Gladiator 7mm GCR D11 4-4-0

Discussion in 'Area 51' started by P A D, 18 September 2019.

  1. Tim Watson

    Tim Watson Western Thunderer

    I wondered what the holes were for in the tender top, Peter! I will have to un-fill them to drain the water. I’ll take a look at that inspection cover on the reverser box: it is just discernible on Valour and I need to increase the curvature a bit so a few strokes of a file and a chisel should do it.

    I don’t know if the two types of fire iron support were contemporaneous with GC condition - the cruciform front end would hold the fire iron loops quite neatly. I have a 1937 picture of Valour with a more conventional U shaped bracket at the front rather than the +, albeit on a standard tender.

    Tim
     
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  2. Yorkshire Dave

    Yorkshire Dave Western Thunderer

    It may be one of those fittings which may have been modified when the loco went in for a major overhaul and some may have never been modified. It could also be an off-the-shelf rather than a Gorton product or vice versa.

    Although railway companies had their own works I suspect the majority of standard fittings and parts were bought in.
     
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  3. Martin Shaw

    Martin Shaw Western Thunderer

    Peter
    One small comment re the tender water valve handles, they look exactly the same as the the ones on the tender behind Morayshire, which is ex GC so I think they are likely originals. It also has the U shaped fire iron bracket so I suspect original Gorton. Once again a very nice looking model.
    Regards
    Martin
     
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  4. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Tim, Dave, Martin,
    Thanks for the comments.

    I did not spot it before until David Hill's last post, but this image of BH in GCR livery shows a U bracket.
    d11_butlerhenderson_1920.jpg

    This view of 510 in LNER days shows a U bracket.
    48166142412_ba9aaf6807_b.jpg

    This view of the LNER built 6385 shows a cruciform fire iron bracket, so I'm wondering if the one on BH is a later change or perhaps resulted from a tender change???
    d11_lord_glenallan.jpg

    As to the holes in the tender top I'm assuming they are drain holes. If they are, I have no idea if they drained into the tank or to the track via a pipe, as on Bulleid Pacific tenders.

    Cheers,
    Peter
     
    Last edited: 5 November 2019 at 22:20
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  5. Martin Shaw

    Martin Shaw Western Thunderer

    Peter
    Drain holes go throught the tank to the track.
    Martin
     
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  6. Tim Watson

    Tim Watson Western Thunderer

    I have had a chat with Tony Gee & his observation is that the ST tenders had the + and normal, a U. Look at the width difference between the tank sides & the raves to see the different types.

    I have made the inspection cover on the reverser box, although the photo doesn’t really show it very well. Firebox washout plugs also fitted, awaiting the mud hole covers.
    [​IMG]

    Tim
     
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  7. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Hi Tim,
    You need a better camera! :)

    Are you saying some ST tenders had the + type and some the U type?

    Please could you ask Tony if he can throw any light on the offset water filler/pick up set up. Convention would suggest things would be symmetrical about the centre line with the filler and the overflow to one side. The Gladiator kit is like that, but having seen the set up on Butler Henderson, like you I have gone with that. I just wondered if he knows if the BH set up is standard GCR?

    Cheers,
    Peter
     
  8. Tim Watson

    Tim Watson Western Thunderer

    ST tenders = +
    Normal tenders = U

    Tim
     
  9. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Understood Tim,

    Many thanks. The + bracket will be very fragile on your 2mm tender. So far I haven't managed to bend mine while handling the model, but sooner or later I'm expecting to turn the air blue!

    Cheers,
    Peter
     
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  10. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    With the tender just about done, it's back to the loco. The inspection hatch on the reverser cover has been added from brass shim and a rivet for the handle. 20191107_184600.jpg

    At the front, to represent the rod from the handrail to the gizmo on the smokebox, I turned down the end of the handrail in the lathe using a file. 20191106_183440.jpg

    And pushed all the way home.
    20191106_183506.jpg

    Some wire rod has been soldered to the roof to keep it in place.
    20191107_180755.jpg

    At the cab front the rod on the roof presses on the cab sides/front plate, but at the rear some tube had been soldered to the cab side for the rod to locate in.
    20191107_190644.jpg

    The cab handrails and beading have now been added.
    20191106_183329.jpg

    On the loco chassis the sand pipes have been made and fitted.
    20191107_184758.jpg

    Having identified what the item under the firebox is after the visit to Barrow Hill, I have now made the return spring on the brake gear along with the the mounting bracket and adjuster. I've replaced the rather wide flat pull rods with wire and made the safety hook. To accomodate these parts, a bottom plate was added to the ash pan, but I have still to add the damper rod and bracket to the left hand side.
    20191107_184626.jpg

    20191107_184718.jpg

    And from the side. I think it will look the part when the wheels are on and it's on the rails. I had a bit of an accident when fitting the ash pan bottom plate and melted part of the spring hanger which I will make good later. :rant:
    20191107_184837.jpg

    Cheers,
    Peter
     
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  11. Tim Watson

    Tim Watson Western Thunderer

    Really useful seeing your build Peter, as it allows me to see how some of the GC details ‘work’.
    I have made up the + fire iron support by silver soldering spring steel. I suspect it will draw blood before it finally succumbs to damage.
    [​IMG]

    Tim
     
  12. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Either that, or it will rip off the tender side. I'm trying to picture how small it must be.

    I've added further details to the tender and loco based on observations of Butler Henderson, but had to dash off before taking any photographs.

    Cheers,
    Peter
     
    Last edited: 9 November 2019 at 20:12
  13. Tim Watson

    Tim Watson Western Thunderer

    The + is well rooted through a discrete hole in the tender top, Peter.

    I know you shouldn’t copy models, but between us we might get it right?

    Tim
     
  14. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    So, some further additions to the tender. First a representation of the operating lever on the scoop and the support trusses.
    20191109_191652.jpg

    At the front on the left of the frame is what I assume is condensation trap in the steam pipe.
    20191109_191722.jpg

    At the other side is the brake pipe.
    20191109_191800.jpg

    Here are the oil pipes and fixing brackets before fixing to the top of the left hand splasher.
    20191109_191821.jpg

    And after fixing to the splasher.
    20191109_191551.jpg

    I didn't have any cast oil boxes so made some up from square brass bar, with the lid added from one of the spare boiler bands. Although on Butler Henderson they are bracketed off the smokebox, I believe originally they were were bracketed of the frames. That said, I found it easier to fit them to the smoke box. Visibly it makes no difference.
    20191109_191154.jpg

    The position of the oil box looks is correct, but it does not line up with what I believe were the fixings as they are too far to the rear.
    20191109_191021.jpg

    Here's a low angle view of the return spring on the rear brake pull rod.
    20191109_190901.jpg

    20191109_190520.jpg

    On the steam pipe a handle made from waste fret has been added to the spigot on the valve.
    20191109_185436.jpg

    There are still some cast oil pots to go on the frames either side of the smoke box, the feed water valve and pipe under the boiler and I still need to add the drain pipe to the ejector pipe, but that just about completes the external detailing.
    20191109_185334.jpg

    20191109_185400.jpg

    20191109_185530.jpg

    20191109_190547.jpg

    20191109_190759.jpg

    Next, the backhead and then pick ups, motor and some lead weight over the driving wheels to counter balance the heavy front end.
    Cheers,
    Peter
     
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  15. Tony West

    Tony West Western Thunderer

    A most enjoyable thread !. I haven't visited this forum for some time so am only now just catching up. One or two observations if I may....
    The 'gizmo' on the smoke box is/was a header discharge valve.
    The 'ring' of rivets on the smoke box door was an LNE feature. Some loco's gained these early on but as far as I'm aware not as built !.
    Fire iron brackets....yes +=ST and U= standard. I should mention here that only the last six 11F's built had the ST tender and then lost them to the Faringdons transferred to Kings cross in 1923, and so spent the next few years attached to 'standard' tenders...can be confusing !. I should also note that 506 BH was built with a standard type.
    There is a drawing of a ST tender in the appendices of Eddie Johnson's Loco's of the GC vol 2.
    Hope some of this helps.
    Tony.
     
    Last edited: 10 November 2019 at 00:12
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  16. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Hi Tony,
    Glad you have enjoyed the thread and many thanks for the comments which are most helpful.

    Zeebrugge was one of the last six so began life with a ST tender. Good to have further confirmation on the + vs U fire iron hooks. The smokebox front is detachable so it will be easy to remove the rivets. I'm not sure if this is mentioned in the instructions and I missed it, but having looked again at period photos, I certainly missed it in the images.

    As to the header discharge valve, this is identified in the instructions, but I could not remember its name and didn't have the instructions to hand.

    Do you know if the water filler/pick up arrangement to the rear of the bunker as on BH is original, with the small offset box in front of the large one, with the medium box to the right of the other two?
    20191102_104047.jpg
    20191102_104112.jpg

    To start with I went with the kit set up and then after seeing the set up on BH, decided to copy that. However, I'm still not sure which is correct.

    Cheers,
    Pete
     
    Last edited: 10 November 2019 at 11:41
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  17. Tony West

    Tony West Western Thunderer

    DSCF7252.JPG DSCF7252.JPG DSCF7253.JPG DSCF7254.JPG DSCF7255.JPG DSCF7256.JPG Looks like you have the tender top about right !!. Just noticed.....on your tender the 'running plate' at the front of the tender widens out , this was a feature of 'standard' tenders attached to locos with wider cabs such as Directors, Sir Sams, Glenalmonds etc. Your last photo of BH and the drawing both confirm a straight edge on a ST tender ...sorry !!.
    Cheers, Tony.
     
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  18. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Hi Tony,
    No need to apologise. Thanks for the drawings and pointing out the running plate error. I've re-read the instructions and it's my mistake,
    so tomorrow I'll consider if I can get out of jail. I have to admit, I have found this tender to be a bit of a mindfield, mostly of my own making.

    I see from the drawing that the footsteps on the buffers are the same as on BH, which I assumed should be thinner and offset towards the front. No clue where I got that idea from.

    Cheers,
    Peter
     
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