Finney 7 LNER A4

Discussion in 'Area 51' started by P A D, 1 October 2018.

  1. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Hi Mick,
    Sounds like you made the right decision on the chimney. Having it cast insitu gives a better result at the joint and if the later chimney is required, then it's easy to reprofile the back end with files, easier in fact than doing it with white metal as I did on the A4.

  2. simond

    simond Western Thunderer

    Thanks Peter,

    It was a little tongue-in-cheek, but joking aside, it is an inspiration and an education to see the quality, craftsmanship & sheer skill of some of the builds on WT.

    And, despite having more of a preference for Deep Bronze Green rather than Apple Green locos, watching your, and Mick's builds (and Tim W’s 2mm 2-8-2) is an absolute pleasure.

    mickoo and P A D like this.
  3. djparkins

    djparkins Western Thunderer

    I fully agree - Mick's work is incredible, I'd say, and such photos will be invaluable for the instructions.

    However, I struggle with both the MOK and Martin Finney instructions, as they both lack the isometric 'Airfix' style assembly drawings most of us grew up with and are used to. For our own most recent Flightpath/Firing Line military vehicle kits, we have been including colour-coded by material assembly drawings [we've been doing that for ages on MMP], but now showing all the parts fitted together, by colour, at the end of each assembly sequence. I can quite understand why not many manufacturers do this as they take absolutely ages to produce! Well worth it though IMHO.

    Of course this is all refinement at the top of the tree - most railway kit/vehicle kit instructions are truly awful.

  4. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Hi David,
    My only experience of your kits is the 7mm 08 built many years ago. I don't recall what the instruction were like , but what you describe as your current standard sound very interesting. When my daughter was younger she very much like Playmobil and we gave her two or three quite large sets for Christmas presents, that yours truly had to assemble. A school and a circus springs to mind and I recall that the instructions were very similar to what you describe and very easy to follow. You mention the extra time it takes to produced them and I assume therefore the cost, which I'm sure to a global manufacturers will be negligible in terms of the thousands of units that they will sell, compared to a "cottage industry" kit manufacturer.

    However, I quite like the F7 and MOK instructions although the latter do tend to go AWOL now and again throughout the build. That said, some builders including me, sometime go off piste, thinking they know better than the guy who wrote the instructions and then come unstuck.

    Whether the F7 approach is the best way to provide instructions can be debated, but I would say that from the point of view of the excellence of the build and the cleanliness of the model in the photos, Mick need have no worries.

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  5. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer


    I've still got my MMP 57 in the loft :eek::p and yes the isometric views are a great help and certainly a different approach to visualising or getting across the information. They do require a different skill set in that drawing accurate scale 3D images takes time, most instructions work on 2D drawings and like you say, it's often hard to visualize it in a 3D context.

    We've opted for photos coupled with dialogue and 2D drawings, but mostly photos and text in my case. The photo is another variant of 3D but unlike drawings, can become cluttered and difficult to visualize, especially if you're talking about a small item on a large model. They're also very difficult to present well and light effectively, they'd be perfect in undercoat grey but that'd restrict the photo taking to the end or near the end.

    I don't think there's one correct or pure way to present instructions and yes, overall, instructions are the one biggest area of gain this hobby can make or improve on.

  6. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    More scratch building. First the buffer beam, or at least the two outer portions up to the frames were added. Then a rivetted strip was horizontally fitted in line with the top edge of the buffer beam and the triangular gusset soldered on top. The middle portion of the beam was left off as it brings nothing to the party, being completely hidden behind the front casing. The narrow spacer above the lifting holes is for mounting the infill which closes the gap above the 2:1 levers.

    In this view you can see the riveted strip supporting the inner edge of the gusset. Also visible are the fixing brackets for the front bogie wheel splasher. I cut up one of the superfluous deep valances, which had a suitable row of parallel rivets to make these. I've noted in various prototype photos, that the tube for inserting the cod's mouth winding handle, did not extend beyond the bracket so I filed them back.

    T'other side.

    There were actually two types of insert for the winding handle as seen here from this cropped image from the Book of the A4s. On the left Empire of India and on the right Guilimot. The mechanism on EoI is the same as Bittern in preservation, which I thought was a post BR modification but maybe not. Golden Fleece had the type on the right.

    Here's a view with the insert made from waste fret. It's made from 4 pieces, the top with the inserts butt joined to either side, plus a strengthening gusset between.

    And in place. It is retained by a short 12BA screw. The brass rivets added above the hole are to represent the nuts on the prototype. The outer ones would have been at the joint if I had spaced them the same as the punched ones at the bottom, so I widened the spacing to clear.

    On the other side the gap is smaller as only one lever passes through.

    And with the cylinders replaced. Two strips of waste fret have been soldered to the cylinder top plate to fill the gap in the frames and block the light that was showing when looking from a low angle. No great strength is required and a simple but joint is sufficient. 20190109_191325.jpg

    T'other side. Later I will drill holes in the top of the valve slides and add the oil pipes from copper wire.

    And with the body on. Not perfect, but passes must tucked away under the running plate.

    The front gravity sand pipes are now on. To make them more robust, I added a small piece of waste fret behind the pipes to anchor them the rear bogie wheel splasher.

    The steam sanders to the middle driving wheels needed modifying to accommodate the sand valve I added from spares. I cut the steam pipes off first, drilled a hole to accept replacenents from copper wire, then shaped and soldered the sand pipes to the sand valve. I then epoxied the sand valve to the sandbox. The sand valve includes the flange and fixing bolt details, so I had to remove them from the sandbox. Fortunately they are white metal because it would have been impossible to do with them already fitted and the brake gear in place. Lack of planning on my part. Once the epoxy was set I added the steam pipes and routed them up inside the frames and soldered. Lastly the sandpipe brackets were added from thin brass strip and anchored inside the spring shackles. I thought I had completed all the external detail on the frames, but I have just realised I still need to add the tops of the brake hanger brackets.:headbang:

    To improve the slide bar bracket, I filled in the gaps above the radius rod with waste fret, filed the curve and then added the beading to the top edges.

    I finally got around to adding the castle nuts to the coupling rods to replace the 1.6 mm NS wire originally used.

    More scratch building at the rear of the running plate. All easy stuff of course and makes a change from just reassembling. This is the bracket that was left behind whrn the Flaman speed recorders were removed. It's just a rectangle folded from brass strip with a couple of rivets punch at the bottom outer edge. It's is just soldered to the under side of the footplate. On the real thing it was also attached to the rear frame, but on the model, we need to be able to separate the two.

    I'm up to 15 images, so to be continued.....
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  7. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer


    At the other, the junction box for the AWS conduit has been added from square section brass rod. Before soldering this in place, I solder the length of 0.6mm NS wire used for the conduit into the brass section with 220 solder. The box was thrn soldered to the valance with 145 solder. I then cut a thin strip of brass Shinto make the conduit clips. These were shaped around a separate piece of 0.6 mm wire and threaded onto the conduit. They were made overlong to trim after soldering. They were lined up and soldered one at a time starting at the back and working forwards. Before soldering the last two, the wire was bent and routed inside the front casting then the remaining clips were fixed. As the last but one is on the cylinder cover that was cut to length before threading onto the conduit. The other clips which were extending below the bottom of the valance, were snipped and filed flush. Finally the wire inside the casing was fixed with epoxy.


    Here's the conduit run. 20190109_190213.jpg

    Looks like a bit more cleaning up is needed at the end of the conduit.


    On the inside of the casing, it's not easy to see in this photo, but the conduit is epoxied in place. The bash plate was fixed with 16BA nuts and screws, with some super glue for good measure. 20190109_191214.jpg

    For Golden Fleece, two extra rivets are needed above the hinges on the lower cod's mouth door. Hopefully the won't stand out so much from the resin cast ones when painted.

    Back on the wheels it looks the part. The steam pipes are doing my head in as they are so vulnerable. I've lost track of the number of times I've dinked them !


    I've ordered the injectors from Ragstone and once they are on and piped up and the tops of the brake hanger brackets added, that's all the detail on the chassis done. That just leaves the cab interior, and bracket for the smoke box number plate, but if anybody spots anything I've missed then please let me know.

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  8. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Having fettled the castle nuts to improve the rounded appearance I was still not happy with them. Here's how they come. There are only 6 castelations when there should be 8, but nothing can be done about that. However after filing the ends to make them flat, the representation of the bolt is lost as shown in the last post but one. 20190111_150605.jpg
    Here they are after some work to restore the bolt end. Using a jewellers beading took, I centre punched the face of the castings to produce an indented circle. It's not perfect but I think better than it was. 20190111_150216.jpg

    T'other side looks a bit better.

    I was also not happy with the front reversed crank pin bearings. As they were they needed tightening with a small pair of pliers, which was ultimately going to slip and cause damage. I therefore drilled two opposing holes to allow the bushes to be tightened with the ends of a pair of tweesers or Romford crank pin screw driver. More of a compromise on the appearance, but better from a practicality point of view.

    And the left hand side. In this view the the piece of waste etch soldered between the front sand pipe and the rear bogie wheel splasher can just be seen, but unless you really look for it, it is not noticeable.

    Moving on to the smoke box number plate bracket, this is what I knocked up from waste etch and NS rod. The rods are inserted in holes in the upper God's mouth door and fixed with super glue. The actual number plate will be glued to this after painting. I trimmed the rod to less than half the length shown, before fitting. 20190111_201842.jpg

    Here we see it in place.

    And a head on view.

    And from the side.

    Another view with the tender.

    With regard to adding the tops of the brake hanger brackets, I think I'm going to pass on that. As you can see, clearance between the wheels is very tight and without narrowing the hanger brackets above the brake block, any top piece would have to be narrower. Again, bad planning as I should have filed the bracket part of the etching before fitting. I would have to take them off to do it and that ain't happening.



    I'm just waiting for the injectors from Ragstone to complete the exterior detailing, then it's on to the cab interior.

    Going off on a slight tangent, I fitted the dummy buffer spring castings to the rear of the buffer beam on the A3. 20190111_195944.jpg


    In the light of my experience with the A4, I'll be making one or two further changes as well.
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  9. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Speaking of the devil in the last post, these arrived today from Ragstone. 20190112_182605.jpg
    As on the A3, the large diameter pipe that runs forward between the frames from the exhaust steam injector, will have to be made detachable so that the radial axle box can be removed.

    This image is cropped from one of Mickoo's on his recent W1 thread. I show it to illustrate an omission on the A4 front end, notably the double row of horizontal rivets on the side of the casing above the cowl for the buffers. This feature was on most of the A4s although the number of rivets, (dome headed screws I believe) could vary. As best I can tell, Golden Fleece had the same as the W1.
    Here's the A4 after marking out. I went over the marks with a lead pencil, then wiped with a damp cotton bud to make them stand out. Although not 100%, I'm happy with the spacing and will go with this.

    On the other side in not happy with the front two marks and will fill and smooth them and try again. Just noticed I've lost the top rivet in the side of the cowl cleaning up after adding the AWS conduit. Oh bother said I. Well it began with "b" anyway. :rant:

  10. Dikitriki

    Dikitriki Flying Squad

    I'm speaking from experience when I say that those rivets are bloody horrible to put on. It's not only getting the holes in the right place, the rivets themselves will be at all sorts of angles due to the curves of the casing. The only saving grace is that the real thing was all over the place too.

  11. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    No worries Richard. I'll bring it around to your house tomorrow and you can put the rivets on for me. ;)
  12. Dan Randall

    Dan Randall Western Thunderer

    Surely a job for some Archer 3D printed rivets? I used them on the smokebox front of the Southern O2 tank I'm building. They come in strips and are just applied as you would an ordinary waterslide transfer, though due to the curvature of the smokebox, these were put on individually....

    Edit - Here's what they look like after painting....


    Last edited: 13 January 2019 at 07:39
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  13. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Hi Dan,
    Thanks for the heads up on the Archer 3D rivets. I'll look them up and give them further consideration. Failing that it's back to plan B at Richard's house. :D
    Dan Randall likes this.
  14. Dikitriki

    Dikitriki Flying Squad

    I'll put the kettle on.....
    P A D and 3 LINK like this.
  15. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    Another vote for Archers rivets. See the plated in lavatory windows on my Maunsell push-pull set. The rivets were applied after priming.

    100_1856 - Copy.JPG 100_1864.JPG IMG_5137.JPG
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  16. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Well for better or worse, I went with 0.5mm brass wire filed flat, pushed into pre-drilled holes and super glued on the inside.


    As far as I can tell number 30 only had 10 fastenings (hex bolts not screws as I originally thought) so I will need to fill the marks makes with the pricker.

    The rivets on the lower door were removed and the holes counter sunk, before refitting. They are less proud than they were but could do with being slightly smaller in diameter.

    Back on the chassis, I have added the oil pipes to the valve guides. The base is 0.8mm OD/0.4mm ID brass tube with 0.4mm copper wire. They are just butt soldered to the valve guides then routed and anchored to the cylinder top. There should be a couple of oil pipes to the top of the upper slide bars, but it's too tight to get in there, solder and clean up, so I'm passing on those.

    They are barely visible with the body on, particularly the front ones.

    T'other side. 20190115_212739.jpg

    At the back end I have added the firebox/frame retaining brackets from waste fret. On the left side I epoxied the part to the frames as the reversing lever made it difficult to get in with the iron. The frames have the rivets half etched but no bracket. These had to be removed to allow the bracket to sit properly on he frame.

    T'other side. I also added an extension to the firebox above the bracket to block the daylight showing from low angles.

    Here the extensions and joining pieces can be seen.

    Underneath the injectors and pipework have been added. The larger pipe is detatchable to allow the radial axle box to bd removed. It just slots into the exhaust injector and is held by a 10 BA screw on the bracket. At the front, I have routed it upwards behind the rear axle, but in the prototype it runs forward.

    Here's another view from above this time with the draw bar screwed in.

    Some of the pipe work is routed up behind the drag beam and soldered to the rear face of the rear spacer. I will start filling the cab next now that all the external detail is on.

    Here you can see the bracket added to the cartazzi frames with the body on.

    On the right it is more visible as the reversing rod is not obscuring it. Here you can see where I have filled a hole in the cab side, which I assume was just an etching fault. Needs a bit more cleaning.

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  17. Genghis

    Genghis Western Thunderer

    Brilliant work again!
  18. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Many thanks David.

    Looking at the images on the laptop, I think the fastenings added to the front casing look too proud, so I'll be giving them a rub down later.

  19. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    A start has now been made on the backplate and cab inner detail. The first job was to drill a hole through the cab floor to clear a 12BA bolt.

    I then added a base to the white metal backplate casting. The centre portion of the base was made double thickness then a hole drilled and tapped 12BA.

    The backplate can then be inserted and retained by a 12BA bolt through the floor.

    Next the castings for the raised parts of the footplate were epoxied in place and the reversing column and handle added. The holes for the various fittings were drilled and a start made on adding the detail. So far the whistle operating shaft and handles have been fitted. The gauge glasses and valves are just pushed in the holes for now.

    And with the roof loosely in place.


    I see the roof has come asked in this view.

    At the front end some rubbing down of the fastenings has be done, but a bit more is needed.


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  20. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Some further progress on the backplate. 20190117_185000.jpg

    A test fit shows that it can be got in and out easily, so it can be left off, painted separately and put in after the loco is finished.

    I must clean up the epoxy that oosed from under the left hand floor casting.


    A test fit of the roof showed that the top corners of the steam manifold prevented it from seating properly. A few strokes with the file either side has cured that. I'm going to add a strip of brass above the window frames, which will provide more surface area to epoxy the roof on after the backplate finely goes in. There are a couple of short strips either side at the overhang, which will give a secure fitting for the back end. I'll do the same on the A3. I think the remaining cab dials are fixed to the roof, but I'll check the instructions first

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