, as it is very difficult to spray between the gap in the boiler and the tanks without getting a "shadow".

    PeteB, chrisb, JohnFla and 13 others like this.
  6. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    The position selected for the mountin of the forward pick ups clearly prevents the fitting of the body as it doesn't allow the body to sit down properly on the chassis. To provide clearance a portion of the boiler was cut out with a slitting disc.
    Here the copper clad mounts are screwed to the frames.
    And with the wipers fitted. After painting, I may add a strip of insulating tape to the frames behind the fron wipers as a belt and braces measure. The wheels don't have any side play and pushing the chassis back and forth shows no signs that the wipers move inwards or drop of the flange.
    I like to put copper clad on the sides of the motor to mount the cables from the motor terminals. That way any removal of the pick up cables does not involve removal from the terminals. This meant using tape to anchor the motor was a bit fiddly, so I dispensed with it by soldering the retaining bracket to the top of the gearbox. The other end utilises the spare nut from the kit designed pivot for the centre axle which I replaced with individual springs on each bearing.

    Again, having the boiler removable makes checking the wiper clearance inside the body easier.

    After sorting out one or two areas where shorting was occurring, notably the pony truck on the cylinder drain cock, it is now up and running. The front left brake block was just a tad too close to the wheel and needed a tweek, as was one of the steam sand pipes on the middle wheels. The bogie was sorted by adding some limiting stops to reduce the amount of side play on the curves, which cured the short on the drain pipes. Here's a video showing the "first steaming". It's a bit long but I can't work out how to edit it until my daughter comes home from school.

  7. Dan Randall

    Dan Randall Western Thunderer

    What a great idea - consider it well and truly nicked! :thumbs:


    P A D likes this.
  8. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Steal away Dan.

    I suppose a better option would be to fit a small connector so that the pick ups could be unplugged for removal without the need to unsolder.

    mickoo, Len Cattley and Dan Randall like this.
  9. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Just about to add picks ups to the PC (awful lot less space) so your notes are timely, what wire do you use for the wipers, I used Spring wire on the County, it was okay but a chore to solder and form, I also found that by bending the bit that rubs on the rim into an inverted U it minimised the risk of it wanting to slide left or right off the rim.
    Len Cattley and Dog Star like this.
  10. Dikitriki

    Dikitriki Flying Squad

    Hi Peter,

    This is a fabulous build, and I am really enjoying it.

    If I may say something in the spirit of making a fantastic model even better. My eye is drawn every time to the cab handwheels. They are not right, being far too flat, and detract from the appearance of the backhead - see your photo in post #159. Can I suggest you source some alternative ones, perhaps like the ones Nick Dunhill uses?

  11. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    This afternoon I gave it a buzz on the rollers, an hour of so each way and it showed no sign of the pick ups moving left or right. I did try a mors more complex bend to avoid them slipping off but couldn't get the bend right. I may revisit them though, as I'm thinking a slightly simpler inverted V would add some braces to the belt. I'm using 0.5mm phosphor bronze rod from Eileen's.

    This is how I did if on my Gladiator Duchess. I'm assuming similarly clearances on the F7 version. For safety, I added a strip of insulating tape to the underside of the boiler for the middle pick ups, as they were very close.


    Thanks Richard, glad you've enjoyed the build.

    Good point on the handwheels which are what came with the kit. Now that you've pointed them out, I'll change them for MOK ones, as I have some spares. I used them for the detail at the cab rear and fireman's side but it never occurred to me to use them on the backhead. Duuurgh! Hope I've got 4.

    A little bit of back tracking before it went on the rollers. The bracket I soldered onto the milled gearbox came adrift. Couldn't get enough heat into the joint with the iron to overcome the thick milled brass sucking heat away and I dared not use the mini gas burner so close to the motor. The simple solution was to make a straight bracket and utilise the top gearbox mounting screw to locate it. The srew in the edge of the gearbox to stop the helical gear catching the ash pan, was no longer needed so I took it off.

    This is the simple restrictor added the frames to limit the sideplay of the pony truck. On the rails its virtually invisible. 20190611_190735.jpg

    The bogie and pony truck were looking quite grubby, so while the wheels were spinning on the rollers, I gave them both a good clean up. Before putting the wheels back on I chemically blackened them along with the axles and nuts. I've still to put a couple of chunks of lead sheet under the top cross member on the truck, that although not having shown any sign of jumping the rails on points, can only help.

    Some gratuitous shots to end. Thought I'd finished with the detail work, but the Dikitrikimickynickyitis has kicked in. :thumbs:


    Running on the rollers, I noted how close the front sandpipe were to the roller and that they were closer to the rails than those further back. No shorting occurred either on the rails or the rollers, but I gave them a little tweak to ring them in line with the others.

    JohnFla, Tonyb, Deano747 and 14 others like this.
  12. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Peter, cheers, I'll order some up, I think something similar is in order.

    I won't have a problem with the boiler though, it's resin ;) but I may with the frame tops, unless I've got my height very wrong there's very little of the rim showing above the frame tops, not even the full thickness of the Slaters tyre is visible, maybe 1/3rd or so.

    Looking at the frame drawings the rims protrude roughly 3" above the frame which is 1.75 mm on O scale or call it 2/2.25 mm with O fine rims, mine is set at 2.3 mm all round so maybe a little low. That doesn't leave a lot of rim for a side wiper affair like yours.
  13. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Yes, the resin boiler is an advantage in that respect as well as others

    The frame height below the wheel rims on the Gladiator kit is fixed by the echings as the front and rear axles are rigid. Wonder if the designer compromised on the frame height??? I would have liked to have the wipers on the edge of the flanges but there was no clearance with the splashers. I think going lower down with wipers is nigh on impossible on the Duchess due to the springs hangers etc, and would have a very negative impact on the appearance.

    I'm giving the flange edge wiper a shot, as Richard posted good things about wipers done this way. From the limited running I've done so far on "our kid's" layout, I'm pleased. I like your inverted U approach which I think I'll try, albeit morphed into an inverted V. Good luck wit the pick ups, whatever you decide on.
  14. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Following the hint from Mickoo regarding bending the wiper to a U where it rubs on the edge of the flange, I have bent the ends to a slight V as it's easier to do and will function the same.

    This image shows it better. Judicious running back and forth showed no sign of the wipers moving of the rim.

    Since then end of February I have been posting from my tablet using photos taken on the tablet's camera. It's only 8MP so unless the light is very good the image quality suffers. My phone which had a 13MP camera was better and occasionally I used that instead. It's just run out of contract and my new phone has a 16MP camera. This image is noticeably better than both the old phone and the tab, so from now on I'll stick to that and either post from the phone or transfer them to the tablet.
    I've dismantled the chassis to clean it up after recent work on the pick ups and sandpipes. I'll black up the wheels and reassemble it until it can be painted. Oh yes, I'll replace the hand wheels on the back plate as well.

    Tonyb, Deano747, Focalplane and 9 others like this.
  15. Brian McKenzie

    Brian McKenzie Western Thunderer

    Those last photos [new camera] reveal your excellent work with great clarity, thanks Peter.

    Something I have puzzled over, not being intimately familiar with the finer points of Stanier, and similar style designs - did the top of the dome cover take on a horizontal alignment (allowing for the curvature), with its skirt canted to match the taper of the boiler?
    The reason I ask is that a similar model loco, exquisitely finished, is adorned with a dome cover where its top is parallel with the skirt - and it presents the odd look (for a locomotive) of a hat worn by a person at a jaunty angle.

    -Brian McK.
  16. Dave Holt

    Dave Holt Active Member

    The short answer to your question is "yes". Stanier domes compensated for the boiler taper.
    Brian McKenzie likes this.
  17. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Hi Brian,
    The top of the dome cover should be horizontal and the top feed cover vertical. I have also seen models where the dome was as you describe or the top feed cover leaning, suggesting either poor castings, or that the casting has been fixed back to front.
    Brian McKenzie likes this.
  18. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Today I chemically blackened the driving wheels before reassembling the chassis, which was given a good clean yesterday.

    The cables were resoldered to the copper clad on the motor using multicore, as I didn't want flux splatters on the nice clean chassis.

    A couple of photos showing the side play restrictors for the pony truck.

    When painted black I doubt if they will visible, even from this low angle.

    I cleaned up the body and it will be put away in the box until it can be painted. I want it in running order until then in case I get the opportunity to give it a run somewhere.


    It's been a pleasure to build and it's a great shame that the David Andrews kits are no longer readily available. The design method is tried and tested and the kit goes together well, albeit with one or two small errors, most notably the over wide side tank parts in the cab and the etched spring detail on the pony, being of the type fitted to the Fowler 2-6-4T. The kit design lends itself well to make the boiler and firebox detachable via screws, which is a great aid to painting and was useful in sorting out the pick up clearances inside the body.

    The white metal castings are excellent and I did not replace any. The nickel and brass castings are mainly of a similar quality, although the oil boxes for the front of the tanks are way too big and needed quite a lot of fettling to get them acceptable. The square shanks on the buffers are a neat and simple way to keep the oval buffers horizontal and work just as well as the more complex offerings with the MOK 4MT.

    So that's it done and dusted for a while. I'll keep it in the box away from the workbench, but no doubt it will still be dirty again in week's time. Next build is coming up on a new thread.

    Thanks for all the positive comments and likes, as well as the tips, suggestions and corrections.

    JohnFla, mickoo, PeteB and 17 others like this.
  19. Dave Holt

    Dave Holt Active Member

    A superb model, Peter. I look forward to seeing it painted and lined, in due course.
    P A D likes this.
  20. y6tram

    y6tram Active Member

    Excellent and very informative, will no doubt refer to some of your photos when I get back to my model
    P A D likes this.