Gladiator 7mm GCR 11F 4-4-0

Peter Cross

Western Thunderer
It does look a little wrong, the prototype seems to end much closer to the bogie wheel. Does the sum of the cab, boiler and smoke box, look a better fit length wise to the frames or footplate. If the later I'd either add a little to the frames or move the irons and attach them behind the buffer plank.
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
This is the model's front end. The frames are a about 3 mm short of the beam, so the irons are too far back. The only drawing I have is by the late Ian Beattie and we all know how accurate some of his drawings are, so I can't for sure work out where the discrepancy is. Assuming it's the running plate can cut through the valances near the front then remove the pieces and beam. Shorten the running plate and valance pieces and refit.

If there is a known dimension could you measure this on the broadside photo, calculate and compare with the kit before committing to cutting?
 

P A D

Western Thunderer
Hi Peter,
If I lengthen the frames/move the guard irons forward, they will be too far from the bogie wheels, so it will still look wrong. I had the Beattie drawing enlarged at my local copy shop, and taking the quoted dimensions, it's the running plate that is too long. The drawing is actually of the D10.
20190925_190434.jpg
20190925_135748.jpg

This is how it looks now after shortening the running plate.
20190925_190323.jpg

And with the bogie slid under.20190925_185607.jpg

To rectify the gap at the cab/ running plate, I deviated from the instructions and fitted the footplate first. This was to ensure the cab sides were parallel. The sides were soldered behind the front plate as per the instructions, so with that in mind, one would expect the footplate to be slightly narrower than the front and slide in between the sides. This was not the case and I had to carefully reduce each edge to get it to fit.
20190925_190235.jpg

It's not so clean underneath, but once its on the running plate this area will be hidden for good.
20190925_185818.jpg

I used the width of the reduced footplate to scribe a line either side of the running plate in the area of the gap, to solder the infill pieces that will aid filling the gap, but also help to align the cab centrally for soldering. I had to file a flat at the top end to clear the front edges of the footplate.20190925_185950.jpg

That was as far as I got today, but I think it will now be a lot easier to fill the gap and make good.
20190925_185652.jpg

20190925_185737.jpg

Cheers,
Peter
 
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Genghis

Western Thunderer
Lovely work as always. I strongly suspect that this was a pre-cad kit. When I built the Scottish variant with the cut back valances I didn't have the large gap at the front of the cab sides. Probably a difference in the valance curve. I've got some etches on order, so will check this out when they arrive.
post-13840-0-25942700-1433591092_thumb.jpg
Sorry for the hi-jack but here is the completed Scots version.
malcolm graeme.jpeg
I added a lubricator drive that isn't supplied in the kit.
 

P A D

Western Thunderer
Hi David,
No worries on the hijack. Feel free to post some more as it's all grist to the mill. I note that the lower cut out in the cab just clears the drive wheel. I had to file the top edge to achieve that on this build. How did you get on with front end?

Your Scots version looks very nice. Suitably work worn but still cared for.

Cheers,
Peter
 

LarryG

Western Thunderer
These might assist. I strongly suspect the bogie is too far back, not the running late too long, but I am only going of photos etc. Leading axle is in line with smokebox door and curve of cylinder coverplate....

WEB D11 A.jpg WEB D11 B.jpg
 

P A D

Western Thunderer
Hi Larry,
Many thanks.
Ignore the position of the bogie, it's a red herring. In most of the photos it's only placed under the frames and not attached with the pivot.

These drawings confirm that the front edge of the guard irons are level with the buffer beam. I'm happy that the running plate was too long as the irons are now level with the beam after I shortened it.

Today I fitted the cab and filled the gap at the slope in the running plate.
20190926_185415.jpg

It looks OK now.
20190926_124653.jpg

Next the firebox. It's just a simple wrapper with a fold down former at the front and a separate one at the rear. It doesn't have the usual Gladiator/Andrews screw in jigs to set the spacing between the front and rear plates, but goes together easily. I've made a start on forming the shoulders, facilitated by good dollops of solder on the inside.
20190926_184320.jpg

A quick test with it screwed to the cab showed it was fouling the driving wheels at the rear edge, so metal has had to be removed.
20190926_184235.jpg

Before grinding away, I added a strip of waste each to replace the tabs that were going to be lost in the process. As can be seen I've added a nut to the inside of the rear plate to allow removal of the firebox and boiler for painting.
20190926_184204.jpg

Here you can see the need to remove the lower edges of the firebox. A little more still needs grinding off.
20190926_184049.jpg

The boiler comes ready rolled along with an overlay to build up the front end for the smokebox.
20190926_184024.jpg

I added a nut to the inside of rear boiler disc before fitting it so that it can be bolted to the firebox and aligned for soldering. Its drooping slightly without the smokebox saddle. 20190926_183820.jpg

On the frames we have a further problem as the boiler fouls the front driving wheels, so further cutting and grinding will be required. It would possibly be OK if built to scale 7 standards. 20190926_183846.jpg

I also made some preparations for fitting the splasher sides, by "panel beating" the inner edge of the running plate with a small ball pien hammer, to allow the sides to sit flat on the lower straight edges. When I've soldered the straight sections, I'll manipulate the running plate further to get it as close as possible to the reverse curve on the splasher before soldering and filling any gaps.
20190926_183947.jpg

Cheers,
Peter
 
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Ian@StEnochs

Western Thunderer
Hi Larry,
Many thanks.
Ignore the position of the bogie, it's a red herring. In most of the photos it's only placed under the frames and not attached with the pivot.

These drawings confirm that the front edge of the guard irons are level with the buffer beam. I'm happy that the running plate was too long as the irons are now level with the beam after I shortened it.

Today I fitted the cab and filled the gap at the slope in the running plate.
View attachment 111732

It looks OK now.
View attachment 111738

Next the firebox. It's just a simple wrapper with a fold down former at the front and a separate one at the rear. It doesn't have the usual Gladiator/Andrews screw in jigs to set the spacing between the front and rear plates, but goes together easily. I've made a start on forming the shoulders, facilitated by good dollops of solder on the inside.
View attachment 111740

A quick test with it screwed to the cab showed it was fouling the driving wheels at the rear edge, so metal has had to be removed.
View attachment 111739

Before grinding away, I added a strip of waste each to replace the tabs that were going to be lost in the process. As can be seen I've added a nut to the inside of the rear plate to allow removal of the firebox and boiler for painting.
View attachment 111737

Here you can see the need to remove the lower edges of the firebox. A little more still needs grinding off.
View attachment 111735

The boiler comes ready rolled along with an overlay to build up the front end for the smokebox.
View attachment 111734

I added a nut to the inside of rear boiler disc before fitting it so that it can be bolted to the firebox and aligned for soldering. Its drooping slightly without the smokebox saddle. View attachment 111730

On the frames we have a further problem as the boiler fouls the front driving wheels, so further cutting and grinding will be required. It would possibly be OK if built to scale 7 standards. View attachment 111731

I also made some preparations for fitting the splasher sides, by "panel beating" the inner edge of the running plate with a small ball pien hammer, to allow the sides to sit flat on the lower straight edges. When I've soldered the straight sections, I'll manipulate the running plate further to get it as close as possible to the reverse curve on the splasher before soldering and filling any gaps.
View attachment 111733

Cheers,
Peter

One of the advantages of S7 is that the wheels fit outside the firebox and you don’t need to make compromises for narrower than scale gauge. So much easier!
 

Genghis

Western Thunderer
Hi David,
No worries on the hijack. Feel free to post some more as it's all grist to the mill. I note that the lower cut out in the cab just clears the drive wheel. I had to file the top edge to achieve that on this build. How did you get on with front end?

Your Scots version looks very nice. Suitably work worn but still cared for.

Cheers,
Peter
Which front end? Very front or wheels?
I think I found that at the very front I had to cut back the footplate by a couple of mm as the buffer beam was too far back. I guess the differences in the valances lead to different outcomes. I think I ended up with the lifeguards butting the buffer beam but cannot really tell from the photos I have.
The driving wheels certainly formed an interference fit with the boiler and firebox so I had to cut into the boiler/firebox assembly. It all gets hidden by the splashers. As you say, in S7 might not be a problem. I think there was a little of the cab front to cut away as well to clear the flanges.
This is still a popular kit so I will have to think about investing in an etch redraw.
 

P A D

Western Thunderer
Which front end? Very front or wheels?
I think I found that at the very front I had to cut back the footplate by a couple of mm as the buffer beam was too far back. I guess the differences in the valances lead to different outcomes. I think I ended up with the lifeguards butting the buffer beam but cannot really tell from the photos I have.
The driving wheels certainly formed an interference fit with the boiler and firebox so I had to cut into the boiler/firebox assembly. It all gets hidden by the splashers. As you say, in S7 might not be a problem. I think there was a little of the cab front to cut away as well to clear the flanges.
This is still a popular kit so I will have to think about investing in an etch redraw.

Hi David,
Yes, I think it could do with one or two tweaks. I meant the overhang of the running plate that meant the front of the chassis and guard irons did not butt up to the buffer beam.

Tim, I agree that for a 4-4-0 it is an attractive prototype and more to my liking than the T3.

Onwards. Here's the boiler tube after adding the overlay for the smokebox.
20190927_194504.jpg

The front ring is integral with the front of smoke box saddle, with a separate piece for the rear and an additional overlay that includes the sides. To allow the saddle to be bolted to the running plate I knocked up a base from a spare Finney bogie etch plus extra layers from brass sheet to thicken ig up for drilling and tapping.
20190927_194420.jpg

Here it is with the boiler and second smokebox overlay. When the boiler is centered on the ring, the rear saddle plate is too short.
20190927_194353.jpg

However, with the boiler levelled on the running plate the saddle rear was too tall to slide in.
20190927_194138.jpg

After much head scratching it dawned on me that the top of the boiler was not level with the firebox top.
20190927_194308.jpg

Elongating the hole in the smokebox front allowed the boiler to be raised.
20190927_194224.jpg

The rear of the saddle still needed filling af the top edge to get it to fit. I removed the front/ring and cut 1mm off the bottom edge so that the ring centered on the smokebox with it level on the running plate. A screw through the running plate fixing nut allowed for levelling.

Here it is under the smokebox after drilling a hole to clear the nut.
20190927_194048.jpg

20190927_194018.jpg

I need to make some further checks before soldering the boiler to the firebox and smokebox saddle/ring but its looking good so far. The light was gone when I took the photos so the last images which were taken under a daylight bulb.
This final one is under tungsten lighting just for fun.20190927_194108.jpg

Cheers,
Peter
 

adrian

Flying Squad
That does look nice - the GCR locos do have some good flowing lines.
One of the advantages of S7 is that the wheels fit outside the firebox and you don’t need to make compromises for narrower than scale gauge. So much easier!
Quite - this is the reason I ended up going down the Scale7 route (not track appearance which many seem to focus on because IMHO Scale7 and O-MF are almost indistinguishable). Just having the wheels that bit further apart makes building loco sooo much easier - for example those leading drivers look awfully close to the boiler to me.
 

Genghis

Western Thunderer
That does look nice - the GCR locos do have some good flowing lines.

Just having the wheels that bit further apart makes building loco sooo much easier - for example those leading drivers look awfully close to the boiler to me.
I think Peter will find that he needs to take some metal out of the boiler otherwise you need to shape the splasher tops. Here is mine marked up prior to cutting.
post-13840-0-01874800-1433940013_thumb.jpg
 
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P A D

Western Thunderer
Hi Adrian,
Yes, the boiler will need some attention to clear the wheels and it will be easier to deal with it before its soldered to the firebox.
It's a good job there's no movement in the axles.
Cheers,
Peter
 

P A D

Western Thunderer
First of all, many thanks to Larry Goddard for scanning the LNER D11 drawing and sending it to me. I printed it off and had it reduced to 7mm scale at my local copy shop. Measurements taken from the drawing confirmed what I suspected, that the boiler was too long by 3 inches. Fortunately as it was still only screwed to the fire box, I was able to cut back the rear end by 3 scale inches. Here it is after the outer wrapper was added to the smokebox. It will be in original condition so no rivets needed to be punched.
20191001_221915.jpg

Before fitting the frame extensions to the running plate, I added some strips of waste fret either side, to assist in lining up the frames. Here are the frames in place along with the valve chest cover. Some small rivets have been used to represent the handles on the cover.
20191001_222043.jpg

And with the boiler in place. The smokebox door casting comes with a very deep flange at the rear, so to enable fitting either the flange needs filing back, or the inner disc needs cutting out. I chose the latter, but it's as broad as it's long.
20191001_221647.jpg

The frames are too long and need cutting back to clear the driving wheels and the the splashers.
20191001_221520.jpg

Next, the splashers.
20191001_222017.jpg

As with the frame extensions, I added some etch strips to the running plate to line up the splashers.
20191002_191017.jpg

After fitting the splashers, I added some waste fret at the front to aid filling the gaps. It was easier to use a long piece across the gap rather than trying to position single short lengths either side. The central portion is then cut out and filed back. Thanks to Nick Dunhill who did something similar in one of his builds with hand rail stantions either side of a cab opening, for the idea.
20191002_190919.jpg

Further checks of the drawing and photographic evidence showed that the boiler/firebox sit too low against the cab front, so I elongated the locating hole to raise things slightly.20191001_221949.jpg

Before altering. The firebox shoulders are clear of the lookout beading.20191001_221847.jpg

On the preserved example they butt up to the beading.
20191002_215414.jpg

And after alteration.20191001_221811.jpg

With the boiler raised, it no longer fouls the front driving wheels.20190927_194018.jpg

The splashers needed a great deal of filing to allow the firebox and boiler to sit down, but I got there in the end. A little more manipulation of the firebox sides will give a acceptably close gaps without soldering, so the boiler may be removed for painting and lining.
20191002_190548.jpg

It still need tidying up to remove witness marks here and there, and the firebox shoulders need more work before I solder the boiler to the firebox.
20191002_190818.jpg

Cheers,
Peter
 

Scale7JB

Western Thunderer
Looking great Peter.

Hopefully you might fancy a D16 to go with it..

One thing that really stands out is the depth of the window frames on the side and front cab sheets. Is it worth taking a file to reduce how far they stand out?

JB.
 

LarryG

Western Thunderer
Glad you have managed to sort things out Peter. As you most likely know, when the Class 11F Improved Directors were designed, Robinson raised the pitch of the boiler 1½ inches to 8ft 10½ inches. Maybe some amateur drawings were modified from Class 11E Directors and were given a side window cab etc without recognizing the higher boiler pitch. Just a thought.
 

P A D

Western Thunderer
Looking great Peter.

Hopefully you might fancy a D16 to go with it..

One thing that really stands out is the depth of the window frames on the side and front cab sheets. Is it worth taking a file to reduce how far they stand out?

JB.

The D11 is not mine and I'm not really a fan of GCR locos, so I don't see a D16 on the horizon. As to the window frames, looking at the photo of Butler Henderson, you have a point JB. I'll see what I can do.

Glad you have managed to sort things out Peter. As you most likely know, when the Class 11F Improved Directors were designed, Robinson raised the pitch of the boiler 1½ inches to 8ft 10½ inches. Maybe some amateur drawings were modified from Class 11E Directors and were given a side window cab etc without recognizing the higher boiler pitch. Just a thought.

I'm sure that is the cause of the problem. The instructions state that the kit will build all three variants, but is geared towards the D11. I'll compair the D10 cab front with the D11 and see if there is any difference in the height of the fire box mounting hole. It's a very old kit and could do with some tweaks to the echings if possible, but really that should have been done long ago at the test build stage. It's not a bad kit and I'm sure it will look the part when finished. It just needs extra work, but hey, "Are we not men? " as Devo used to say (and women in some cases sorry Heather). David Hill is aware of its short comings, but he has done very well to keep the range alive considering his day job is in Thailand. He has already replaced the firebox casting on the Dutchess and I'm sure he will improve other kits over time.
Thanks again for the drawing, it was a great help.

Cheers,
Peter
 
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