Ian's Workshop, G&SWR 'Auld Bogie' in S7

Discussion in 'Workbenches, including workshop techniques.' started by Ian@StEnochs, 22 September 2019.

  1. Ian@StEnochs

    Ian@StEnochs Western Thunderer

    With the nights drawing in and the days getting colder it’s time to get my Winter modelling project under way. I always find that the months leading up to Christmas are my most productive. It may be the shorter days with less incentive to get outside or perhaps it’s just that it’s warm in my workshop!

    To the project, an ’Auld Bogie’ or G&SWR 191 class 4-4-0. I have had one of these locos on my build list for a long time. My wife got me the wheels for Christmas about 12 years ago. It doesn’t look like there is going to be a kit on the market soon so it will need to be another scratchbuild. If truth be told I am much happier making my own anyway.

    Firstly a bit of background history. Designed by James Stirling and built in 1873 at the Kilmarnock works of the Glasgow & South western Railway. These were the first 4-4-0s the Sou’West had and were quite big engines for the time. At the time of their building the Midland was constructing the Settle – Carlisle line over which would operate Glasgow – London expresses with the G&SWR handling the section North of Carlisle. Also the Glasgow Barrrhead and Kilmarnock line had just been finished, cutting the distance between Glasgow & Kilmarnock by 10 miles but at the expense of some very severe gradients. The engines as built have that distinctive ‘Stirling’ look as illustrated below.

    117 6 class as built.jpg

    My modelling period is 1900-1910 and by that time the engines were showing their age. Indeed 6 were withdrawn and the remaining 16 had been relegated to the duplicate ‘A’ list in 1897. However James Manson took the remainder in hand and did a modernising rebuild. The boilers were rebuilt internally but retaining the outer shell. The cab and chimney, of Manson pattern, gave a more modern look. However the old basic tenders were retained until some were replaced with 2nd hand ones from withdrawn Engines of Hugh Smellies design. This photo from a badly damaged original shows just what handsome locos they were.

    195 Rebuilt 6 class.jpg

    Here is another showing the opposite side but taken a bit later when the tool boxes had been moved from the tender rear and replaced with the water bag ‘stools’

    192 Rebuilt 6 class Kilmarnock.jpg

    To the model. I always like to work from a GA drawing. Working in S7 permits one to just lift a size straight from the drawing without having to make compromises for the narrower gauge of fine standard 0. However for this engine I only have the original, as built, GA. I do have a drawing by Willie Stewart showing the rebuilds. Careful checking gives me enough confidence to use Willies drawing along with the GA. Incidentally Willie Stewart drew many of the locomotives of all 5 of the Scottish companies which has been a tremendous resource for modellers.


    I have a basic set of specifications for all my locomotives. The locomotive should negotiate 6’6” curves, have all wheels sprung and if possible have inside motion. Current collection should be from as many wheels as possible and the loco should be able to pull a typical contemporary train.

    I like the Canon motor and gearbox combination sold by Slaters as its final gear is quite small and relatively easy to conceal within the cab. By tilting the motor forward it will fit in the boiler with the gearbox in the ashpan.


    It has been a wet day here so I have had a busy time cutting out some parts to make my own kit. Most of those shown in the picture below have been cut from nickel silver sheet, of various thicknesses with my trust piercing saw and a few blades! Where more than one piece is needed I solder sheets together and cut out together. For complex parts I have stuck copies of the drawing on with Uhu glue to save tedious marking out. It does take longer to saw but one can use a coarser blade and it is quicker than cutting each bit separately.


    The Tender frames were not made today but were left over from a previous build which used the same tender.

    Tomorrow I might just get the frames erected! I hope it stays wet, my wife is going out so there should be nothing to stop me.
    Last edited: 23 September 2019
  2. Yorkshire Dave

    Yorkshire Dave Western Thunderer

    Naturally a design Stirling used on the South Eastern Railway B, B1, F and F1 locos.
  3. Ian@StEnochs

    Ian@StEnochs Western Thunderer

    Yes You are correct. His design of 0-6-0 and 0-4-4 tank on the SER were developments of his G&SWR too.
  4. Yorkshire Dave

    Yorkshire Dave Western Thunderer

    For some unknown reason I was unaware the G&SWR had 0-4-4 tanks.
  5. Ian@StEnochs

    Ian@StEnochs Western Thunderer

    It didn’t have many tank engines at all but there was a class of 4 0-4-4tanks designed by Stirling and two small classes by Manson, one of which, the 266 class, were dock shunters.
  6. Overseer

    Overseer Western Thunderer

    Hi Ian
    It sounds interesting but I can't see the photos. It looks like they are hosted on the GOG website so anyone who is not a GOG member will not be able to see them. Would you be able to post them here as well please.
    3 LINK likes this.
  7. victorianman

    victorianman Western Thunderer

    Just to prove I'm a pedant, the immediate ancestor to Ian's loco was more likely the James Stirling 'A' class on the SER. These were the first 4-4-0 locos on that railway, and also Stirling's first loco for that railway. These are less well know than the 'F' and 'B' classes as they were all withdrawn by about 1909. But glad to hear someone has heard of the SER!
  8. Ian@StEnochs

    Ian@StEnochs Western Thunderer

    Hi Fraser,

    Sorry about that. I just copied and pasted from my posting on the GOG Forum and didn’t realise there would be a problem. I’m not sure what I need to do but I will try.


    PS I think I may have found the solution!
    Last edited: 23 September 2019
    Mike W and AJC like this.
  9. Ian@StEnochs

    Ian@StEnochs Western Thunderer

    To be more pedantic! I think you mean the SER ‘A’ class is the descendant not ancestor!
  10. John Duffy

    John Duffy Western Thunderer

    Degrees of pedantry! Love it.
    Ian@StEnochs likes this.
  11. victorianman

    victorianman Western Thunderer

    Yes, Ian. Senior moments are everywhere!
    Ian@StEnochs likes this.
  12. Overseer

    Overseer Western Thunderer

    Thanks Ian. Now I can enjoy some vicarious scratch building - unfortunately I'm not getting any time at present.
  13. Ian@StEnochs

    Ian@StEnochs Western Thunderer

    I didn’t get as much time in the workshop as I had hoped today, the afternoon was spent baking bread and making pickles, but I did have some workshop action before lunch and after dinner. So progress has been made.

    I had to prepare the frames to take the sprung axleboxes. On the rear axle, which is split, I am using Slaters insulated axleboxes which are plastic with bronze bearings. No guides are supplied so you have to make your own. Likewise for the brass bearings on the crank axle. I could just mill out some guides but instead I just fabricated some from 4x2 brass angle. I started with the crank axle ones and built up using a piece of 3/8” bar to get the correct gap. The rear one was built around the plastic box being quick with the iron, nothing melted! The spacing was fixed by the coupling rods using dummy axles with the ends turned down to crankpin size. The photo shows the frame from the inside, none of which will be visible on the finished model. The spring compensating beam is also shown. The springs sit on top of the axle box and are retained on the beam. Ride height can be adjusted by the screw in the centre once the engine is weighted. The holes in the frames are to take 10ba screws into turned spacers which set the frames at the correct distance apart while permanent frame spacers are soldered in. The holes will later be filled though the front ones will be used to hold the sandboxes.


    After dinner I got the frames fixed together and tried the wheels. The bogie, which I made a wee while ago, is just sitting there for effect. It’s a bit late so not so good for a picture.


    I am being ‘treated’ to the pictures tomorrow, Downton Abbey! So no progress on the loco expected.
  14. victorianman

    victorianman Western Thunderer

    Finney 7 do guides especially for the Slaters insulated axleboxes, though you may know this already and prefer to make your own for the more delicate frames of this type of early-ish prototype.
  15. Peter Cross

    Peter Cross Western Thunderer

    I like the way you pivot the side beams. I will plagiarise it for my next compensated build. Do you allow side play on the bogie or not? I normally allow about 1mm either way on 4 coupled with the bogie as the point of the triangle. Although I built the GW dukedog with a fixed bogie.
    Kerry Viney likes this.
  16. Ian@StEnochs

    Ian@StEnochs Western Thunderer

    Thanks for the info, I didn’t know that they did guides, I could have had a look on their stand at Telford. I have used the boxes on a few locos now and have always just fabricated guides, cheap and cheerful!
  17. Ian@StEnochs

    Ian@StEnochs Western Thunderer


    The original didn’t have any side play so I am just copying it. All the other 4-4-0s I have built incorporate sideplay with side control springs on a sliding centre but a couple of my 0-4-4tanks have centre pivoted bogies and work just as well! One thing I have found to be important is to make sure the bogie is a viable vehicle on its own. In my case I always spring or compensate each axle and add weight to keep the bogie down and hopefully steer the main frames rather than the frames steering the bogie.

  18. Ian@StEnochs

    Ian@StEnochs Western Thunderer

    I got a wee bit of time today so decided to get the buffer planks assembled.

    The prototype had a 6 inch wooden buffer plank with wrought iron plates both sides. In model form I have used a bit of box wood faced with a 10 thou nickel silver plate either side. The boxwood has been sourced from broken rulers with the wood sanded down to the correct thickness. On the original the iron is bolted through and the assembly is riveted to angle irons on the main frames. In model form I have used 1/32” snap head rivets which go through the sandwich and which will locate the planks in place on the frames after painting. The three elements are glued with epoxy. The buffers will be added later and will be from cast whitemetal bodies and turned steel rams.

    You will note that there is no slot for the coupling hook. On this loco the hook is sprung? with an Indian rubber pad. I will just fix the hook through the plank with a nut on the inside. G&SWR locos of this period did not have screw coupling links permanently fixed to the hook but carried loose screw links just hung over the hook.

    The whole assembly will be painted as a separate piece and will be fitted after the loco is painted.
  19. Tim Watson

    Tim Watson Western Thunderer

    Broken rulers in true Geoff Pember style!

  20. Scale7JB

    Scale7JB Western Thunderer

    Hi Ian,

    To make the laminated sandwich stronger, in the past I have soldered a bit of brass tube through the holes for the buffer housings. holds the inner and outer laminations together and gives more metal to solder the buffer housing to, if this helps.