7mm David Andrews Patriot.

Discussion in 'Area 51' started by MerseyMan, 19 February 2016.

  1. David Boorman

    David Boorman Member

    I have the DA kit waiting on my shelf. Is there any more you can report - please!?
  2. MerseyMan

    MerseyMan Active Member

    Hi David, Its funny how you should ask that? After many months I've just recently done some work on 45509 it and its finally starting to look like a loco. I will take some pictures tomorrow and report back.
    mswjr likes this.
  3. MerseyMan

    MerseyMan Active Member

    OK so a quick update were I'm currently at.


    This must be some kind of record for the slowest kit build in history. I couldn't get any quarter round brass for the beading between the smokebox and boiler so I went with super Stryene instead. It actually went really well but I was worried about it dissolving when it came to the pre-paint wash. So off it came. In the end I went with 1/2 round brass instead and flooded the gap with solder. The whitemetal bits have just been placed on for the picture so don't be alarmed if they look slightly off. The boiler, cab, firebox and running plate are all now soldered together straight and level so it should be plain sailing from here. Not shown in the picture is the also completed brass backplate and pipework which had to be extensively modified so it would sit in between the narrow frames. This, along with the wooden cab floor has been fully removable with 14ba screws. I'll try and take some better close ups of the individual bits of detailing like the scratch build reverser and the little bit of firebox/splasher cladding beneath it when I have a little more time
  4. MerseyMan

    MerseyMan Active Member

    A couple more pictures taken on the ipad. Aren't close ups so cruel. Firstly the front end which shows the boiler/smokebox beading more clearly. The relief valve is a lovely casting from the much missed Reynolds range / Hobbyhorse developments. I'd like these to remain in there natural colour so Ive made them screw into the white metal casting and can be removed for painting. The buffers are self contained units from MOK and the buffer support brackets are much modified ones from Laurie Griffin. The chimney and dome have only been placed on for photographs. They will get some bolt detail added at a later date.


    The kit is missing the flange around the splashers. It was also missing the bit of beading that neatly joins the firebox with the splashers, So they were added. I also added some bit of waste etch to represent the tops of the mainframes which can just be seen along the inside of the running plate. The reverser was very 2 diamentional which was intended to be soldered directly onto the running plate. This was unacceptable so I scratch built one with a forked end, cut out the T section and passed it through the running plate.


    The cab has also been heavily modified. I used some L angle for the rain strip and also replaced the crappy deflection plate with ones from Hobbyhorse. The handrail also received some improvements. 2 washers were used to tidy up the middle section and a cast lamp bracket was cut up and filed to shape as a representation of the casting were it joins the cab roof. Again the safety valves are only temporarily placed on. You can just make out the webbing that was added around the crank pins. The bits fittings on the pipe that runs along the boiler were cut up from various castings and drilled out to accept the pipe.

    And a general view of the loco and tender. A massive thanks to Mick D for his help.

  5. David Boorman

    David Boorman Member

    Wonderful to see you renewed efforts - and little frightening to find how much attention has to be paid to questionable detail!

    The thing that has held me up from building my 7mm kit and finishing a Brassmasters 4mm kit is the pipework under the cab for the injectors etc. I cannot find any decent drawings or photos that give me any confidence in what goes from where to where. Guesswork is possible but I'm hoping that one day someone will say "no problem, I have images!" - could this be you?!!
  6. David Boorman

    David Boorman Member

    Oooh! One more thing! How did you obtain your Hobbyhorse part/s? My understanding was that they are not trading but looking for a buyer for the business - but I could well be very wrong!
  7. LarryG

    LarryG Western Thunderer

    Gotta admit this is the first I knew of this additional webbing on wheels other than those fitted to LNWR Claughtons. The first two Patriots had Claughton wheels of course.
  8. MerseyMan

    MerseyMan Active Member

    Hi Larry. Yes, in preservation all 4 Jubilees have them aswell as 45407 which is the only preserved example to still carry them. Although I've not checked, I presume the Unknown Warrior also has them as they used the same pattern Carnforth used for 45699s replacement wheelsets.

    Hi David. Thanks. Sadly I cant help you on either accounts. Or at least not yet. I bought the hobbyhorse bits years ago when they were stil trading. And as far as the pipework under the cab is concerned, Well I've stil got that bit to come. I do have a GA pipe drawing of an parallel boilered Scot in a book somewhere so I'm hoping that might shed some light on it. Believe it or not, I found the closest thing to a Patriot backhead was that of a Hughes Fowler Crab which shares many features and fittings.

    I'm sure the DA kits build straight out the box into very nice models. However the more I look closely at this one (which I appreciate is a older one), the more I find is missing or completely wrong. Only today I've noticed the brackets that support the crossbeam for the brake cylinder that sits beneath the cab is missing the lightening holes. On comparing them with the drawings it turns out not only are they missing the holes, they are completely the wrong shape and size. So Ive just scratch built new brackets and re-attached them to the chassis. The same applied to the piano front which sits inbetween the main frames just in front of the smokebox. When I folded up the one in the kit, it leaves a great big gap. But if I close the gap, its then sits too close to the smokebox. So I made another one so it fits in the correct position but with no gap near the smokebox.
  9. Brian McKenzie

    Brian McKenzie Western Thunderer

    Just started to read your absorbing thread from page 1, and can advise that small diameter copper and brass
    tubing is available from suppliers of consumables to users of EDM "hole popper" machines.
    The tube is used as an electrode to drill through any depth of hardened tool steel or carbide etc. while dielectric oil
    is pumped down the tiny bore to flush out the 'swarf'.

    EDM Hole Popper Tube_1.jpg

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    A search for "EDM hole popper tube" on eBay displayed this (divide NZ $ price in half to get pounds sterling).
    This could be a good buy for an exhibition trader - to sell on in small amounts?

    EDM Hole Popper Tube_2.jpg

    Toolmakers use these machines commonly, and tube supplies will be available around UK and Europe.
    One caveat, is that in the larger sizes, the 'bore' is sometimes a web of holes. Some drilling will likely
    still be necessary, but having a bore to start with should be helpful.
    Len Cattley, ICH60 and michl080 like this.
  10. MerseyMan

    MerseyMan Active Member

    Hi Brian, Many thanks indeed for this. It will most definitely come in handy for future builds.

    A tiny little update. As with most things on this build recently, the lifting arm from the kit is the wrong shape. It should look something like this ... Lifting Arm.jpg

    The one in the kit is more like those found on a Jubilee or Scot. The Patriots are different in that it has a flat milled on one end. So I cut out some new ones on a piece of scrap etch and filed the ends to shape.


    Last edited: 20 April 2020
    P A D, 3 LINK, mswjr and 5 others like this.
  11. Brian McKenzie

    Brian McKenzie Western Thunderer

    Looking good . . . I have often wondered about this style of lifting link, seemingly favoured by LNER and probably for some other British designs.

    Does the sliding action offer a variation to valve events compared to that from a pivoted swinging link suspended from above?

    I can see one advantage in that the weighshaft might pass under the boiler without needing to be cranked.
  12. Isambarduk

    Isambarduk Western Thunderer

    Yes, it is true. I have just completed a build of a David Andrews kit of British Legion but there is quite a bit of DLOS-Manufacturing components in it - all part of the journey, for me :)

    British Legion - just the sanding gear and few other parts to go (now all fitted)

    P A D, Len Cattley, David B and 7 others like this.
  13. MerseyMan

    MerseyMan Active Member

    Very nice David. Very nice indeed. If mine ends up half as good as that I'll be happy
    Isambarduk likes this.
  14. David Boorman

    David Boorman Member

    Thank you for all your observations! Your comments about the pipework for the parallel boiler Scot and the Crab jolted me to think maybe the Patriot cab underfloor pipework could be similar to the Crab - time for me to dig very deep into my books to find the relevant Wildswan book. If only I hadn't packed up all my 'library' in readiness for a now suspended house restructuring!

    I agree with your comment about 'straight out the box', but this is where Western Thunder comes into it's own with people, like you, sharing their thoughts and successes in creating stunning representations from the groundwork that came 'out of the box'. You give people like me the encouragement to stretch our observational and building skills as far as we can and thus increasing the selfish pleasure we can gain from each build. Yes, it is a selfish pleasure, even if we are building on behalf of someone else - and why not!!

    Cheers! David
    Pencarrow likes this.
  15. MerseyMan

    MerseyMan Active Member

    Hi David, I'm flattered.

    While the weather was nice this evening I decided to take a couple more pictures while it was outside. Only with the Ipad I might add so nothing special.

    This is the current state of play inside the cab. I have a wooden floor to add that I made from coffee stirrers which hides all the gaps. To compensate for the width of the wooden floor, I lowered the etched floor by about 1mm. I don't think the gap between the two splashers are present on the real thing but this was necessary in order to make the whole thing a nice sliding fit. I abandoned the idea of the retaining screw behind the fire hole doors and instead went for x2 14ba screws tapped into the floor. The gaps look quite big in the pictures but I'm hopeful once everything is painted black they wont be noticeable. Things I have that still need to be added are the reverser (A large boilered claughton one from Laurie Griffin), drain taps handle to go in the bracket already made up on the LHS, a number of oil boxes and associated pipework plus all the grubbings on the ceiling. I also punched out the missing rivets on the dragbox



    This is the new bracket I mentioned in a previous post, now with lightening holes and to the correct shape. The castings for the bearings are from MOK


    And now a few of the loco in general. There are lots of things still only placed on for the pictures so dont worry if anything is slighty wonky.


    I thought I was wasting my time adding the dummy frames along the running plate so I'm glad they are noticeable from this angle.
    Last edited: 25 April 2020
  16. Lancastrian

    Lancastrian Western Thunderer


    Do my eyes deceive me or is there a glaring error in your photo ?

    Isambarduk likes this.
  17. Isambarduk

    Isambarduk Western Thunderer

    Could be either way. David
  18. Ian Rathbone

    Ian Rathbone Active Member

    I've just caught up with this thread. I notice that you have not removed the hinges from the left side of the coal door. It's a folding door with a set of hinges in the middle at the back of the door. There is a small slot in the RH door and a corresponding loop on the back of the LH one, when opened fully the loop passes through the slot and a hook, which is attached to the top of the RH tool box, goes onto the loop to hold the doors open. I was caught out when I built my Patriot and had to do a late alteration.

    Ian R
    P A D and oldravendale like this.
  19. MerseyMan

    MerseyMan Active Member

    Drat!!! Your absolutely right. It shouldn't be too hard to take off so I'll fixed it when I come to add the fire iron supporty thing. Cheers. If you do spot anymore please keep telling me.
    oldravendale likes this.
  20. Ian Rathbone

    Ian Rathbone Active Member

    My kit was the Gladiator version. The loco part was built virtually as it came, apart from springing the chassis and making forked ends for the union links. Plus making the boiler/firebox removable for painting and leaving off the boiler bands. So no where near the extra work you've put into yours.

    I paid a bit of attention to the front of the tender by adding the water feed cocks, rotating coal door locks and detailing the various hinges. You may notice the hook on top of the RH tool box, nothing to hook onto though!


    It did have the locking levers for the tender side doors but they fell off years ago!


    Ian R
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