Simon Varnam
Active Member
It's OK if it spark the interest enough for them to graduate to more complex and better detailed kits, otherwise these are little more than plastic toys and this takes the fun out the hobby at this scale for me.
Heljan 7mm Wagons
- Thread starter tomstaf
- Start date
It's OK if it spark the interest enough for them to graduate to more complex and better detailed kits, otherwise these are little more than plastic toys and this takes the fun out the hobby at this scale for me.
40126
Western Thunderer
I was speaking to the owner & he said that he dont do them now, But if there was at least 3 interested, he would order some more. He has to order 20 at least.
Heljan are bringing a RTR one out soon at £55, so paying £15 more, is it worth it ?.
Steve
mickoo
Western Thunderer
I really do not subscribe to the EM, P4, 7mmFS, live steam 'ONLY' gauge 1, uber dogs danglies ultra detail all singing dancing what ever as the best there can be, and one which everyone should subscribe to and thus everything else is beneath and should be dismissed you train of thought.
Its simple, some peoples priorities are different from others and they should be respected for that.
I have many planned projects in many scales using many diverse materials and construction techniques that would make any 'serious' modeller cringe and recoil with horror, that's their problem, I'm happy in my own little world and surely the measure of success should be measured in the eyes of the builder/ owner.
I have to be honest and confess to the 'ouch' first reaction syndrome when looking at some models, such as some recently seen on Ebay or the other side, however I do also confess to my almost instant second thought being, 'who the hell are you to judge anyone', if they are happy then that's all that matters.
Sorry, just tired of this global trend for everyone to fit into the 'market' mould of what is acceptable, tired of being told what I should aspire to and how to achieve that.
Nothing personal, just a view I hold on the present climate and trends I see in model train circles and life in general.
Addendum, I watched this 'best is must' trend grow in flight sim circles until I left in disgust as the market and scene almost of imploded on its self, no one dare sell or produce middle market material as it is vociferously pulled apart by those 'that know' what we all want. The end result is a pile of uber models at high prices and a very very small market place. There should always be room for the middle man and even the lower man, it is those arenas that encourage and entice new blood. Top quality models are very nice and I like them as much as most, but sometimes people simply need to see something that they can aspire too, at what ever level their skill set is.
Its simple, some peoples priorities are different from others and they should be respected for that.
I have many planned projects in many scales using many diverse materials and construction techniques that would make any 'serious' modeller cringe and recoil with horror, that's their problem, I'm happy in my own little world and surely the measure of success should be measured in the eyes of the builder/ owner.
I have to be honest and confess to the 'ouch' first reaction syndrome when looking at some models, such as some recently seen on Ebay or the other side, however I do also confess to my almost instant second thought being, 'who the hell are you to judge anyone', if they are happy then that's all that matters.
Sorry, just tired of this global trend for everyone to fit into the 'market' mould of what is acceptable, tired of being told what I should aspire to and how to achieve that.
Nothing personal, just a view I hold on the present climate and trends I see in model train circles and life in general.
Addendum, I watched this 'best is must' trend grow in flight sim circles until I left in disgust as the market and scene almost of imploded on its self, no one dare sell or produce middle market material as it is vociferously pulled apart by those 'that know' what we all want. The end result is a pile of uber models at high prices and a very very small market place. There should always be room for the middle man and even the lower man, it is those arenas that encourage and entice new blood. Top quality models are very nice and I like them as much as most, but sometimes people simply need to see something that they can aspire too, at what ever level their skill set is.
Pennine MC
Western Thunderer
Interesting debate this has sparked, one that's 'bubbled under' before IIRC. I dont know how helpful my own 4mm-centric perspective is, but it might have some relevance in that I have a fairly well known specialism in freight stock and its realistic appearance in terms of livery/lettering nuances and weathering.
In this regard, I view the relentless spread of factory weathering with slight perturbation, in one sense because so much of it is simply crap and yet many folk think it's brilliant, in another because some of it is actually surprisingly good and could devalue the inherent differential in what I do. At the end of the day though, I dont lose any sleep over it and I still do what I do because I enjoy doing it; it's nice if somebody recognises it didnt come out of a box that way, but I'm not going to abandon what I do and look for a new approach just for some perceived greater kudos. I wouldnt rule out a new approach or a new field of endeavour for the sake of a fresh challenge, but that's a different thing.
All things being equal, we'd all admire a model more that had more creativity, more practical input than one with less, but not everybody in the audience either knows or cares enough to recognise that input. And admiring a model isnt necessarily synonymous with enjoying it - some specialisms, whilst perfectly valid in themselves, just dont catch the imagination as others do; witness the increasingly regular hand wringing elsewhere about signalling for instance....
Like Mick, none of this is meant to be personal or a slight on anyone who's posted above or elsewhere on this tack.
In this regard, I view the relentless spread of factory weathering with slight perturbation, in one sense because so much of it is simply crap and yet many folk think it's brilliant, in another because some of it is actually surprisingly good and could devalue the inherent differential in what I do. At the end of the day though, I dont lose any sleep over it and I still do what I do because I enjoy doing it; it's nice if somebody recognises it didnt come out of a box that way, but I'm not going to abandon what I do and look for a new approach just for some perceived greater kudos. I wouldnt rule out a new approach or a new field of endeavour for the sake of a fresh challenge, but that's a different thing.
All things being equal, we'd all admire a model more that had more creativity, more practical input than one with less, but not everybody in the audience either knows or cares enough to recognise that input. And admiring a model isnt necessarily synonymous with enjoying it - some specialisms, whilst perfectly valid in themselves, just dont catch the imagination as others do; witness the increasingly regular hand wringing elsewhere about signalling for instance....
Like Mick, none of this is meant to be personal or a slight on anyone who's posted above or elsewhere on this tack.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Ian,
You see, that's the sort of mature ideology that should be praised and held up as an example, I like what I do, I do it for my own ends, I have no issue with others doing their own thing.
Regarding the weathering, that's down to personal experience surely, if one were to know no different or not have the skill set to achieve a modicum of fidelity then factory weathering must surely be good?.
All,
Another phrase oft banded about with gay derision is 'shake the box models', one only has to look at the military side of modelling and see that the vast majority of show winners started out as a 'shake the box model', surely it's not the model that makes the modeller, but what the modeller does with it once it's in his hands?.
Interesting debate and probably not one to continue in this thread, hijack pirates ahoy LOL.
Kindest
You see, that's the sort of mature ideology that should be praised and held up as an example, I like what I do, I do it for my own ends, I have no issue with others doing their own thing.
Regarding the weathering, that's down to personal experience surely, if one were to know no different or not have the skill set to achieve a modicum of fidelity then factory weathering must surely be good?.
All,
Another phrase oft banded about with gay derision is 'shake the box models', one only has to look at the military side of modelling and see that the vast majority of show winners started out as a 'shake the box model', surely it's not the model that makes the modeller, but what the modeller does with it once it's in his hands?.
Interesting debate and probably not one to continue in this thread, hijack pirates ahoy LOL.
Kindest
S
SteveO
Guest
Agree totally what you just said there Mick. When you're judging modelling then it's the quality of the transformation, not the ingredients that count.
Not wishing to 'cross swords' with David again on this, but just putting my opinion.... As that's what some of us grew up with, and spent many happy hours improving - detailing & repainting, I for one am perfectly happy with that!!
Surely it's the same hobby.. just two different ways of approaching it? One may arguably be much better - maybe "purer" is the word, but the 'dumbed down' version at least allows some of us to enjoy the Senior Scale as well as the talented chaps.
The same could be said about 4mm, and the difference between the P4 approach and OO.
Jordan,
Nothing in my post above is really disagreeing with what you are saying. And to some posts below - certainly nowhere am I trying to tell people how they should model or derive their enjoyment from the hobby [if indeed enjoyment is their main goal].
We are told elsewhere in this thread that we should respect peoples' efforts at all levels [or words to that effect] and yet I see increasingly little respect from some quarters for those who are continually trying to drive standards upwards. Surely it has to be a two-way street. The fine-scale/S7 guys should not be marginalised in our quest for pluralism!
I do agree that exactly the same can be said about the P4/MRJ end of things in 4mm - but I think that too is a very different hobby to those who just run out of the box 4mm RTR. I just cannot agree that it is the same hobby - it is a world apart. Everybody seems to be bending over backwards to be all-inclusive these days - I recall reading an editorial in Modelrail a couple of years ago that said that weathering an RTR model was modelling. But is it really - I'll dodge that one!
Anyway on the basis that everyone is entitled to their point of view [as stated on here] - in my earlier post I was just expressing my point of view that Heljan may very well grossly simplify the UF on their Class B Tank wagon [as surely I am fully entitled to], just as they did with the areas of their Class 47 that I mentioned. You say you are perfectly happy with that. I say it offends my eyes [just as pop muzak offends my ears or the Sun or Daily Mirror offend my brain]. You have a right to your response but I too have right to mine.
Regards,
David Parkins
Pennine MC
Western Thunderer
Hehe, I dunno Mick, this is where my ideology starts to show a few cracks
I think possibly this is where the unfortunate notion of 'modelling a model' rather than modelling reality comes in - there are undoubtedly folk whose expectations are set by what's readily available, who will think that that's what real weathering looks like because that's what the RTR models look like. I have to admit I'm bemused by the number of people in the hobby who either dont look at photos of real trains, or can't meaningfully interpret what they see. But as you say, if they're happy with it, it's up to them - you can lead a horse to water and all that...
Perhaps a better word is tolerance. I've seen too many debates on 'the UK's foremost' ruined by a lack of that commodity, I hope it's not going to happen here. Speaking as someone whose standards are somewhere in that broad middle ground - arrived at over a period of self-development - there's certainly no lack of respect from me either way. I've been caught in the crossfire countless times in the toxic place - I agree there are too many who try to hold back standards, and I have my theories as to why. But holding back standards overall isnt the same as resisting having someone else's standards thrust upon you.
Again, these are general points, I'm not ascribing agendas to any individuals here.
Ah, no you wont
It requires creative input and artistry - in a similar way to scenery, and I dont think many would say that wasnt modelling.
28ten
Guv'nor
I must admit im with DJP on this. Whilst everything sits under the broad umbrella of 'Railway modelling' the chap buying a skaldale RTP station is a world away from me counting bricks on photos to make sure the bond is correct. Im not saying either approach is better, but im not sure it is the same hobby.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
David
I admire those that strive to be the best they can and to push the boundary's, apologies if my previous notes were taken to the contrary, however I do not agree with 'some' when they decry that what they do is the only acceptable way and take the morale high ground.
It takes great skill, learning and a certain gift or flair to become really good in modelling or in deed any human endeavour we wish to consider, but some, most, do not have those inherent tools and thus should not be looked upon as low achievers or the like.
Regarding tank wagons, I think Heljan are aiming for a totally different market than your good self, as Porsche are to Ford.
Like Ian I tend to the middle ground and have no axe to grind with any party, what ever their chosen level of fidelity, unless, they try to tell me I'm wrong
.
Kindest
I admire those that strive to be the best they can and to push the boundary's, apologies if my previous notes were taken to the contrary, however I do not agree with 'some' when they decry that what they do is the only acceptable way and take the morale high ground.
It takes great skill, learning and a certain gift or flair to become really good in modelling or in deed any human endeavour we wish to consider, but some, most, do not have those inherent tools and thus should not be looked upon as low achievers or the like.
Regarding tank wagons, I think Heljan are aiming for a totally different market than your good self, as Porsche are to Ford.
Like Ian I tend to the middle ground and have no axe to grind with any party, what ever their chosen level of fidelity, unless, they try to tell me I'm wrong
.Kindest
Pennine MC
Western Thunderer
Possibly this is heading towards semantics, but in conversation with non-modellers I try to stress the 'model making' aspect. Or maybe it's just as simplistic as saying 'model railways are not always railway modelling'?
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Ian,
Now there is a good point, the same scenario was played out to the nth degree in flight sim, mainly with what's called baked textures (in lay man terms artificial shadows rendered onto the model texture) if a model did not have this then it wasn't real, the tail was wagging the dog. The same as you note is appearing in train modelling, people expect to see what they want to see, even if it is not authentic, that sadly is being driven by the masses and large manufacturers are simply playing to their tune.
The only downside to RTR weathering is that if it is not to your liking there is nothing you can do about it, except a total respray, at least if it were left in factory finish you can add your own weathering. Then again that relies on people having the necessary skill sets to achieve that, and by virtue of RTR applying weathering it's easy to deduce that the majority of RTR users have not acquired the necessary skills to weather comfortably.
Kindest
Now there is a good point, the same scenario was played out to the nth degree in flight sim, mainly with what's called baked textures (in lay man terms artificial shadows rendered onto the model texture) if a model did not have this then it wasn't real, the tail was wagging the dog. The same as you note is appearing in train modelling, people expect to see what they want to see, even if it is not authentic, that sadly is being driven by the masses and large manufacturers are simply playing to their tune.
The only downside to RTR weathering is that if it is not to your liking there is nothing you can do about it, except a total respray, at least if it were left in factory finish you can add your own weathering. Then again that relies on people having the necessary skill sets to achieve that, and by virtue of RTR applying weathering it's easy to deduce that the majority of RTR users have not acquired the necessary skills to weather comfortably.
Kindest
Ah, no you wont
Yes I will - no comment!
BrushType4
Western Thunderer
Well, for me ten VAA's for £500 is a bargain and unless Heljan really muck them up, there is currently no other product available. Even the MIGO/Model Express version is no longer available.
I know that there are some great new detailed wagons in the pipeline from the likes of David P and Simon V, but they are not in the market just yet.
Heljan and maybe Dapol are doing a great job bringing new blood to the hobby. Of course you'll have some that are happy to stick with RTR, and others will want to detail RTR (DJP step in here please) and some will want fully detailed kits as MMP and possibly Simon V.
I hope that the current suppliers that supply pretty poor kits for £45 or more will step up there game and produce better offerings for the more decerning modellers and the RTR boys when they are confident enough to move up.
In any case the more RTR that becomes available, the better for the hobby.
Anyways, I'm waiting for Pugsley to produce his IZA twin set. I'm his first buyer.
I know that there are some great new detailed wagons in the pipeline from the likes of David P and Simon V, but they are not in the market just yet.
Heljan and maybe Dapol are doing a great job bringing new blood to the hobby. Of course you'll have some that are happy to stick with RTR, and others will want to detail RTR (DJP step in here please) and some will want fully detailed kits as MMP and possibly Simon V.
I hope that the current suppliers that supply pretty poor kits for £45 or more will step up there game and produce better offerings for the more decerning modellers and the RTR boys when they are confident enough to move up.
In any case the more RTR that becomes available, the better for the hobby.
Anyways, I'm waiting for Pugsley to produce his IZA twin set. I'm his first buyer.
28ten
Guv'nor
I see where you are coming from
Strangely if I say to someone I have just built a Matilda tank they say wow and get really interested, but if I say I have built a Mk1 coach they snigger. When I pressed someone on this they replied that trains are toys because you buy them in a box take them home and stick them on some track, but that you have to build a tank kit, ie do some modelling.I do find Military/Aero modelling and railways a totally different hobby, and not for the obvious reason, but because in military/aero the build is the thing and it is where the pleasure is derived, you dont do anything with the model afterwards.
S
SteveO
Guest
Even from a very small and varied selection of hobbyists (?) that frequent this site, you can see all sorts of personal standards, from the preference toward RTR to the serious and accomplished kit builder and scratch builder. I personally love that. I'm currently none of those and all of them. I simply don't know yet. I'm only 2 years into this hobby.
Personally, I'm starting out fairly low. I'm reasonably handy and not put off by a bit of work, so buying up others cast offs is good experience for me, for a fair price, and get some something moving fairly quickly. Equally, I'm not averse to detailing RTR or making something from scrap.
I can certainly see me retiring with a loft full of brass kits to build, though. With all the time in the world to build them, and to have a clearly defined agenda would be the impetus I would need to make a switch. Not that it wouldn't be without the odd RTR or scratch-built item either.
I suppose one has to look at the market to fully understand sales. I would say there are more people who don't have the time or skill to realise their railway ambitions than there have been previously. But that's just a guess.
Personally, I'm starting out fairly low. I'm reasonably handy and not put off by a bit of work, so buying up others cast offs is good experience for me, for a fair price, and get some something moving fairly quickly. Equally, I'm not averse to detailing RTR or making something from scrap.
I can certainly see me retiring with a loft full of brass kits to build, though. With all the time in the world to build them, and to have a clearly defined agenda would be the impetus I would need to make a switch. Not that it wouldn't be without the odd RTR or scratch-built item either.
I suppose one has to look at the market to fully understand sales. I would say there are more people who don't have the time or skill to realise their railway ambitions than there have been previously. But that's just a guess.
Pennine MC
Western Thunderer
Yep, and there are other aspects, one very obvious being the unrealistically prominent lighting now demanded by many. Another was the clamour a few years ago for 12 wheel drive on the Bachmann 37 (that would already pull a wall down with 8WD...)
Obviously that shows a lack of understanding (in that there are railway kits, just as (I believe?) there are RTP aircraft and AFVs, but presumably then it's the movement aspect (the 'playing') that attracts the amusement?
28ten
Guv'nor
There is no real equivalent of Hornby/Bachmann, where you buy stuff ready finished, although there are ranges like Forces of Valour. The focus of the 'average modeller' is buying and assembling a kit of a Challenger tank rather than buying a Bachmann 66, slopping a bit of muck on and running it. At the 'serious' end there is much less difference, where you are talking about kit/scratchbuilding, indeed it could be argued that there is more skill involved in assembling an etched kit than a Tamiya kit. When I have shown some AFV modellers an MMP GUV their jaw dropped at the detail and work involved, not to mention soldering