Lathe thoughts and recommendations

Chris Veitch

Western Thunderer
I’m hankering after a new lathe and I’m interested in opinions and recommendations. I currently have an ancient Unimat 3 and a Chinese 7x12 which I bought new from one of the large machinery dealers a few years ago. The Unimat is a great lathe and I love it, but it turns 40 next week and is now rather worn. The Chinese lathe is big, heavy, poorly finished, and not particularly accurate. I’ve used it only a few times and while I realise they can be fettled into a decent machine this would take a lot of my time - it’s liable to be shipped out of the way into the garage shortly.

I do work in 2mm scale and 4mm NG, but also dabble in 7mm and 16mm scale NG so may want to work on reasonably large workpieces. I have a smallish home workshop and a lathe would need to fit into a space about 70cm long and 50cm deep. I think what I’m looking for is a decent machine between the size of my current two and if I ignore the sellers of badged Chinese products and look at well-known brands I find:
  • Schaublin - nice, but ludicrously expensive;
  • Wabeco - look good but a bit expensive, but the smaller machines have a round bar bed which doesn’t appear too robust;
  • Cowells - excellent, but only a single model which seems a bit small for some of what I want;
  • Proxxon - well made and accurate, but lots of aluminium which makes me doubt their durability.
Also, I understand the lathe currently badged as a “Unimat 4” is Chinese-built and the modern ones can be of very dubious quality. There’s also Taig/Peatol and Sherline but I’ve not looked at them in detail, and the US nature of Sherline makes me concerned about getting holds of spares and accessories easily.

So does anyone have any comments or recommendations on such a machine? Am I being unfair to any of the ranges mentioned above (given that none of it’s based on first-hand experience)?

Regards,

Chris
 

Nigel Cliffe

Western Thunderer
I've used a few of the above.

Schaublin - if you have the money, then they are absolutely superb. But, you can buy a nice brand new car for the price of one by the time its equipped with decent set of tooling.

Cowell - I've owned one for about 20 years, and a good one is excellent. There are technically two models - the model engineering model and the clock making model, for your use you probably want the more common model engineering version. Clearly a new one will be excellent, but the used offered for sale vary from superb to rusting wrecks. If buying used there are two different main spindles, with different pitch of nose thread, new spindles are available from Cowells in either form.
The machine is surprisingly powerful if you're prepared to take time on larger items, speed range is very large with the newer 2-speed plus 3-speed pulleys plus back-gear. Largest thing I've built on mine is a Stewart 10V vertical steam engine from a kit of castings, including facing cast iron parts. Some 16mm NG will be OK (I've got part way through a small 0-4-0 live steam chassis), some might be over the limit of what it can do, however if you still have the larger machine available, that can handle the big jobs.
Mine has a very large set of accessories, collected over the years. Most useful are a quick-change toolpost and an ER16 collet holder plus ER16 collets - I use them far more than the various chucks to hold material.
I find the Cowell to be a heavy lift, I can do it, but need to take care on any reach or twist in putting it into a cupboard. On the plus side, it will fit inside a standard single kitchen cabinet cupboard.


Proxxon - will you actually wear it out in your lifetime ? Depends if you're professional using it or a "once in a while" hobby user.

Sherline - if worred about the aluminium on Proxxon the same applies to Sherline.

Taig/Peatol - takes a while to piece together all the bits needed, but can be very capable and powerful small machine. My use of them is very brief, so hard to form a view.

Some of the Chinese sourced machines can be good if fettled into shape by someone who understands setup - last year I obtained a Chinese small mill/drill via Arc Eurotrade which was fettled by an expert before it came my way, and its hard to complain about it other than a slightly noisy motor drive. That has taken all the milling I previously did on the Cowell, its far far easier on the mill.


Away from what you've proposed, another thing to consider is the 8mm clock/watch lathe. Very useful for 2mm and smaller 4mm components. Numerous makers, plus the s/hand market. I know someone with a Chinese one which is superb, and a real bargain, plus others who have found and refurbished various European and American examples.
 

Chris Veitch

Western Thunderer
Many thanks for that Nigel, and it's certainly food for thought. I've always thought Cowells looked like a good choice - like you, I have a small Chinese mill which has proven useful and surprisingly accurate given my experience with the lathe so that would take care of vertical milling (a grateful nod to Mick Simpson for that recommendation.

I hadn't thought about a watchmaker's lathe - I'd have to work out how to use a lathe without a "proper" cross slide first...
 
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Nigel Cliffe

Western Thunderer
Watch maker's lathes and gravers are very useful things. Particularly for anything decorative, such as domes, smokebox doors, detailing parts. But even simple stuff like parting and facing are very quick. A half-way house to a graver is a free-hand turning tool, see the drawing of one in the Fonly articles on the 2mm website, and then make one to suit your current lathe (I have a metal based one and a plate to fit the cross-slide). With the centre correctly set it is very easy to turn free-hand curved shapes using one. Free-hand stuff is another reason I use ER16 collets: with a closure nut there is little chance of damage to fingers, whereas a 3-jaw or 4-jaw could easily break a finger (or worse) if hit when doing things close to a chuck, not to mention chances of hitting the jaws with a tool causing it to fly away uncontrollably.

I think Mick S recently bought a Cowell.

Nick Mitchell (who is rather good at 2mm modelling) does some good stuff with his watchmaker's lathe:
( This forum isn't putting a link to youtube correctly, so piece together from:
youtube.com/watch and v=l4u1OauT-u0
)
 

Martin Shaw

Western Thunderer
Chris

I was left a Cowells by a late friend, it is I suppose something like 30 years old, still very accurate and even though the motor start relay is gubbed it eventually runs sweetly, and I wouldn't part with it. Given that it has a small capacity and depth of cut is inevitably limited, for work in brass I much prefer it to my Chinese 7x16. The less said about that the better, it has required much work to even make it function satisfactorily, which is ongoing. I think that generally they are better than my one and indeed there are definite benefits in buying new and getting a warranty. Having said that Chinese lathe, certainly less than a grand, Cowells ME90 list price is currently £2700 and a six month wait, probably best not to ask about a Schaublin. Nigel obviously has a much greater experience than me, but I would agree with him that a Cowells is more than adequate if your pocket can stand it. Also like him I would by choice have a milling machine rather than mill on a lathe, personally I don't think the Cowells is anything like rigid enough, although obviously more skilled people than I seem to manage. There is in truth a lack of small lathes on the market other than the Chinese manufactured choices, I think Nigel has covered all the options. Good luck with it.
Regards
Martin
 

Brian McKenzie

Western Thunderer
Chris,
One recommendation: Although long out of production, a Lorch LLK would be worth latching on to - especially if one could be found in good nick. This is a 'plain' lathe, i.e. doesn't have a sliding saddle, but has long-travel cross and top slides of a quality not found on other small lathes. Many hobbyist lathes are let down in this regard offering relatively crude and coarse control of cutting tool movement.

Lorch LLV Precision Lathe for sale displays photos of this arrangement on an earlier Lorch LLV model.

Some years ago I lucked upon a Lorch A6-K with the full compliment of factory options. It's a larger and heavier unit than you are seeking, but has the same slides.

-Brian
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
Chris,

I would back up what Nigel has said about the Cowells. I machined some 1:32 scale wheels on mine last year and got on very well. I would normally have done the work on my ML10 but didn't want to venture out to the garage workshop. :) The work starts at this point in my thread of a year ago.

1/32 - A Loco for the Garden

A brand new Cowells with all the necessary bits is quite expensive these days but I've seen one or two very good second hand ones going for quite reasonable prices and they appear to be well kept. Also look out for Perris machines which were the predecessors of the Cowells ME90. I do remember a long bed Perris from the estate of an S Scale Society member appearing for sale at a society meeting with a suggested price of around £200. It was in excellent condition and had about every accessory you could want. There were no takers!! It was sold on Ebay for several times that asking price.

There are a couple of Cowells ME90 lathes on Ebay at the moment and another trade offering on a Google search with prices up to half of a new one.

Jim.
 

Chris Veitch

Western Thunderer
Thanks for all the quick and really helpful comments everyone.
Am I right in thinking that despite their similar size there’s little or no interchangeability of accessories between the Unimat and Cowells? Are their T-slot sizes different?
 

Nigel Cliffe

Western Thunderer
There is a difference, but quite a lot will fit perhaps by swapping the T-nuts, etc.. The Unimat T-nuts in my drawer are the same diameter/thread as Cowell, but the heads are considerably thicker. So, thinning those down and they'd probably fit the Cowell T-slots.

I think the new (for the last 20 years if not longer) Cowell nose thread should be the same as the Unimat thread.

With a bit of thought, the Unimat vertical drill/mill column could go onto the large plate at the rear of the Cowell. It might need a large block making to bolt to the Cowell, with a hole through and clamp screws to take the column. (The plate in mine has a few tapped holes in it added so I can bolt various things to it).
 
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Chris Veitch

Western Thunderer
Nick Mitchell (who is rather good at 2mm modelling) does some good stuff with his watchmaker's lathe:
( This forum isn't putting a link to youtube correctly, so piece together from:
youtube.com/watch and v=l4u1OauT-u0
)

Thanks, it's mesmerising - does this bit.ly link work any better?
 

Andrew

Active Member
Thanks, it's mesmerising - does this bit.ly link work any better?
Chris,

If I could add a bit more 'meat on the bone' so to speak. I have a Cowells 90ME and would happily echo the positive comments made by others. I have been pleasantly surprised by its capabilities. The later model, which as already mentioned, has a better range of speeds and is fitted with a 14x1mm spindle nose thread which is the same as the Unimat 3. I have a few of their accessories which work perfectly well. I obtained my Cowells from Malcolm Pickering at Pennyfarthing Tools Ltd, based near Wantage and I can recommend him as he seems to be able to source good quality machine tools at very reasonable prices. Have a look at his website. Usual disclaimer, no connection other than as a satisfied customer. My own experiences with EBay lead me to urge great caution!

Good luck.

Regards,

Andrew
 

victorianman

Western Thunderer
Hello.
Re the Cowells lathe,i wouldn't dispute all the the positives that have been expressed here, but I suspect that many of those now up for sale have the old 1 x 14.5mm thread, which makes sourcing missing accessories expensive and difficult. Unfortunately, my own experience with one of these older models was the disappointment of finding the collet attachment was less accurate than the three jaw chuck on the machine, which the current Cowells people conceded was a known problem on the earlier threads; perhaps I was just unlucky.
If you buy, be careful from whom, as it seems there can be a tendency for sellers to buy machines in, remove all attachments, then sell on the basic machine and charge a hefty price for the necessary extras, and with the 1 x 14.5mm thread, you have to pay the price unless you are lucky.
I now own a Proxxon 250e and have found it to be an excellent piece of kit, the fully variable speed being of particular use.
Hope this helps.
 

richard carr

Western Thunderer
Although I agree with all the comments on the Cowells lathe's, you should not ignore Sherline lathes. I have one of their milling machines and it is excellent and will do all the things I need for 7mm modelling, there is every imaginable accessory easily available. A friend has one of their lathes and the same comments apply especially with accessories both brand new and secondhand.

If you want to turn large cast iron wheels you need a bigger lathe, even a cowells will struggle.

Richard
 

Chris Veitch

Western Thunderer
Hello.
Re the Cowells lathe,i wouldn't dispute all the the positives that have been expressed here, but I suspect that many of those now up for sale have the old 1 x 14.5mm thread, which makes sourcing missing accessories expensive and difficult. Unfortunately, my own experience with one of these older models was the disappointment of finding the collet attachment was less accurate than the three jaw chuck on the machine, which the current Cowells people conceded was a known problem on the earlier threads; perhaps I was just unlucky.
If you buy, be careful from whom, as it seems there can be a tendency for sellers to buy machines in, remove all attachments, then sell on the basic machine and charge a hefty price for the necessary extras, and with the 1 x 14.5mm thread, you have to pay the price unless you are lucky.
I now own a Proxxon 250e and have found it to be an excellent piece of kit, the fully variable speed being of particular use.
Hope this helps.

Thanks for the advice - does anyone know a positive method of determining which spindle nose thread a machine has (without actually having access to it)? I've noticed that older 90MEs have a different cast base to the current model which has a machined surface table-like area to the back of the lathe - is this connected in any way to the change of specification of the machine?

As you say, I'd noticed that the traders seem to sell them as standalones with no extras and guessed that might be a trend. Undoubtedly a personal sale of a machine with accessories is the best route but they do seem to be fairly thin on the ground.
 

Chris Veitch

Western Thunderer
Although I agree with all the comments on the Cowells lathe's, you should not ignore Sherline lathes. I have one of their milling machines and it is excellent and will do all the things I need for 7mm modelling, there is every imaginable accessory easily available. A friend has one of their lathes and the same comments apply especially with accessories both brand new and secondhand.

If you want to turn large cast iron wheels you need a bigger lathe, even a cowells will struggle.

Richard

Thanks for that - are you in the UK, and if so is there a straightforward means of obtaining Sherlines and their accessories here?
 

Brian McKenzie

Western Thunderer
Sherline equipment offered in UK at:
Sherline Lathes - Millhill Supplies Ltd.

Assorted threads that may help - or confuse ;)

Sherline verses Cowells | Model Engineer
Sherline verses Cowells | Model Engineer
Dec 30, 2009 - 13 posts - ‎11 authors
about smaller type, the Sherline (US made) and Cowells (UK made) machines?
Beginners lathe
20 posts
18 Jan 2017
Precision mini/micro lathe?
20 posts
16 Oct 2016
Good Quality Small Lathe
20 posts
23 Jan 2015
Is anybody familiar with Sherline lathes ?
9 posts
14 Nov 2014
 

richard carr

Western Thunderer
Thanks for that - are you in the UK, and if so is there a straightforward means of obtaining Sherlines and their accessories here?


Chris

Yes I'm in the UK but Brian has already answered the questions. Mill Hill supplies have been the UK Sherline agent for over 20 years and although its a few years since I last used them they always gave good service before.

https://www.sherline.com/sherline-benchtop-precision-lathes/

Sherline's website gives details of everything they produce

Richard
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
I can vouch for Mill Hill and Sherline in recent history - about 18months ago I bought a chuck from them for my Emco lathe.

Very good service and a terrific product.

Steph
 

Nigel Cliffe

Western Thunderer
Thanks for the advice - does anyone know a positive method of determining which spindle nose thread a machine has (without actually having access to it)? I've noticed that older 90MEs have a different cast base to the current model which has a machined surface table-like area to the back of the lathe - is this connected in any way to the change of specification of the machine?

Don't know a positive difference on raw specification. Mine is old-spindle and has the machined area to the rear.
A good square photo of the headstock end, from above or side-on, and it should be possible to measure the thread pitch ratio to the outside diameter of the thread. If its about 1:9 to 1:10, then its the old 1.5mm pitch thread. If its nearer to 1:14/1:15 then its the newer 1.0mm pitch.

Some photo comparisons:

This, I think, is an old-thread model. Its a visually similar to mine, key features being the type of on/off/reverse switch, absence of gear table on hood, and it has a single-speed pulley on the first belt (from motor to lay-shaft).
Cowells Lathe 90ME -Very good condition For Clockmaker or Model Engineer | eBay

If it has a Pratt Burnerd 4-jaw, as seen in the right of photo of this rusting wreck, then I'd be confident its old-spindle. The same is probably true of a Pratt Burnerd 3-jaw as well.
Cowells Lathe | eBay


This might be a new-thread model, though its not "current new specification". Visual differences to the older model are: speed controls and a modern "stop" button, 12 speed table on hood, double pulley on first belt (visible in photos). But, compared to current new models, it lacks the zero-ing handwheels (incredibly useful things to have), and the Perspex chuck guard (required by regulations, but I'd consider taking it off as it restricts access).
Cowells ME90 Model Watchmakers Lathe Or Model Engineers | eBay

Zero-ing handwheels on current machine shown here
http://www.cowells.com/Gallery/Me11.jpg


If buying a machine with old screw thread and without, or negligible, chucks/faceplates for the spindle nose, then a replacement spindle from Cowell is the solution to the old-style thread.
If buying with fittings, then it's a decision between replacing chucks, or working with what you have. In my case I work with it, and when needing a new 3-jaw, I bought a Proxxon 3-jaw, removed the backplate (screws) and made a new backplate (on my Cowell), finishing the front face and the chuck register diameter with it screwed onto the spindle nose. That means my new backplate is precision made for my lathe, and the finished chuck runs true. It helps that I have a full set gear wheels for screw cutting, which might not be available to everyone. Alternatively, the thread could be tapped if a suitable tap is found (think I have one in the workshop, given to me with various tools last year. So if someone needs it, there may be ways I could help).

Zero-ing handwheels should be possible as a retro-fit (or work out how to add digital readouts - I have those with large display on all three axis on the Mill, and now wonder how I did without them!)

The double rear first belt pulley can be added to an older Cowell, though it requires increasing the slot width in the base casting to get the belt through, and some butchery of the plastic cover. Increasing the slot is probably the hardest job, unless you have access to a large milling machine. (Mine has that upgrade).


- Nigel
 
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