Finney 7 LNER A4

Discussion in 'Area 51' started by P A D, 1 October 2018.

  1. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    As Proof Reader in Chief I declare an interest! When I read newspapers, books or instructions and find a spelling, syntax or other technical error (Grocers' Apostrophe?) it irritates the hell out of me. Then I get a set of instructions to read and things slip by......always. None of us are professional proof readers but most of the time, despite errors, the meaning comes through. And I'm in the camp that uses the words and then the pictures to back up what I understand from the words.

    As Mick says, latest versions will be on the web site. When we order new paper editions of the instructions for kits as they are manufactured they will contain the alterations. I'm currently reviewing all our it instructions to check specifically that the sundries contents are correct which involves reading the instructions through in full, yet once more, and continue to find errors I've missed at the first, second, third or nth pass, and in Simon's considerable experience it unusual in the extreme for any technical document to be 100% correct, front to back. That doesn't mean we won't keep trying.

    Peter - lovely build. You can see we're all learning something from this one.

    P A D likes this.
  2. daifly

    daifly Western Thunderer

    There's a bit missing from your kit!
    jamiepage, oldravendale and mickoo like this.
  3. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Very interesting stuff. I'm a lefty and lean towards diagrams. I like the mention of the impact of the environment. In my case I work in a restricted space and much as I like the A3 format, I have to get up and go down stairs to the dining table to be able to spread them out, so I tend to just hold them in my lap and give them a quick scan. So no excuses for the sandbox error and misinterpretation of the comments regarding the compensation beam and brake hanger pivot. It's just me being a dozy, lazy git!

    That said the rest of the instructions are are crap. I've just finished the A4 following the instructions to the letter, jumping up and down to the dining table, spreading out the instructions, reading and re-reading. This is how it turned out.


    Hahaha :D:D:D:D.

    Did I get you going there Mick? Just been to the bottle bank and saw this parked up and couldn't resist it.

    Back to reality, in my case I was careless, as having re-read the passage regarding the sandbox, it's clear enough and common sense should have told me I was on the wrong track, so no complaints from me. It's still a top end kit and the instructions are great. Can't wait to have a go at some of the new offerings as and when.
    3 LINK and fenman like this.
  4. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    I see I'm going to have to work up some new overlays to match those wheels, the rear one seems to be the lessor know Bullied 16" trailing wheel variety, the leading one I'm not sure of its origin :eek:

    Overall there generally (within modellers) seems to be an air of "the instructions are secondary and I've built before so know what I'm doing".

    The more high tech the kit becomes then the more pressure there is to read the instructions and I am genuinely concerned over the W1 as it is a very complex kit and the B1 will be even more so.

    Peter, have you considered a not the little blue ones :D...that way you could download the instructions and scroll or zoom on the digital copy in your work space.
  5. Dog Star

    Dog Star Western Thunderer

    I am glad to read that F7 is giving thought to how purchasers of their kits "see" and "use" the relevant instructions. I suspect that there might be some people who have bought recent releases who could suffer from Dyslexia and the variant of that condition which goes under the heading of "word blindness" - in which case preference may be given to the drawings rather than the text on the basis that access to the meaning of the text is more difficult than "getting the picture" from the drawings and illustrations.
  6. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Hi Mick,
    The pizza guy really pushed the boat out on the front wheel. I've seen this "loco" a few times when recycling bottles but I've never seen it doing business. The guy must ply his trade in a layby somewhere.

    As to your comment "Overall there generally (within modellers) seems to be an air of "the instructions are secondary and I've built before so know what I'm doing", is true in my case. Generally it works OK but as has just happened, you can come unstuck.

    I did have to pay more attention with the compensation on the MOK 4MT and more so on the A4, which potentially has more pitfalls. As this was the first time I have build a fully compensated chassis of this type, I was very apprehensive cutting out the slots for the horn guides and spent a lot of time convincing myself all was well, before tack soldering and finally fully soldering them in place. Still it's a proven system and the chassis rolled sweetly first time. The next time it should be easier.

    As to using a tablet, I prefer working from hard copies. I just need to sort out my work area so I have more space.
  7. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    There is, Dave - a 107 boiler - at least for the A3 kit. But Mick is working on that.......:)

  8. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    The 107 lends it's self easily for adaption (both having the combustion chamber format) to the 118 and that opens a whole new exciting range of prototypes ;)

    Peter, I am the same, look at the picture, guess the gaps and just plough on, and yes, you can become royally stuck up the proverbial creek occasionally :D
  9. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    So on to the leading and trailing wheels. I'm using standard Slaters wheels so some modification of the sliding frame was needed. There not enough metal to ream the holes for 3/16 bearings, so I increased the thickness of the side etch using the sides from the middle and narrow size etchings. For the trailing axle there's no need to use anything but the scale 7 width frame as you then don't need to add washers. Here's the folded frame with the wheels in and the medium and small frames before removing the sides.

    Here are the parts ready to assemble. 20181113_082655.jpg

    The top plate needs adjusting at the ends to fit over the additional sides.
    I used a length of rod and a pair of tweesers to line up the parts for soldering.

    And with the top plate on. After reaming the holes, it's a perfect fit for the axle.

    And with the wheels in. I've polished the the outer faces of the frame to reduce friction, but there's just enough clearance for the wheels to spin freely.

    Placed in the frame it slides freely from side to side under it's own weight.

  10. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Here is the bogie nearing completion. Again I'm using standard Slaters wheels with 3/16 inch axles. The kit provides brass bushes for 5/32 inch axles or white metal bearings/ spring castings. Fortunately there is enough metal in the cast bearings to drill and ream them to take the larger axles. I first soldered the frames to the spacer using a glass plate to ensure they were lined up properly. I then soldered the white metal castings to the frames with 145 degree solder, before drilling and reaming the bearings holes. Note that in each case, the inner cast spring needs filing to clear the vertical parts of the spacer. I would mention that the springs should be longer so that the lock nuts are visible below the bottom edge of the frames, but that does not bother me.

    Here it is with the dust shields fitted. 20181113_184758.jpg

    And a view from the side. I'm in two minds whether to use the Finney set up with simple N/S wire for side control, but for now I've proceeded on the basis that I will give it a go. Therefore the upper central part is bereft of detail, but when under the main frames you can't actually see much. The kit provides three options for the spacer to match the chosen frame spacer width. I've used the middle size as with the frames. It's possibly to use the widest spacers as I have with the trailing axle, and still have clearance for the wheels (just), but I guess it would only negotiate the gentlest of curves, with no side play in any of the axles.

    Here are the bogie and trailing axles under the frames. From the side all looks well. There's no pivot bolt for the bogie yet, but I've added the balance weights to the driving wheels. I ordered the castle nuts for the coupling rods from Laurie Griffin yesterday and they arrived today, so great service.

    Here's a closer view of the front end. As I mentioned, you can't see much through the gap between the top of the bogie and the main frame. Bear in mind that the cylinder drain pipes etc have still to be added, so the view will be further obscured.

    And a close up of the back end. It doesn't look it in this photo, but the centre of the wheels nut does line up centrally in the hole for mounting the cartazzi axle box.

    Here is a view of the full chassis. This is before I added the balance weights and dust guards.
    And with the balance weights on.

    I think I might digress to the upper works next and come back to the chassis later. As to which prototype it will be, I've decided to go for Golden Fleece, the same as my Acme one, as I intend to sell that at some point.

  11. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Coming along nicely :thumbs:
  12. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Thanks Mick.

    The same goes for the County, although you are having to work much harder.

  13. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Just to finish of the rear end before making a start on the body, I added some NS wire spring either side of the axle box. I put them close to the inner frame to avoid touching the rims, but there is room to move them out. Still for now it works OK .

    To retain the axle box I made a simple bracket, screwed to the bottom of the inner frame. 20181114_195229.jpg

    And on to the body. The first thing if to remove any casting lugs and rub smooth the bottom edges. The holes for handrails, lamp brackets and buffers etc were drilled out as specified in the instructions. The resin is much more user friendly than the bullet proof stuff from JLTRT and is quite easy to drill. After that the main running plate and cab floor etching was de-cusped and the drag beam riveted and folded. There are three sacrificial cross members that are removed after gluing and one for the chassis fixing. That is the wider one second from the front. It had a fold up strengthening piece front and back and two 6BA nuts soldered on the top side for the chassis retaining bolts to screw into. First the etching is lined up centrally on the casting, pushed up tight at the front and the position of the screw holes marked in the casting through the holes on the brass. These are then drilled 1.6mm to take the self tapping nuts supplied. Here it is partially screwed to test the fit.

    And looking from the front.

    Some further views.



    20181114_184504.jpg 20181114_184148.jpg

    Imagine the time it would take to get to this stage building it solely from etch parts. On the Acme one I built 15 years ago, there was an inner frame that was built onto the running plate. Then the casing was formed from 4 wrappers, plus further side pieces at the front and white metal casting. That took ages to prepare and solder up all the parts. Then you had to add all the overlays for the details that are already on the Finney 7 resin casting. To be honest, I would be happy to do it with parts from F7, which I'm sure would be easier to assemble than the Ennis designed kit, but it would take a lot more time.
  14. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Here are some photos of the Acme Models A4, just to show how much fun you miss out on by having the resin casting on the Finney 7 one. I had forgotten that the footplate was in two halves. Just think of all that lovely de-cusping, bending, soldering and cleaning up that the resin deprives you of!

    Most of the detail in this shot is also already on the resin casting, so hours more time saved. The blow down valve wase hand made from 6 pieces.
    I found the photos in Tim Watson's article in the MRJ very helpful from a detail point of view, particularly in the area of the lower firebox and ash pan, which involved a lot of scratch building.
    It started out as SNG, but in the end I went with Golden Fleece.

    A lot of rivet detail was lost in blending the castings and brass at the front, so overlays were made to replace it. Doing it now, I would drill and add small rivets now readily available, but alfter painting it looked OK.

    The hardest bit was blending the vertical joint between the brass and white metal casting, and in the end it was less than perfect, as these two shots highlight.

    Not that you can see it, but I also added a representation of the cable running behind the ejector exhaust pipe, to the whistle valve at the front, also scratch built.

    This is the chassis. It was designed for the rear frames and front fteams to be attached to the body, with only the main frames removable. I fixed the rear frames to the chassis. The front section is loose and slots into the body before the chassis.
    It has a simple spring to keep the front valve rods in contact with the rear and it all works as it should. The brass valve rods are scratched and replace the crappy white metal ones that came with the kit. Getting the lubricator linkage to work was a real pain, but I'm expecting an easier time on the current build.

    Still at the time it was £250 for the kit which was much less than the MF or DJH kits, which I could not afford and you learn a lot from building these more difficult kits. The tender could be built as either the 1928 corridor type or the later A4 corriror type. At a pinch you could scratch build the non corridor tender utilising most of the parts.
  15. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    So back to the Finney 7 build. The instructions suggest gluing the running plate to the casing and when cured, adding the overlay shown below. However, doing it that way means the lamination is only soldered at the outside edges. That's probably OK, but I decided to do it differently.

    With the footplate only screwed to the casing, I fitted the overlay and soldered up all round on the under side, taking care not to dwell too long in case the heat melted the resin. I then removed the laminated running plate and soldered the inner edges. After cleaning up it is then screwed glued to the casing with epoxy.

    Note that the outer edges of the strengthening pieces on the cross member need to be trimmed, otherwise they will not fit in between the casing.


    Here it is after the running plate has been glued in place and the screws removed. I drilled an extra hole in the V shaped cross member to allow another screw to be used, to keep it in contact with the V in the rear of the casing until the epoxy had cured. Note that the rear of the V shaped cross member overhangs the rear of the casing and needs filing flush, otherwise the cab front will not butt up tight to the casing. You can see the base of the cab front extends below the cross member.

    Here the cab has been screwed to the footplate to test the fit. The double chimney is just held in place with blue tack for the photo.

    Here's the cab etch ready for folding the sides. There are some extensions top and bottom on either side. These mark where a fold line has to be scored on the inside before the sides are folded. There is a half etch fold in the centre on the back face for making the fold to the cab front. After scoring with a scrawker, the extended markers are cut off and dressed back with a file. There are some laminates to be soldered on the inside and the instructions suggests fitting these before folding, but I preferred to do it the other way round.

    Here's a view looking into the cab from the rear. Again self tapping screws are holding it in place, but it will be epoxied to the rear of the resin casting in due course. The footplate has been made up and the fixing nuts soldered in place.

    Here I include a photo from David Hill's (Ghengis) build from 2015 over on RMWeb. Hope you don't mind David. This shows the location of the front sandboxes, the top edges of which are below the top edge of the frame. post-13840-0-77365600-1419508408.jpg

    Finney 7 have replaced these with more detailed and prototypical castings that include the fixing brackets and an extension at the top that protrudes above the top edge of the frames which to can see here. 20181113_082257.jpg

    This extension butts up against the fixing cross member when the body is placed on the frames and prevents it seating properly. Here it is after filing flush with the top edge of the frames.

    And with the body in place.

    Here's a broadside with the body in place.

    And a view from the other side

    A view from the front. The chimney will need some work to get it to blend nicely with the casing.

    I'm up to 15 images but will add a few more.
    Last edited: 17 November 2018
  16. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Here are a few more gratuitous images.




    I'm starting to get the feeling that a half decent A4 model might be possible from this kit.
  17. Genghis

    Genghis Western Thunderer

    Thought I recognised the table. I miss the Bangkok sunshine...............
  18. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Continuing with the cab, the spectacle plate surrounds, side window frames, boiler back plate extension and floor have been added, as have the brackets for the crew seats, the inner rear cab beading and the hand rails. The instructions suggest adding the beading, window frames and seat supports before making the bends in the cab front for the V and the sides. Much better to do the bending before hand so that the etching can be clamped along the scored lines to make the side bends. 20181119_162402.jpg

    The slots for the back plate extension are still visible, but don't need filling and smoothing as they are hidden when the cs is screwed to the firebox.

    For the wash out plugs on the cab sides 1mm square brass rod is supplied. It's a little too large so I filed it down to about 0.8mm.

    Here the cab has been screwed to the firebox and soldered at the running plate. The cast back plate is only placed for the photo. As with the A3, I will add a bottom plate to it, to allow it to be screwed to the footplate.

    Soldering the overlays after bending was quite easy and there is plenty of room to get in for cleaning up. The top edges of the cab side overhangs are very vulnerable, especially before the beading is added, which does beef them up a bit.

    If you get bored building an A4, you can always convert it to a boat.

    Athe the rear end the lower firebox has been added. The wire running from side to side is the rod for the rocking grate and will be trimmed later. 20181120_201538.jpg 20181120_201623.jpg

    In preparation for fitting the cylinder wrappers, the cylinder frame was folded and screwed in place. 20181120_201435.jpg

    The running plate valance is a single etch running the length of the loco. It includes a backing plate for the cylinder wrappers. I clamped it in the vice to file off the cusp and card needs to be taken to avoid bending it. Here's a view of the front left side showing the wrapper backing plate.

    A the rear it folds in behind the rear drag beam. There is a a lot to locate it and I started at the rear, tacked the turn in behind the drag beam, the made the fold and worked forwards tacking every couple of inches. 20181120_201346.jpg

    When the valance is on the cylinder wrappers can be added. The body is screwed to the chassis and the bottom of the wrapper is folded to the profile of the cylinder frame.

    Here's a full length view before the cylinder wrappers were added.

    And after.


    Attached Files:

  19. Genghis

    Genghis Western Thunderer

    Makes me want to build another one!
  20. simond

    simond Western Thunderer

    Hi Peter,

    If the valence is fixed to the footplate, and the cylinder wrappers are fixed to the cylinder former and the cylinder former is fixed to the chassis, how do you get inside?

    Confused of Folkestone