How to do the interior of 16T minerals?

Discussion in 'Techniques' started by Dog Star, 16 January 2018.

  1. Dog Star

    Dog Star Western Thunderer

    I blame Chris Klein for announcing the Minerva Pannier available in BR black...

    but not as much as Ian (@Ian Pope) who is responsible, single-handed, for moving our F0D colliery layout from the Edwardian era to the late 1950s - early 1960s. First there was BR Steam in Dean (Ben Ashworth photos, published by Lightmoor Press) as the thin end of the wedge...

    and then there was British Railways in Colour - Forest of Dean Lines as the thick end of that taper...

    and then Ian began to populate his Colliery Screens layout with Panniers in BR Black... and talked about a model of Speech House Road to show how the coal traffic was worked for the Wimberry Branch and Trafalgar Colliery... and then there was an influx of 16T minerals.

    After which we gave in, ordered some Minerva Panniers and started down the slippery slope by buying the odd one or two of Parkside's finest.

    OK, so the bodies are on the folding table... and the realisation dawned that the outside of the body might have been painted some shade of grey but what colour was the interior?. Was the interior grey? For how long? My guess is that by the late 1950s the interiors of 16T minerals were predominately rust - uniform or otherwise.

    So, what is the recommended way of representing a rust finish on raw, grey, plastic?

    thank you, Graham
    Last edited: 17 January 2018
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  2. Lyndhurstman

    Lyndhurstman Western Thunderer

    I'd say generally, yes. But the piccie here might lob a 9/16" whitworth into that mix....

    16T Steel Mineral wagon interior weathering - Weathering, Painting & Transfers


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  3. adrian

    adrian Flying Squad

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  4. Osgood

    Osgood Western Thunderer

    What I see in that picture is the result of 12 years exposure to corrosive coal - the dark charcoal coloure scaley rust is characteristic, and where it has flaked off you can see fresh orange rust. A screening plant I acquired looked the same.
    Similar dark rust effect on these older wagons (I'm guessing the wet surface makes it look darker and shinier):
    Wagons at Hafodrynys Colliery
    Last edited: 16 January 2018
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  5. Osgood

    Osgood Western Thunderer

    Try doing a search for ironstone tipplers - the internal upper half of these wagons especially ends and corners was pure brown rust coloured where nothing much had affected it (certainly not corrosive coal).
  6. Overseer

    Overseer Western Thunderer

    I am pretty sure the interiors were never painted, even when new. To match the usually fairly even rust colour I paint the interior a dark rust colour, say half 'rust' brown and half black, the apply a wash or two of black or lighter rust colours to achieve some variations. There are some glimpses on my MMP 16 ton thread and the steel 13 ton thread. The exact colours will depend on how recently the wagon was loaded and unloaded, if it has been sitting around for a while there will be some orange surface rust or if just emptied the surface will be darker. Wagons which have been through a tippler there may be more of a sheen from the coal abrading the surfaces as it is tipped out. The amount of variation between wagons would depend on whether they have been in the same rake or odds and ends, in a rake the interiors will all be in similar condition.
  7. S7BcSR

    S7BcSR Western Thunderer

    Recently came across a book (blowed if I can remember which now though I am pretty certain it was a book on BR wagons) that stated very clearly that the insides of steel wagons were not painted at all when new but were initially treated with a chemical to give some initial protection to the plate. After that they were left to "natural processes". The colour of the inside was the same as you would see steel in a steel stockholders yard which has not been primed. I would agree very much with Overseer's comments about the initial colour which accords with my mind's eye colours of a new mineral wagon in a Windcutter stopped in Loughborough Central station in the mid to late 50s which I, out of curiosity, had a good look at.

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  8. JimG

    JimG Western Thunderer

    I worked as a coal trimmer in the power house of the local distillery in my teens and my job was to help unloading mineral wagons of fine coal for the three chain grate boilers. It's fifty years ago and memory might be a bit hazy, but the interior surfaces I remember after end tipping a wagon on a hydraulic lift was a bright floor where the coal had slid down. The sides I remember as being dark - I can't remember the exact colour but probably as described by Overseer above. Wagons didn't hang around - basically they came in one day and went out the next, so would never really have got the length of bright rust on the floor. I suspect that bright rust would only appear near the end of the return journey to the colliery.

    One additional detail on any mineral which appeared at the distillery was a row of dents on the floor above the non-door end axle. This was caused by using a long rod resting on the axle to thump the floor to release fine coal that had stuck in the corners. :)

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  9. Dog Star

    Dog Star Western Thunderer

    So if not "orange-rust", then what colour and texture are we trying to represent for a steel mineral in regular use? By "regular" I mean that the wagon is being loaded, at a colliery, once or twice a week.

    The photo of wagons at Patricroft appear to be blue-black in colour, with the odd hint of fresh rust... without any flaking or scaling. Reasonable or what?

    thanks, Graham
  10. Rob Pulham

    Rob Pulham Western Thunderer

    Hi Graham,

    Not a BR example but still a steel mineral this is how I did one of the Parkside LNER hoppers



    Done with Vallejo Acrylics Dark Fleshtones for the rust colour and Blue Grey plus black for the weathering.

    Edited to add this was over a Vallejo Panzer grey primer followed by Medium Sea Grey as the main body colour.
  11. FiftyFourA

    FiftyFourA Western Thunderer

    I agree with Jim, most rust on the inside of a mineral wagon would have been rubbed/knocked off by the actions of coal being loaded/unloaded (as the paint would have been as well). The only rust in sight would be very new, bright orange, surface rust that appered while awaiting a loco to take the train of wagons back to pit or power station. And let's not forget, coal is corrosive.

    Judging by the inside of the MGR wagons I used to see at Blyth power station when I worked there 25 years ago the insides were dark blue/dark grey.

    Now, how about the inside f a wooden mineral wagon? Sorry Graham, am I going off topic here :eek:.

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  12. Dog Star

    Dog Star Western Thunderer

    No, maybe we can wait to see if another WTer writes about how they deal with the interior of rust-buckets.

    Adrian, ordered from the Upper Lambridge Emp. today.

    Rob, can you write about the order in which you have done the colours? I ask because your photo gives a good representation of what I see in the image referenced by Jan.
  13. Rob Pulham

    Rob Pulham Western Thunderer

    Hi Graham,

    After priming and topcoating I added the rust around the rivets/seams then I went over the panels with the blue grey/black mixture slightly overlapping on to the rust.

    On this particular wagon I then cut the blue grey back using meths on a cotton bud. I did find meths was quite a strong solvent for acrylics and it would work better diluted.

    I have of course since discovered that IPA does the same job for cutting back but not quite as aggressively as the neat meths.
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  14. FiftyFourA

    FiftyFourA Western Thunderer

    I don't know, how anyone could prefer IPA (India Pale Ale) over meths, 'hic' ;)

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  15. BrushType4

    BrushType4 Western Thunderer

    The road vehicles I used to see delivering bulk coal had shiny floors and sides to a tide line where it was coal in colour. Perhaps similar would have occurred on rail wagons?
  16. Rob R

    Rob R Western Thunderer

    Steel bodied or aluminium?

  17. BrushType4

    BrushType4 Western Thunderer

  18. Osgood

    Osgood Western Thunderer

    Biggest factor in coal / steel corrosion is moisture. Length of time the load stays in the wagon can determine moisture content - road trucks would sometimes keep a load on overnight, so build up of water would not be significant. Compare with a rail wagon which might possibly sit around loaded for several days? That's when corrosion really bites hard.

    You could always copy this iced-up wagon at Mountain Ash - liquid resin would work well :thumbs:
    16T Mineral MA.jpg
    Last edited: 19 January 2018
  19. Lyndhurstman

    Lyndhurstman Western Thunderer

    You'd think they already had enough water in Wales - without the need to ship it around by rail :))


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  20. BrushType4

    BrushType4 Western Thunderer

    I'm really surprised the wagons were waterproof enough to hold water.
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