Genghis's 7mm Workbench

Discussion in 'Area 51' started by Genghis, 28 April 2015.

  1. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    We crossed paths, I edited the above with more info, on another subject mind.

    But yes, bottom of the main stay would also work as well. On the W1 I've opted to make half etch nut shaped recesses to help people visually see where the nut has to go, a trick I've seen on some other kits as well, I even added text marked as 6BA just so they get the right nut too.

    Instructions are bleedin hard work!, I spent ages on the W1 ones for the frames (theres a preview link on the W1 thread somewhere), having struggled for a long time with some kit instructions I opted to try and make them very visual and concise, almost to the point of egg sucking, but sometimes you have to. What is blindingly obvious to the developer and builder, very often isn't to the customer.

    I take the view that they can then ignore them if they already kow what to do, but it's impossible to guess if you have no information to start with.

    Mick D
    Last edited: 19 April 2016
  2. Steph Dale

    Steph Dale Western Thunderer

    'Tis true, in my experience it can take the same sort of time to develop the instructions as it does to design the artwork. And, as you say, it requires some thought to work out the level of knowledge you're going to assume for your average builder (if not actually the average builder)
  3. daifly

    daifly Western Thunderer

    If you plan for the average, you will potentially go over the heads of 50% of your builders!
    jamiepage likes this.
  4. Steph Dale

    Steph Dale Western Thunderer

    I confess I was thinking modal, rather than median or mean average, but I take your point!

  5. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Ok, left my camera at work but did find my postings here concerning the frame front section

    My 7mm dabblings | Page 49 | Western Thunder

    Post 968 shows the desired effect, post 965 further up adds some 1:1 information, details and discussion. On yours you'll need to retain the front lightening hole, I also added the cylinder base flanges, only little parts but they do add some detail and weight to this area and are really easy to make up from scrap.

    I really must get back to my A3, but after all the work and efforts on the W1 I'm half inclined to start again with anew bespoke detailed chassis with all the correct stays etc.

    I also added a dummy middle cylinder, it works as a nice light blocker and the top can just be seen under the boiler at the front end so for a bit of scrap bent up it serves a purpose.

    Mick D
  6. Yorkshire Dave

    Yorkshire Dave Western Thunderer

    I agree, instructions are always hard to produce whether in industry or for kits as I've written several instruction manuals in my current job. In the end you have to aim effectively for a novice. I also agree visual instructions are better although creating them is akin to start/stop motion photography. However, a picture is priceless and worth more than 1000 words. Added to which pictures do not have to be translated if a kit is to be sold worldwide.

    In my view what is lacking in some (most) railway kit instructions is an accurate identification and/or numbering of parts. Sometimes we have to take a step back and look at the old Airfix kit instructions we followed in our early kit building careers from which we managed to build reasonable models.

    For me, a good starting point for kits would be for all of the etches/parts to be laid out, photographed and clearly annotated with the word description and part number actually referred to in, whilst maintaining the same terminology throughout, the written instructions. Although I've been building railway kits for many years there are still some instructions and descriptions which would even defy GCHQ and the CIA.

    The last sentence sums it up - the developers/designers in the majority of cases are never the end users.
  7. Genghis

    Genghis Western Thunderer

    After a brief trip back home to attend the Leigh show and pack some kits, I am happy to be back at the workbench. I started on teh brake gear: when I saw this photo I realised I had forgotten to drill out the holes for the pick ups..........
    frame details.jpg

    The brake blocks have been laminated and assembly will continue over the 3 day weekend.
    P A D and Rob Pulham like this.
  8. Genghis

    Genghis Western Thunderer

    It has been a while since I had chance to post, but work has progressed, even with the luxury of another trip home for the Derby show.

    frames 3.jpg

    frames 3.jpg frames 4.jpg
    slide bars.jpg

    valve gear.jpg

    The valve gear is a mixture of DA and Premier parts, mostly held together in pinned forked joints. The exceptions are the joint at the bottom of the expansion links which is formed from a 14BA screw and nut, and the as yet incomplete joint to the crank. this will be a countersunk 14BA screw soldered into the crank. The meat in the premier rod allowed that to be drilled to accept the head of the screw while making it easy to solder the cover in place (well that's the theory).

    I am looking forward to getting this lot in place tonight. I always enjoy valve gear assembly. It should be possible to drive the conjugated gear.
    P A D, mickoo, dibateg and 3 others like this.
  9. Genghis

    Genghis Western Thunderer

    Not had chance to post for a long time. Since the last post I have been back to man the Gladiator stall at Doncaster. Really nice to put some faces to names, so thanks to all who came for a chat. Despite the lack of posts, there has been progress.

    I discovered that there was no clearance between the con rod and the leading coupling rod bush, so I used the tried and tested method of drilling out the Slater's bush and tapping it 10BA. Wheels were also tapped 10 BA and the coupling rod located with a 10BA washer between it and the wheel face, with the securing bush fitted the 'wrong way round'. I like the look of this and will repeat it for the trailing wheel even though clearance is not an issue.

    Front crankpin.jpg

    The valve gear assembly comes as a detachable unit, which is good.

    Valve gear.jpg

    Trial fit of the chassis. As yet the return cranks have not been secured as the next job was to disassemble everything so that the chassis could be painted. I used the Clostermann etch black primer for the first time and am very pleased with it.

    Trial fit valve gear.jpg

    With that out of the way it was time to get on with the body so that I can determine how best to fit the motor and finish the chassis. I like the way there is a jig for assembly. The splashers took some time and had too be redone when I discovered that fitting the sides in the locating tabs in the footplate resulted in them being too far outboard and the splasher tops would not fit properly.

    running plate.jpg

    With that bit done I could get on with the cab sides. I discarded the provided etch beading and used the half round wire (inside and out).
    cab sides.jpg
    The cab was then assembled to the footplate and the boiler sections made up. It took several sessions at the bench to get the boiler built up and the details (boiler bands, washout plugs, mudhole doors and their surrounds) added.


    Some fettling was required at the firebox/running plate join. I resorted to using a slitting wheel to recess the running plate. ON one side it just breaks through, so this formed a useful place to solder the boiler assembly in place. Otherwise this is just held in place by a couple of screws through the spectacle plate and epoxy under the saddle and inside the firebox sides. I am not overjoyed with this arrangement and think that once I have the chimney in place I will try to drill through so that I can get a screw to go through the smokebox/saddle/running plate to hold it more securely.
    Last edited: 21 June 2016
  10. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Looking good, sounds like you had all the same problems that I had! The firebox base and footplate joint took an age with tweaks here and there to get a seamless joint, I could of soldered it like yourself but wanted the boiler to be detachable, certainly at this stage, for painting and lining.

    The splashers are a nightmare, the slots in the footplate for the splasher face are in the correct place, or for S7 clearances, but the splasher tops are for O fine, hence the gap, I left the faces in the right place and just made new wider tops but it was a faff.

    Regarding the smoke box fixing, could you not just drill through from below, solder a nut to the inside of the smokebox and attach a screw from below? I agree, a mechanical fixing as well as adhesive is important at this point.

    Mick D
  11. Genghis

    Genghis Western Thunderer

    The issue with the nut in the smokebox is that there is no longer access. I should have thought about it earlier when there was chance! You live and learn..............
  12. Genghis

    Genghis Western Thunderer

    Slow progress but I'm getting there.

    The chassis was reassembled and united with the body: some minor cleaning up required. Then posed next to the tender.
    together first time.jpg
    She's a long beastie!

    I have started to add the small details.

    running plate details 1.jpg

    And done some plumbing......
    cab details 1.jpg

    I had to take some metal off the bottom of the backhead and sink the steam fountain to get clearance for the cab roof. Not much more to do now I think. However, the details always take time.
    P A D and mickoo like this.
  13. Genghis

    Genghis Western Thunderer

    Detailing continues. The backhead now finished (I think).


    Boiler furniture added. I wasn't happy about the lower firebox handrail on the LHS as it looked like the fitter may have had a dram too many when fitting, so that will be redone.

    left side.jpg
    right side.jpg
    and seeing the photo now I wonder if the handrail knob nearest the spectacle plat isn't a bit low.........
    P A D and dibateg like this.
  14. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer


    It's not your fault, the holes in the etch work are in the wrong place for the lower firebox handrails, the front hole is too low with respect to the rear one, I fitted a backing piece, filled the hole and redrilled new holes in the right place.

    I dimley recall the upper one being wrong as well but just open the hole out a bit but made sure it was still covered by the handrail knob base.

    Mick D
  15. Genghis

    Genghis Western Thunderer

    I did the same as Mickoo - patched the firebox, filled the hole and redrilled.

    firebox lhs.jpg

    Next problem: does anybody please have details of the oil pipe runs? I can sort of guess from photos and I suspect that by the mid 60's no two engines were the same, but it would be nice to have details. I tried drilling out the oil pots to take some wire, but failed miserably, so instead I cut off the gland details, drilled out and then added small bore tube into which I can put some wire. I used 0.4mm but as was pointed out on the other channel, this is a bit bulky so I will downsize.

    Here is a before, during and after photo. It's a shame I didn't get the holes in a straight line but I can tweak a little.
    oil pots.jpg
  16. Genghis

    Genghis Western Thunderer

    Posts have been a bit limited of late as my home PC has blown up and there is only so much as I can get away with in the office.........

    I abandoned the .4mm wire for oil pipes as too chunky. Body assembly is now complete.
    works grey.jpg

    The primer on the tender showed some areas that need attention, so the filler has been out. Looking at this photo (cruel things) the steam pipe looks like it needs a bit of rubbing down as well. Overall I am quite pleased with her.
  17. Genghis

    Genghis Western Thunderer

    The lack of posts has been caused not by a lack of willingness, but more by a blown up PC! Should get that rebuilt this weekend. here are some pictures of the nearly finished article both pre and post priming. The eagle eyes will notice that the left had steam pipe had become separated from the running plate, as had the saddle. The reason being that the front chassis fixing screw was too long and after passing through the fixing nut in the running plate under the saddle, then forced the saddle up as I tried to tighten it. I think this is known as a screw up. Not one of my finer moments. I don't have any pictures of the remedial work as this was done on a fleeting trip back home where I am without the tools I needed to do the final clean up. So I have begged the indulgence of the painter (Paul Moore) to do that for me. I'll post again when she's painted.

    finished backhead.jpg

    finished loco in primer.jpg

    finished loco primer front end.jpg

    finished loco primer rear end.jpg

    finished loco in primer tender.jpg

    finished loco in primer fireman side.jpg

    Next job will be a Gladiator Rebuilt Patriot. I will be using the opportunity presented by these builds to modernise the instructions.
  18. Genghis

    Genghis Western Thunderer

    Work has started on Sir Frank Ree, beginning with the tender, construction of which is similar to Hyperion's.

    The centre axle holes in the frames were elongated so that the middle axle will float.

    002 - Copy.JPG

    Frame spacers tacked on and checked for square:
    Lengths of 0.7mm n/s wire soldered into the centre bearings stop rotation and allow the axle to more vertically. It will rock around a 6BA screw.


    it runs smoothly.

    Lifeguards and scoop have been fitted. I have used some 1mm OD tub for the brake hangers as this will allow the brakes to be made removable.
    Next up: laminate the brakes and form the assembly.
    daifly, Scanlon and Rob Pulham like this.
  19. Genghis

    Genghis Western Thunderer

    I added some nickel silver wire to form springs for the centre axle and completed the brake assembly.


    The brakes are detachable.
    With that complete the tender bogie now awaits painting and a start has been made on the body.



  20. Genghis

    Genghis Western Thunderer

    I am pleased with last night's progress.

    I fitted the tool box and rivet strips to the front plate.


    Then formed and soldered the coal bunker (see here prior to cleaning the solder).

    The front plate was tacked to the running plate and the fit of the bunker checked. I had to cut some material away from the front left hand side recess that follows the angles of the front plate. When satisfied I completed the soldering of the front plate and then fixed the bunker.


    The next job was to form the tender raves. I had not been looking forward to this, but in the end it was straightforward. First I cooked the sides with the creme brulee browner and cleaned up the sides. The finish after annealing reminded me of a practical exercise at university to determine the thickness of the oxide layer formed during heating from its colour. Totally forgotten how to do that now! I marked the points on the tender sides where the front and rear plates show the start of the curve-in and then joined these. A quick check to show that this line was equidistant along its length to the bottom of the tender sides showed all was well. So the bending bars and a length of about 3mm steel rod were used to clamp the side and then the holdfast employed to grab the side along its length and make the bend. The turn-ins at the front were formed similarly.

    I decided that fitting the handrails - and more to the point fitting the sides to the assembly - is a job to be undertaken at the start of a session rather than late on in the evening, so shown here held in place with a rubber band.

    Tonight is the monthly BARMAID (Bangkok Association of Railway Meddlers And Itinerant Dabblers) gathering in soi 23, so fixing the sides will have to wait until tomorrow.