Gwr Ransome & Rapier 36t Crane In 7mm

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
If you have bought one of these kits... which were available at Telford this year...  have you got any instructions?

Thank you, Graham
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Anyone know what controls were provided for the driver?  As in...  how did the driver make the jib rise? slew?

There are two steam cylinders, one on each side of the crane platform.  I am assuming that the two cylinders drive opposite ends of the same cross-shaft - can anyone confirm this assumption?

thank you, Graham
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Steph Dale said:
Did you manage to get hold of some instructions or are you making it up as you go along?

We have received just instructions for construction of the original 4mm crane plus isometric drawings of the crab - there is no drawing showing location of parts on etches nor any contents list. The 7mm kit is different to the 4mm kit in the area of gears (more in the 7mm version), we have some problems as to which gear is which and what goes where. The jib truck and the weight truck are covered by isometric drawings and etch layout... no text.

What is really good about the BDCA web site is that there is, in the forum section, a drawing of the Turner boiler as fitted to GWR nos. 2 and 3 until circa 1917..... After some consideration we have decided to do no. 3 as that crane was allocated to SRD in the Edwardian period and ran with four / six wheel pilots vans whereas no.2 had a bogie mess and tool van.
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Graham,

I haven't either the kit or the instructions, but do have some info here on No.2 that might help. If you'd like to PM me...?

Steph
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
I ... do have some info here on No.2 that might help. If you'd like to PM me...?
Steph

Steph has provided a photo of the crank shaft and gearing of GWR No. 2... from the front of the crab... where the jib ought to be! Very helpful to understand which gears are involved in the various movements... and which gears are loose on the shaft / splined to the shaft.

Thank you, Graham
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Graham,

I picked up mine today from Sanspareil at Reading. I did wonder if the poor soul who arrived at the stand for instructions and wire while I was talking to Iain was your good self...? If not I can get a set of instructions to you - but it's over forty pages!

Incidentally, I may have got the instructions but I'm missing about half a dozen castings which will inevitably delay progress. I'm also wondering what to do with the pretty-much-surplus jib runner and weight wagon, although I understand from talking to Iain that these were in some way just modified standard PW vehicles. So maybe even selling them on won't be a problem.

Of course, there's probably some enterprising Thunderer who's been working on a model of the Stothert and Pitt GWR Crane No1 and really wants the wagons to run with it...:D

Steph
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
I picked up mine today from Sanspareil at Reading. I did wonder if the poor soul who arrived at the stand for instructions and wire while I was talking to Iain was you..?

I'm missing about half a dozen castings which will inevitably delay progress. I'm also wondering what to do with the pretty-much-surplus jib runner and weight wagon, although I understand from talking to Iain that these were in some way just modified standard PW vehicles.

Of course, there's probably some enterprising Thunderer who's been working on a model of the Stothert and Pitt GWR Crane No1 and really wants the wagons to run with it...:D

Steph

Not me mate... I was able to talk to Ian before the show opened so 10.00 saw me sitting in the cafe area whilst checking the gears from our kit against the photograph, in the instructions, of the gear castings with identification bubbles. My questions to Ian over the last few weeks had revealed that there is a gear missing from every kit, Ian had not made a pattern for the bevel which runs against the gear which transmits the travel motion through the base of the crab . I found that we had duplicates of some gears and that there are two versions of one gear (the original gear was too thick and the replacement gear - in the kit - is not mentioned in the instructions). Otherwise I believe that I have a full set of castings now... including the rail clamps.

The jib truck is almost unique, there were a couple of similar vehicles for other large cranes. As to the weight truck, I think that there were just two or maybe three of them, being for the counterbalance weights of the first three big cranes. An interesting observation about the kit, the GWR did not permit the cranes to travel to site with the counterbalances in place so the first act on site was for the crane to lift the weights from the weight truck and then the crane team would bolt the weights to the underside of the crab. After asking Ian about the model we have concluded that the kit represents the crane with the weights in place.... so no GWR models being hauled around then.

regards, Graham
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Graham,

Thankfully I'm not going to have to worry about the kentledge as the SR gained dispensation from the manufacturers and the Chief Engineer for the ex-LSWR cranes to run with them fitted. I think it was a wartime thing - as it made set up easier.

I hope to be starting my nice shiny new thread shortly. Where I shall be turning a not inconsiderable number of parts into two working DCC (and sound!) controlled cranes. But there's a shed load of scratchbuilding to get that going including a jib runner and three carriages.

It's also why I wasn't too bothered about the odd missing gear as I'll be getting the odd one or two functional ones in from other sources and can then shuffle them around. I'm more concerned about the missing sheave/pulley and rail clamps...

Steph
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
I hope to be starting my nice shiny new thread shortly. Where I shall be turning a not inconsiderable number of parts into two working DCC (and sound!) controlled cranes.
Like you we wish to make the crane operational and with DCC control - I expect that we shall encounter the same challenges so discussion is likely. The question is:- on forum and bore the pants off of everyone.... or via PM and only show the final results. At the moment I think that we shall try to fit three motors under the carriage, [1] for travel, [2] for slewing and [3] to drive the cankshaft through the vertical shaft although that may mean converting to a backdrive gearing from the prototypical worm and wheel. Current challenge is how to power the derrick and the winding drums.

It's also why I wasn't too bothered about the odd missing gear as I'll be getting the odd one or two functional ones in from other sources and can then shuffle them around. I'm more concerned about the missing sheave/pulley and rail clamps..
I just do not understand... having kicked up a fuss about the lack of rail clamps such that I received a set last Saturday I would have thought that clamps would have been included in all of the kits which were taken to the show. Please excuse what maybe a silly question... which sheave is missing and how did you discover that situation? (I ask because, as yet, I am not sure that we know how many sheaves are required for the several pulley blocks)

Any chance that you can help with my request for photos of the additional etches as per last message? I noticed a crane and tender on the B&B stall. Did you get that one?

regards, Graham
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Like you we have a desire to make the kit into an operational crane and with DCC control - I expect that we shall encounter the same problems challenges so discussion is likely. The question is:- on forum and bore the pants off of everyone.... or via PM and only show the final result to those who love blue and smelly diseasils. At the moment I think that we have decided to try to fit three motor under the carriage, [1] for travel, [2] for slewing and [3] to drive the cankshaft through the vertical shaft although that may mean converting to a backdrive gearing from the prototypical worm and wheel. Current challenge is how to power the derrick and the winding drums.

Hmm, I might be a little further ahead on that bit, thanks to experience of 00/H0/P4 modelmaking I'm used to frigging drives into small places. I was working on two motors in the carriage (slew/travel) and three in the crab (jib,winch,crankshaft). Decoder and relays in the carriage - speaker in the boiler.

I just do not understand... having kicked up a fuss about the lack of rail clamps such that I received a set last Saturday I would have thought that clamps would have been included in all of the kits which were taken to the show. Please excuse what maybe a silly question... which sheave is missing and how did you discover that situation? (I ask because, as yet, I am not sure that we know how many sheaves are required for the several pulley blocks)

Well, it's not exactly atypical for the vendor is it? I'll get him to send them to me. Ref the sheaves there should be thirteen; 4 slightly larger ones, 8 slightly smaller ones, and a one-off that's got a larger boss in the middle. The parts lists for the castings are distributed through the instructions on a fret-by-fret basis. Very clear for the instructions (which look remarkably handy), but less good for Iain's packing or our checking. I hasten to add it's not just Iain's kits I go though with a fine tooth comb when I get them home...!

Any chance that you can help with my request for photos of the additional etches as per last message?

I noticed a crane and tender on the B&B stall.... something like £150 for the kit. Did you get that one?
Sorry Graham I missed the reference :oops: and re-reading isn't helping me (past my bedtime!). But yes, of course I'd be happy to take pics - what do you want the pics of again?

Nope, I missed the crane and tender on the bring and buy. But thanks to a lucky purchase at Telford I have one of the DJB Cowans Sheldon 36ton crane kits - and very p!ssed-off father. Doing the two LSWR 36-tonners and their attendant vehicles will be enough for me!

Steph
 

adrian

Flying Squad
The question is:- on forum and bore the pants off of everyone.... or via PM and only show the final result to those who love blue and smelly diseasils.
If it's not too much hassle I'd vote for "on forum", being mechanically minded I'm curious to see how the project develops.
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
I was working on two motors in the carriage (slew/travel) and three in the crab (jib,winch,crankshaft).

So are we agreed that the crank shaft needs to be "free motion" and driven independently of all else?

"Any chance that you can help with my request for photos of the additional etches as per last message?"

I missed the reference :oops: and re-reading isn't helping me. But yes, of course I'd be happy to take pics - what do you want the pics of again?

I shall scan the parts of the instructions / illustrations which make reference to the extra pieces. Do you want a picture of the rail clamp sprue for when you ask for same? BTW, you ought to have a casting for the rotating drum on the jib-rest slide.... this is a one-off part and is part of a sprue that is cast four-times, the drum was cut off of three or the four sprues - scope for getting the sprue four times and no drum!

regards, Graham
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
If it's not too much hassle I'd vote for "on forum", being mechanically minded I'm curious to see how the project develops.

Well I'm happy to do so, Adrian. In my case, bearing in mind likely delays in getting hold of missing parts, I'll probably start with the jib runners and parts for the M&T vans, with the cranes themselves coming along later next year. There is some considerable work to do in deciding how everything will fit together before they hit the workbench. For example an hour this morning has allowed me to draft a suitable bearing/gearbox housing for the main slewing race. It'll need at least another hour to work out the practicalities of making it fit/work in both cranes. I'm intending to standardise the mechanism as much as possible between the two.

So are we agreed that the crank shaft needs to be "free motion" and driven independently of all else?

Yes, incidentally the builder of the motorised version of the DJB crane came to the same conclusion. So three of us coming to the same conclusion independently means we can't be too far off-beam. Can we....?
I thought that my rabblings might have been enough - no matter, I shall scan the parts of the instructions / illustrations which make reference to the extra pieces. Do you want a picture of the rail clamp sprue for when you ask for same? BTW, you ought to have a casting for the rotating drum on the jib-rest slide.... this is a one-off part and is part of a sprue that is cast four-times, the drum was cut off of three or the four sprues - scope for getting the sprue four times and no drum!

Yeah sorry, it was a long week last week and this week is set to be even longer, so if you can be a bit more specific it would help me hugely - I've quite a lot going on at the moment! I'd appreciate a view of the rail clamp; it'd be flipping typical for me to moan to Iain and then find out that the LSWR/SR ones were completely different. I haven't checked the parts for the companion vehicles as I'm only after the crane; the jib rest on the LSWR runner was just a timber baulk - it's one case where using the prototype material may be useful/necessary. Thankfully basswood strip/section isn't too difficult to get hold of these days.

Steph
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Here are photos of progress with the weight truck and jib rest - which are models of GWR prototypes.

First the weight truck, this is a four wheel wagon which carried the counter-balance weights which were bolted under the crane crab. I have written "carried" as I am not sure that this wagon has survived.

weight-truck-body.jpg


Second the jib rest, this is a bogie wagon which carries slings / ropes / chains / packing. In this case, "carries" is appropriate as the wagon continues to provide a rest for the jib of a preserved GWR R&R 36T crane.

jib-rest-body.jpg

These wagons are being built by Peter (my son) whilst I try to do the necessary research into the prototypes.

I understand that the crane and wagons were produced initially in 4mm scale, probably in the 1990s, and that the current kit is a photo-enlargement of the original. The 7mm etches have the appearance of a design that has been scaled-up for some of the fold-lines are wider than one might expect and the half-etch for the iron plate re-inforcements (on the solebars and body sheeting) appears to have rounded edges. The jib-rest body might have suffered from overwide fold-lines in that the upright edges for the sides / ends do not meet in the corners - Peter has inserted strip to fill the gaps. Forming the round corner of the stowage bins is not easy... a piece of 2mm brass round bar, soldered temporarily along the bend line, allowed the brass to be bent into shape. Our kit does not include the drop flaps at either end of the bins (flat plate and strip will do here) nor the re-inforcement platework under the jib rest (which has been added to the kit recently).

regards, Graham
 

lancer1027

Western Thunderer
Hi Graham, thanks for posting the pics.:thumbs:

I will be watching this thread with interest. It might help with my scratch building of my 45 ton Ransome & Rapier:thumbs:
The jib carrier has similarities although the 45 ton jib carrier is a 4 wheel wagon
R&R jib carrier (3).jpgR&R Jib carrier (4).jpg
 

B.4411

Member
As a newly-joined member of this forum I am watching the construction of these models with great interest. I have a more than a passing interest with the cranes concerned since I am the present owner of GWR 2 and therefore most of my work is currently being carried out in 12"/ft scale. (I actually have two sheaves and a load of other bits in my kitchen at the moment, and trust me in 12"/ft scale they are bigger and heavier than you expect)!

I am more than happy to answer any questions you may have regarding No 2, or any other breakdown cranes for thant matter, and supply any additional information, including, within reason, photos of bits of No 2 as it is today. As some of you will know, I have already supplied quite a lot of info to Steph.

As one of the founders of the BDCA, I would recommend its website as a resource well worth a visit, with plenty of useful historical and operational information. At present there is no comparable resource (and so much of the material presented on other websites and/or forums (fora??) regarding breakdown cranes is complete tripe - sadly many books also fall into the tripe category).

The question is:- on forum and bore the pants off of everyone.... or via PM and only show the final result to those who love blue and smelly diseasils.

You could always post in the Breakdown Crane Modelling section of the BDCA website!

Can someone who has bought the kit be kind enough to tell me whether it has a single "porthole" window on the rear sheet of the cab, or two symmetrical windows, please? Also, is there any provision in the kit for the window originally fitted in the LHS of the cab on No 2 crane only?

Thanks,

Roger
 
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