Dog Star
Western Thunderer
Where did that photo come from please?
Gladiator 7mm GCR 11F 4-4-0
- Thread starter P A D
- Start date
P A D
Western Thunderer
Warren, Larry, Brian,
Thanks for the input. I didn't doubt that there was a fall plate, just wasn't sure whether it was on the loco or tender footplate.
In the drawing that Larry posted, the fall plate is on the tender and you can see what looks like a hinge in the position of the bolt holes on the image I posted as mentioned by Brian. As far as I'm concerned, that confirms the shape and location of the fall plate so I'm happy with what I've done.
Cheers,
Peter
Thanks for the input. I didn't doubt that there was a fall plate, just wasn't sure whether it was on the loco or tender footplate.
In the drawing that Larry posted, the fall plate is on the tender and you can see what looks like a hinge in the position of the bolt holes on the image I posted as mentioned by Brian. As far as I'm concerned, that confirms the shape and location of the fall plate so I'm happy with what I've done.
Cheers,
Peter
Tim Watson
Western Thunderer
On the tender etches for Valour the fall plate is attached to the tender. Even if it wasn’t accurate to do so it would be on the model, as it helps to hang the weight of the tender on the back of the engine.
Tim
Tim
P A D
Western Thunderer
Thanks Larry.
Butler Henderson has a wooden base to the tender footplate, with 3 metal plates on top. The plate on the right hand side was missing as the wood base was well rotted and it never struck me to ask about the fall plate.
The chap who let me up into the cab was very helpful and I'm sure he would have found out about the fall plate if I'd asked. It's always the same when I go on these expeditions. When I get home I find there is some detail overlooked even with 200 images!
Cheers,
Pete
Butler Henderson has a wooden base to the tender footplate, with 3 metal plates on top. The plate on the right hand side was missing as the wood base was well rotted and it never struck me to ask about the fall plate.
The chap who let me up into the cab was very helpful and I'm sure he would have found out about the fall plate if I'd asked. It's always the same when I go on these expeditions. When I get home I find there is some detail overlooked even with 200 images!
Cheers,
Pete
P A D
Western Thunderer
So, back at the bench this afternoon, I have now completed the 11F build. As it will be painted in GCR livery, it's more appropriate to use the GC classification. Larry Goddard raised some doubts about the shape of the chimney earlier in the build, that until then I hadn't realised. 
It got me looking closer at the loco and the dome also did not look right. Following contact with David Hill at Gladiator, he offered to send me an alternative chimney and dome when he briefly returned to the UK from the far east. This is what he sent me. The dome looked pretty close to the prototype, but the chimney was too tall and the wrong profile. However, I felt I could fettle the chimney into something more acceptable than the one already fitted.
Here's the dome after tidying up and the chimney after modification. Not having a scale drawing to work with, the chimney is not 100% accurate, but in my opinion is far closer to the prototype than the one supplied with the kit. About 1mm was removed from the height by sawing it in two about half way down, then carefully rubbing down the parts on emery paper until I was satisfied with the height. The two halves were the lined up on a piece of dowel and joined with low melt solder. Using the dowel as an arbor, I reprofiled the chimney in the lathe using files, emery paper and scratch brush. Some of the work was done off the lathe by hand, mainly reducing the diameter of the base and chimney cap. The chimney has quite prominent fixings so I drilled the base ready to accept brass rivets after epoxying to the smokebox.
Once I was happy with the replacements, I set about removing the existing chimney and dome, which involved some butchery. Both had been epoxied in place, which some modellers have reservations about. Over the past 30 years I have epoxied dozens of chimneys, domes and other fittings to various model locos and none have ever come of due to handling or deterioration of the epoxy. Using epoxy gives time for adjustments and any excess is easy to remove if done when it is part cross linked. As to the physical robustness, here's what I had to do to get them off. First I made a cross cut with a junior hacksaw and in the case of the chimney, then gripped the segments with a pair of pliers one at a time and bent them outwards to break the glue joint. Here's the chimney with the first segment removed.
The dome, being a solid casting, needed a little more effort to remove. As well as a watch maker's vice (Burgeon copy), I have a swivelling multi angle Stanley vice. It's no good for precision work, but great for larger stuff. I used this with the soft jaw covers to hold the boiler whilest sawing the cross cut in the dome.
After making the cuts, I then drilled through the casting centre with a drill big enough to allow insertion of a pair of pliers and then gripped the segments as before and bent outwards to brake the glue joint. Worked a treat in both cases with no damage to the brass.
Here are the dome and chimney after fitting. After the chimney was cleaned up, I drilled through the pre drilled holes in the base into the smokebox and added the rivets with superglue. If you look closely, you can just discern the joint in the chimney.
So that's it completed and ready to go to Warren Haywood for painting and lining. I'm away from home tomorrow and Friday, so if you read this Warren, I'll give you a shout next week to arrange to bring it over.
Some gratuitous views to finish off.
Remember, a lot of the fittings including the smokebox front casting are loose to assist the painting and lining, so anything not quite straight in the photos, will be later on.
Thanks to all who have made helpful comments throughout the build and to David Hill at Gladiator for getting the missing items and replacement parts to me in double quick time.
Cheers,
Peter
It got me looking closer at the loco and the dome also did not look right. Following contact with David Hill at Gladiator, he offered to send me an alternative chimney and dome when he briefly returned to the UK from the far east. This is what he sent me. The dome looked pretty close to the prototype, but the chimney was too tall and the wrong profile. However, I felt I could fettle the chimney into something more acceptable than the one already fitted.
Here's the dome after tidying up and the chimney after modification. Not having a scale drawing to work with, the chimney is not 100% accurate, but in my opinion is far closer to the prototype than the one supplied with the kit. About 1mm was removed from the height by sawing it in two about half way down, then carefully rubbing down the parts on emery paper until I was satisfied with the height. The two halves were the lined up on a piece of dowel and joined with low melt solder. Using the dowel as an arbor, I reprofiled the chimney in the lathe using files, emery paper and scratch brush. Some of the work was done off the lathe by hand, mainly reducing the diameter of the base and chimney cap. The chimney has quite prominent fixings so I drilled the base ready to accept brass rivets after epoxying to the smokebox.
Once I was happy with the replacements, I set about removing the existing chimney and dome, which involved some butchery. Both had been epoxied in place, which some modellers have reservations about. Over the past 30 years I have epoxied dozens of chimneys, domes and other fittings to various model locos and none have ever come of due to handling or deterioration of the epoxy. Using epoxy gives time for adjustments and any excess is easy to remove if done when it is part cross linked. As to the physical robustness, here's what I had to do to get them off. First I made a cross cut with a junior hacksaw and in the case of the chimney, then gripped the segments with a pair of pliers one at a time and bent them outwards to break the glue joint. Here's the chimney with the first segment removed.
The dome, being a solid casting, needed a little more effort to remove. As well as a watch maker's vice (Burgeon copy), I have a swivelling multi angle Stanley vice. It's no good for precision work, but great for larger stuff. I used this with the soft jaw covers to hold the boiler whilest sawing the cross cut in the dome.
After making the cuts, I then drilled through the casting centre with a drill big enough to allow insertion of a pair of pliers and then gripped the segments as before and bent outwards to brake the glue joint. Worked a treat in both cases with no damage to the brass.
Here are the dome and chimney after fitting. After the chimney was cleaned up, I drilled through the pre drilled holes in the base into the smokebox and added the rivets with superglue. If you look closely, you can just discern the joint in the chimney.
So that's it completed and ready to go to Warren Haywood for painting and lining. I'm away from home tomorrow and Friday, so if you read this Warren, I'll give you a shout next week to arrange to bring it over.
Some gratuitous views to finish off.
Remember, a lot of the fittings including the smokebox front casting are loose to assist the painting and lining, so anything not quite straight in the photos, will be later on.
Thanks to all who have made helpful comments throughout the build and to David Hill at Gladiator for getting the missing items and replacement parts to me in double quick time.
Cheers,
Peter
simond
Western Thunderer
Another lovely job, Peter.
As an alternative to sawcuts and pliers, a quick blat with the blowlamp, not quite enough to melt the whitemetal, but hot enough to hurt, would almost certainly weaken the epoxy enough for the bits to be removed with a sharp tap from a handy bit of wood.
Atb
Simon
As an alternative to sawcuts and pliers, a quick blat with the blowlamp, not quite enough to melt the whitemetal, but hot enough to hurt, would almost certainly weaken the epoxy enough for the bits to be removed with a sharp tap from a handy bit of wood.
Atb
Simon
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
I'm very happy with Devcon, both the 5 minute and 2 ton versions. In fact I buy in the 250 ml pack as I find this less expensive over time than the smaller packs. Additionally those smaller packs seem to go off quicker.
I'll be interested in other views as well!
Brian
I'll be interested in other views as well!
Brian
Tim Watson
Western Thunderer
The boiler fittings look much better, Pete. The GC domes are quite malnourished in the flare department aren’t they?
Tim
Tim
P A D
Western Thunderer
Hi Martyn,
For the past 3 or 4 builds, I've been using this brand. I believe it's a 5 min epoxy but it's my brother's and I didn't see the package it came in (Yeah, I use all his stuff). Over the years I've used various 5 min brands and haven't noticed any difference between them. I've got some Bostic epoxy somewhere and my brother has recently bought some 5 min Devcon stuff as mentioned by Brian. I think they are all much of a muchness.
As to the small tubes going off, in my experience the ones where the resin and cross linker are in syringes side by side are prone to it, due I think to cross contamination from the dual fitting lid. These separate toothpaste type tubes seem fine, but others may have a different experience.
When I got back this afternoon from dropping my son a Gatwick, I gave the 11F a final test on the layout before packing it up. All was fine so I took a couple of final shots on the layout with the new chimney and dome.
Very red toned due to the tungsten lighting.
One final comment regarding the coupling rods. The half etch groove between the fluting is too narrow and as it is on both sides of the rods, I had a go at improving it with a file. However it looked
so I didn't bother with the other one. It may be possible to mill out the groove, but I don't have a mill or the skill to use one. The filing is on the inside of one of the rods so doesn't show, but I thought it was worth a try.
Cheers
Peter
For the past 3 or 4 builds, I've been using this brand. I believe it's a 5 min epoxy but it's my brother's and I didn't see the package it came in (Yeah, I use all his stuff). Over the years I've used various 5 min brands and haven't noticed any difference between them. I've got some Bostic epoxy somewhere and my brother has recently bought some 5 min Devcon stuff as mentioned by Brian. I think they are all much of a muchness.
As to the small tubes going off, in my experience the ones where the resin and cross linker are in syringes side by side are prone to it, due I think to cross contamination from the dual fitting lid. These separate toothpaste type tubes seem fine, but others may have a different experience.
When I got back this afternoon from dropping my son a Gatwick, I gave the 11F a final test on the layout before packing it up. All was fine so I took a couple of final shots on the layout with the new chimney and dome.
Very red toned due to the tungsten lighting.
One final comment regarding the coupling rods. The half etch groove between the fluting is too narrow and as it is on both sides of the rods, I had a go at improving it with a file. However it looked
so I didn't bother with the other one. It may be possible to mill out the groove, but I don't have a mill or the skill to use one. The filing is on the inside of one of the rods so doesn't show, but I thought it was worth a try.Cheers
Peter
3 LINK
Western Thunderer
Hi Peter, Brian,
The reason I asked about choice of epoxies was because of an experience I had with one of the Araldite versions, it did not seem to matter at what ratio you mixed it, it would go off rock hard as it " says on the tin " but it just would not adhere to the metal very well. I had prepared both surfaces, degreased and even keyed up the surfaces all to no avail. Maybe I was just unlucky and had brought one from a bad batch, so hence why I'm after a few recommendations first.
Martyn.
The reason I asked about choice of epoxies was because of an experience I had with one of the Araldite versions, it did not seem to matter at what ratio you mixed it, it would go off rock hard as it " says on the tin " but it just would not adhere to the metal very well. I had prepared both surfaces, degreased and even keyed up the surfaces all to no avail. Maybe I was just unlucky and had brought one from a bad batch, so hence why I'm after a few recommendations first.
Martyn.
P A D
Western Thunderer
Hi Martyn,
It sounds like a dodgy batch. Some resins if over cross linked can become harder, more brittle and less tacky.
I think I may have used Araldite in the past and if so it was without problems. I tend to buy whatever 5 min brand is on the shelf at the DIY place, or more recently, what my brother has to hand. Mix well as instructed, which is usually 1:1 and avoid any cross contamination. Come to think of it, before I started using the stuff above, I had some in the syringes, but one of the components thickened up and the plunger seized. I don't recall what brand it was, but I binned it and nicked my brother's instead.
Cheers,
Peter
It sounds like a dodgy batch. Some resins if over cross linked can become harder, more brittle and less tacky.
I think I may have used Araldite in the past and if so it was without problems. I tend to buy whatever 5 min brand is on the shelf at the DIY place, or more recently, what my brother has to hand. Mix well as instructed, which is usually 1:1 and avoid any cross contamination. Come to think of it, before I started using the stuff above, I had some in the syringes, but one of the components thickened up and the plunger seized. I don't recall what brand it was, but I binned it and nicked my brother's instead.
Cheers,
Peter
adrian
Flying Squad
An alternative recommendation from @Thirtysecond is this
An amazing adhesive
Easy to apply and very strong. It gives you 10-15 seconds of leeway whilst it sets, any excess that escapes the joint is easily removed as it's still soft.
warren haywood
Western Thunderer
Update on the painting, a couple more days will see it finished
