London Tilbury and Southend

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
I've been trawling through my Grandfather's photographs and these were taken when he was living at Leigh on Sea as a boy and commuted to Fenchurch Street to attend the City of London Boys School.

The photgraphs would have been taken around the 1914-1923 period

Two have been posted on this forum but I have re-posted them here to keep it under the relevant subject. Apologies for the poor quality as these have been scanned from contact prints and I've tried the best I can to clean them up a little.

Fenchurch Street
Fenchurch Street 01.jpg

The odd one out - Southend Victoria GER 4-4-0 1799 Southend Victoria.jpg

Shoeburyness LTSR 4-4-2T 2168 Shoeburyness.jpg

Southend on Sea MR 2-4-0 No.110.jpg

Southend on Sea Southend 01.jpg

Approach to Southend on Sea as identified by Col.Whitelegg MR Baltic.jpg

The next three are, I presume, constructors photographs my Grandfather acquired of the alterations at Fenchurch Street dated 4th February 1935. I've found these fascinating for the detail contained therein.

Fenchurch St rebuild 1.jpg
Fenchurch St rebuild 2.jpg
Fenchurch St rebuild 3.jpg
 

Eastsidepilot

Western Thunderer
Thanks for posting these Dave, excellent.
The GER loco at Southend Vic. is a D56 (later LNER D15). Built 1911.
Fenchurch St. has all ways intrigued me. If ever I had the space, and time :rolleyes:, this would be my choice of a city terminus layout in pre- grouping days, along with Goodmans yard.

Col.
 

simon.bolton

Active Member
Great photos Dave, thankyou. You get a lovely mix of locos on the LTSR! Is No. 1799 at Southend a Great Eastern loco?

Regards
Simon
 

warren haywood

Western Thunderer
Brilliant Dave
Love the MR 2-4-0 still pretty much as Johnson designed except the deeley smokebox door:thumbs:
Fancy a model of one of these, I belive Laurie Griffin does a kit for one
 

Eastsidepilot

Western Thunderer
.................................
Judging from my grandfather's photo earlier I presume Shoeburyness station was rebuilt/enlarged?

Having looked at your earlier Grandfathers photo I think it may be the goods yard at Southend judging by the houses in the background.
Shouburyness station still only has two platforms but quite a large emu carriage storage yard.

The loco yard is long gone with a small industrial estate built up to the station boundry, the area you can see behind the coaler is all housing now.

The floods were before my time but the first photo could be Benfleet with Canvey island in the background (backwater more like).
My Father remembers the flood's, being building contractors in Rayleigh they were called upon to do a lot of work back then.

Col.
 

Joe's Garage

Western Thunderer
The photo titled "Approach to Southend on Sea as identified by Col." is a lovely shot of one of the Baltics (?) They were a magnificent machine, shame that the Midland had taken over as they would have looked fantastic in the lined green?? There is a model of one somewhere I believe, York Museum?
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
Another two indifferent quality photographs from my Grandfather's collection taken by himself in the early 1920's. He would have been in his early teens when living at Leigh on Sea.

The first one is a Fenchurch St train from a fading contact print but I'm more intrigued by the van behind the engine. Although not clear it appears to be a bogie luggage or parcels van with diagonal outside bracing. Any ideas of the van type?

LTSR near Leigh 1920's.jpg

Again, another scan from a fading contact print with another type of van with windows behind the engine.

LTSR 1920's.jpg
 

Joe's Garage

Western Thunderer
These pictures provoked me to get my LTSR books out and have a look. The two main books in question are London, Tilbury and Southend Railway and its locomotives by R. J. Essery published by OPC and Locomotives and Rolling Stock of the London, Tilbury and Southend Railway by R. W. Rush published by the Oakwood Press. Very fascinating books and some beautiful pictures.


The very first picture at Fenchurch Street is of 2153 which is a class 37 originally No. 44 Great Prittlewell built in 1898 by Sharp Stewart and not withdrawn until June 1951. This class was rebuilt with wrap over cabs as per pictures between 1905 and 1911, this one being 1911/1914? Rush has two dates.


The two photos above with the vans are very interesting as the second possibly shows what is known as the Theatrical Van, Diagram 38, 8 built in 1911 originally numbered 6 t0 13. They were 34 feet long with a wheelbase of 21 feet. Originally designed to carry scenery etc. but also used as CCTs. I wonder what is in this one? Is there a theatrical company on its way to London or Southend or is it just for baggage etc.?


The first picture I am not sure, as the LTSR did not have bogie vans like this (?) As for the loco it looks like 2152 which would also make it a class 37 originally No 43 Great Ilford built in 1898 by Sharp Stewart and not withdrawn until April 1951. I think the loco in the second picture could be similar class. There is a lovely picture of No. 43 in original livery in Rush’s book.


Now back to the Baltics - it looks like 2102 (?) So is definitely pre 1929 as it was withdrawn 12/29 and still has MR on the buffer beam. I know you said the pictures were taken between 1914 and 1923. These were designed by the Locomotive superintendent, robbery Whitelegg, as the 87 Class and would have been numbered 87 to 94 making 8. They were approved by the Chairman of the LTS, A. L Stride in 1911 but were not delivered by Beyer, Peacock and Co. until 1912 after the Midland takeover so were painted in Crimson Red livery. The numbering for the engines were 2100 to 2107. It also appears that the loco has a Midland type smokebox door not the original so this makes the date a little later but both Essery and Rush do not give dates. Maybe early 1914 onwards.


Overall they were good engines but due to the controversy over the Midland takeover and the rights of running into Fenchurch Street the trains had and engine change at Barking for the District Electric locos. The Baltics were used on the Ealing Broadway to Southend expresses. Basically there were concerns on the axle loading of these machines. One advantage was that they did not need to be turned and I know of only two other railway companies that used the design. GSWR as Whitelegg went there and the Furness Railway. It is also stated in both books that some of the engines were quickly transferred to the coal trains between Wellingborough and Cricklewood and some working the St Pancras to Luton passenger trains. Interestingly the GSWR had burnished steel boilers again this must have been a fantastic sight.


Bob Esery confirms the model I referred to earlier is a 1” to the foot scale model of number 94 given the name of the “Arthur Lewis Stride” to the original design produced at Plaistow, the LTSR’s works. It is in the intended LTSR llivery and followed the tradition of naming all the locos. They were originally named after the stations on the system but I guess the Baltics would have been named after key personnel.


I have enjoyed looking at this again and thank you for posting these pictures. There is a lot on the LTSR in print and the books mentioned are worth seeking if interested in the line. There are others as well such as the Middleton series. It was and still is a very important passenger line with freight as secondary.
 

Ian@StEnochs

Western Thunderer
Now back to the Baltics - it looks like 2102 (?) So is definitely pre 1929 as it was withdrawn 12/29 and still has MR on the buffer beam. I know you said the pictures were taken between 1914 and 1923. These were designed by the Locomotive superintendent, robbery Whitelegg, as the 87 Class and would have been numbered 87 to 94 making 8. They were approved by the Chairman of the LTS, A. L Stride in 1911 but were not delivered by Beyer, Peacock and Co. until 1912 after the Midland takeover so were painted in Crimson Red livery. The numbering for the engines were 2100 to 2107. It also appears that the loco has a Midland type smokebox door not the original so this makes the date a little later but both Essery and Rush do not give dates. Maybe early 1914 onwards.


Overall they were good engines but due to the controversy over the Midland takeover and the rights of running into Fenchurch Street the trains had and engine change at Barking for the District Electric locos. The Baltics were used on the Ealing Broadway to Southend expresses. Basically there were concerns on the axle loading of these machines. One advantage was that they did not need to be turned and I know of only two other railway companies that used the design. GSWR as Whitelegg went there and the Furness Railway. It is also stated in both books that some of the engines were quickly transferred to the coal trains between Wellingborough and Cricklewood and some working the St Pancras to Luton passenger trains. Interestingly the GSWR had burnished steel boilers again this must have been a fantastic sight.
.


I have been watching this thread with interest. I have always had a liking for the 4-4-2Tanks but Whiteleggs Baltics were not a success either on the Tilbury or on the G&SWR. I agree that they looked impressive and were a publicity departments dream but mechanically they left a lot to be desired.
On the G&SWR the Baltics were built when the company was still striving to make up for the deprivations of the Great War and there was a backlog of maintenance which deprived the running department of many locomotives. Whitelegg set about rebuilding and reboilering many of the quite successful classes much to their detriment. He altered the valve motion such that live steam was admitted long before the piston reached dead centre with the result that the engine was throttled and became pretty ineffectual. While his running dept were struggling to get these rebuilds to perform he was busy designing the Baltics, which in 1922 cost £16000+, as replacements on the crack coast commuter trains. They certainly looked good and drew a lot of public attention but there were problems with bearings, water consumption and worse of all, instability at speed. The later was so bad that route availability was curtailed and the locos banned south of Girvan and even restricted south of Ayr. There are stories of Drivers coming to a stand white with fear as they had experienced their locos up on two wheels! On some of the curves south of Ayr.
There were plans to rebuild them as 4-6-6 tanks and then as tender locos. Only essential alterations were made and much of their work was done by LMS compounds and 2p 4-4-0s. Needless to say the LMS scrapped them when the boilers were done.
Whiteleggs administrations on the Manson and Smellie locos gave them a very short life, being outlived in many cases by their unrebuilt fellows, and this is one of the reasons so few of the G&SWR loco stock survived.

Ian.
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
Joe/Ian

Thanks for the further insight. I'm still trawling through my Grandfather's collection and there are some more LTS photos but these are contact prints and fading. I'll scan them the best I can.

On the subject of the Baltic tanks I know the LBSC also had problems with instability but they rebuilt theirs with well tanks and reduced the water capacity of the side tanks. All to be rebuilt as N15X after 1933 when the Brighton line was electrified.
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
The two photos above with the vans are very interesting as the second possibly shows what is known as the Theatrical Van, Diagram 38, 8 built in 1911 originally numbered 6 t0 13. They were 34 feet long with a wheelbase of 21 feet. Originally designed to carry scenery etc. but also used as CCTs. I wonder what is in this one? Is there a theatrical company on its way to London or Southend or is it just for baggage etc.?

It's interesting why there should be baggage vans on commuter trains unless they were also carrying holidaymakers luggage to Southend or just light goods and mail.
 

Joe's Garage

Western Thunderer
I can imagine the Baltics being a bit scary at speed as Bob Essery says in his book they were recorded at 94 mph!!! I forgot the Brighton line had some.

Also I like the thought of a theatrical company on its way to Southend for the summer season??
 

Jon Gwinnett

Western Thunderer
I'll leave that for someone more knowledgeable than me to comment on. The photo is taken from the Travelodge hotel, minories bar is about 100 yards to the right, and Tower Gateway DLR is built as I understand it, on the site of the old goods station. Goodmans Yard was approximately over my left shoulder I think, maybe a further 200 yards away.
 

Joe's Garage

Western Thunderer
I have had a look at the Middleton Press publication Fenchurch St to Barking, again a wealth of detail with an excellent range of photos. If you have the site of Goodmans Goods over your left shoulder then you are looking at the end of Fenchurch St. I presume the Minories Road is below you. Leman St will be a bit further down the line, but not very far. This station according to the maps was very close, I cannot tell as I do not have the distance maps such as Railway Clearing House.

There were 6 goods facilities around this area serving the LNWR, MR, GNR (opened by L&BR but leased to GNR), LTSR, 2 for the GER again formally the L&BR. Wish I could take a time travel trip to do a bit of trainspotting!!!

These books are very useful to trace the changes but so much has changed now.

Julian
 
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