Tim Watson
Western Thunderer
Or use split frame pick up, then no worries (there at least...).
Tim
Tim
P A D
Western Thunderer
Ps.
Somebody on RMweb made the same point about using insulating brake blocks and pointed me at this website.
Modelu – DESIGN SCAN PRINT
Also very interesting.
Cheers,
Peter
Somebody on RMweb made the same point about using insulating brake blocks and pointed me at this website.
Modelu – DESIGN SCAN PRINT
Also very interesting.
Cheers,
Peter
Heather Kay
Western Thunderer
I prefer insulated blocks if I can get them.
A real loco is a flexible beast. Wheels move up and down, brake blocks and rigging can move about. On the real thing this isn't a problem. With a scale model, relying on electrical contact between wheel and rail to provide power for a motor, any movement that risks things touching that shouldn't is a problem.
It's nice to be able to get brake shoes as close to a wheel tyre as possible, when possible. With a rigid chassis, this is possible. With a sprung or compensated chassis, the wheel will not only move up and down but it will also change angle in relation to the chassis frame and brake blocks. The risk of shorting occurs.
The solutions are keep brakes away from wheels as much possible, or make things electrically inert. I have done this by skinning the shoe face with epoxy resin or plastic sheet and plastic or printed hangers and shoes.
As with many things in our hobby, there's a measure of compromise involved. Everyone is free to do what they prefer, so while I advocate for insulated brake shoes I don't insist everyone should be forced to adopt them.
A real loco is a flexible beast. Wheels move up and down, brake blocks and rigging can move about. On the real thing this isn't a problem. With a scale model, relying on electrical contact between wheel and rail to provide power for a motor, any movement that risks things touching that shouldn't is a problem.
It's nice to be able to get brake shoes as close to a wheel tyre as possible, when possible. With a rigid chassis, this is possible. With a sprung or compensated chassis, the wheel will not only move up and down but it will also change angle in relation to the chassis frame and brake blocks. The risk of shorting occurs.
The solutions are keep brakes away from wheels as much possible, or make things electrically inert. I have done this by skinning the shoe face with epoxy resin or plastic sheet and plastic or printed hangers and shoes.
As with many things in our hobby, there's a measure of compromise involved. Everyone is free to do what they prefer, so while I advocate for insulated brake shoes I don't insist everyone should be forced to adopt them.
P A D
Western Thunderer
Hi Heather,
Absolutely.
We all skin our cats in our own way. I hope yours is not looking over your shoulder when you read this!
If I can't get it running without shorting, then your suggestion of a smear of epoxy may come into play. In which case I'll be back to eat the humble pie.
Cheers,
Peter
Absolutely.
We all skin our cats in our own way. I hope yours is not looking over your shoulder when you read this!
If I can't get it running without shorting, then your suggestion of a smear of epoxy may come into play. In which case I'll be back to eat the humble pie.
Cheers,
Peter
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P A D
Western Thunderer
Hi, a question for Mickoo or anyone else who knows the answer.
What is the difference between the 1936 built non corridor tenders and the earlier 1930 built variant? As far as I can tell the only discernable difference is that the earlier ones had beading along the upper tank sides, which ran down the front edge to the running plate, and the front edges turn in at the footplate.
So, if I want to expand on the possible prototypes I can model, is it just a matter of adding beading to the tank sides and turning in the front edges (plus any mods to the footplate to accommdate that) or am I missing something?
Many thanks.
Peter
What is the difference between the 1936 built non corridor tenders and the earlier 1930 built variant? As far as I can tell the only discernable difference is that the earlier ones had beading along the upper tank sides, which ran down the front edge to the running plate, and the front edges turn in at the footplate.
So, if I want to expand on the possible prototypes I can model, is it just a matter of adding beading to the tank sides and turning in the front edges (plus any mods to the footplate to accommdate that) or am I missing something?
Many thanks.
Peter
P A D
Western Thunderer
So, I've left the tender chassis for now and pressed on with the next subsection which is the tender frames.
Here they are fettled up. It's quite a complex shape with lots of edges to de cusp, but fortunately the cusp is very slight. The spacers are built in and it all folds up.
The next step is to punch the rivet detail. I don't have a rivet press so I use an automatic center punch with the tip re profiled with a grinding disc. The force of the punch can be adjusted with a screw on the end which release the spring.
Here's the left hand frame after punching. As can be seen it has distorted.
However, I then "counter punch" the rivets with a beading tool and small hammer which flattens the work piece. You simply place the business end of the beading tool over each rivet and give a light tap with the hammer. The beading tool can be seen at the top. It's a punch for cutting small discs from metal foil. The business end is concave and the rim is sharp. I have a whole set that I got from a Jewelry tool supplier and have blunted the ends of a couple for counter punching rivets.
This is the business and of the tool.
Next there are some tiny bracket to cut out, rivet in the centre and then solder in place over the center rivets in the group of 5 above. When fitting these, I placed them over the relevant rivets on the frame then tapped them with the beading tool to get them to sit flush over the rivet underneath. Needless to say, at @ 2mm X 1mm I did not attempt to de cusp. I just cut them out with a sharp blade to leave as little of the tab as possible. There is also a long strip to punch out the rivets, but in this case the counter punch doesn't work as well and the strip needs to be straightened by hand afterwards .
Here are the tiny brackets in place and one rivet strip applied. The tops of the support brackets for the tank are folded at 90 degrees. The bottom of the brackets is on the rivet strip (not yet folded). I was able to solder from the top edge to avoid getting the risk of soldering the folds and it's also easier to clean up. Yes I know, far too much solder on the middle cross member, needing the scraper before a quick rub with the fibre brush.
Here we are with the other rivet strip in place, the bracket folds all made and the infill pieces being added. The back edge of the piece with the tab showing was filed before fitting.
The instructions suggest folding the frames before fitting the etched strip, but I preferred to add the strip and make up the tank support brackets in the flat and fold afterwards. I couldn't use the hold and fold because of the tank supports, but my brother has some hefty folding bars, which could be fitted above the supports to make the folds.
The tightening bolt at one end was then removed to release the frames.
And placed on the chassis.
![20180130_132806[1].jpg](https://www.westernthunder.co.uk/data/attachments/83/83431-c7df548c3922c7586fd57da2febbe1df.jpg "20180130_132806[1].jpg")
I'm really impressed with the fit of the parts so far. The kit is certainly living up to my expectations and the reputation that they have.
Cheers,
Peter
Here they are fettled up. It's quite a complex shape with lots of edges to de cusp, but fortunately the cusp is very slight. The spacers are built in and it all folds up.
The next step is to punch the rivet detail. I don't have a rivet press so I use an automatic center punch with the tip re profiled with a grinding disc. The force of the punch can be adjusted with a screw on the end which release the spring.
Here's the left hand frame after punching. As can be seen it has distorted.
However, I then "counter punch" the rivets with a beading tool and small hammer which flattens the work piece. You simply place the business end of the beading tool over each rivet and give a light tap with the hammer. The beading tool can be seen at the top. It's a punch for cutting small discs from metal foil. The business end is concave and the rim is sharp. I have a whole set that I got from a Jewelry tool supplier and have blunted the ends of a couple for counter punching rivets.
This is the business and of the tool.
Next there are some tiny bracket to cut out, rivet in the centre and then solder in place over the center rivets in the group of 5 above. When fitting these, I placed them over the relevant rivets on the frame then tapped them with the beading tool to get them to sit flush over the rivet underneath. Needless to say, at @ 2mm X 1mm I did not attempt to de cusp. I just cut them out with a sharp blade to leave as little of the tab as possible. There is also a long strip to punch out the rivets, but in this case the counter punch doesn't work as well and the strip needs to be straightened by hand afterwards .
Here are the tiny brackets in place and one rivet strip applied. The tops of the support brackets for the tank are folded at 90 degrees. The bottom of the brackets is on the rivet strip (not yet folded). I was able to solder from the top edge to avoid getting the risk of soldering the folds and it's also easier to clean up. Yes I know, far too much solder on the middle cross member, needing the scraper before a quick rub with the fibre brush.
Here we are with the other rivet strip in place, the bracket folds all made and the infill pieces being added. The back edge of the piece with the tab showing was filed before fitting.
The instructions suggest folding the frames before fitting the etched strip, but I preferred to add the strip and make up the tank support brackets in the flat and fold afterwards. I couldn't use the hold and fold because of the tank supports, but my brother has some hefty folding bars, which could be fitted above the supports to make the folds.
The tightening bolt at one end was then removed to release the frames.
And placed on the chassis.
I'm really impressed with the fit of the parts so far. The kit is certainly living up to my expectations and the reputation that they have.
Cheers,
Peter
adrian
Flying Squad
Thanks for posting, your beading tool sharpens up the rivets nicely.
I was going to say your brackets look a bit wonky but then realised they were like that deliberately for the springs.
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
So I tried "jewellery beading tool" in Google and got pointed towards ebay... where I found "Glardon Vallorbe Jewelry Beading setting toolsets" from the US at around $20 per set. Just what the doctor has suggested...
So I then tried to find an UK supplier of the same thing - clearly the American product description does not hold water in the UK, all the Google and Ebay links are to tools and supplies for creating beads on threads. I think that UK may consider that the tool is used for setting grains of precious stones, just not sure.
Anyone able to find an UK source?
So I then tried to find an UK supplier of the same thing - clearly the American product description does not hold water in the UK, all the Google and Ebay links are to tools and supplies for creating beads on threads. I think that UK may consider that the tool is used for setting grains of precious stones, just not sure.
Anyone able to find an UK source?
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
So Cookson Gold has the items in stock with free postage until midnight Thursday.
Because the information is not given... the size 5 tool has a concave recess of 0.5mm, other sizes are, for example. 0.75mm (size 10), 1.00mm (size 15), 1.2mm (size 19).
There are two sets available from Cookson, one has 12 tools from size 5 to size 16, code 999AIR and one has 23 tools from size 0 to 22, code 9992355.
Sorry, I have yet to find details of the range of grain sizes in mm. Dave maybe? (@daifly)
Because the information is not given... the size 5 tool has a concave recess of 0.5mm, other sizes are, for example. 0.75mm (size 10), 1.00mm (size 15), 1.2mm (size 19).
There are two sets available from Cookson, one has 12 tools from size 5 to size 16, code 999AIR and one has 23 tools from size 0 to 22, code 9992355.
Sorry, I have yet to find details of the range of grain sizes in mm. Dave maybe? (@daifly)
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daifly
Western Thunderer
I changed 'beading' to 'bead' (to me a more logical description) and, as it was probably a jewellery-making tool, started with Cooksongold. Other suppliers are available.....etc.
Dave
P A D
Western Thunderer
Sorry guys. I have copyrighted their use for model railway purposes! Royalties gratefully accepted. 
Hi Dave,
The first one is what I have. I got mine years ago from A G Thomas in Bradford. I see they are called grain tools not beading tools - sorry for the confusion. I have also used them to make rivet heads by punching out domed discs from thin shim brass sheets. I got out of jail with the JLTRT 57XX after I had more or less completed the build and then realised there was a row of rivets missing from the cab side next to the door. They are not half etched in the kit and I did not realise they were missing or I could have punched them in the flat.
It's not easy to do and took several attempts to get the 10 I needed, and of course one or two pinged off into the carpet void! They are fixed with a tiny spot of super glue. Now I would use scale hardware rivets from Eileens.
So far they haven't come off.
Cheers,
Peter
Hi Dave,
The first one is what I have. I got mine years ago from A G Thomas in Bradford. I see they are called grain tools not beading tools - sorry for the confusion. I have also used them to make rivet heads by punching out domed discs from thin shim brass sheets. I got out of jail with the JLTRT 57XX after I had more or less completed the build and then realised there was a row of rivets missing from the cab side next to the door. They are not half etched in the kit and I did not realise they were missing or I could have punched them in the flat.
It's not easy to do and took several attempts to get the 10 I needed, and of course one or two pinged off into the carpet void! They are fixed with a tiny spot of super glue. Now I would use scale hardware rivets from Eileens.
So far they haven't come off.
Cheers,
Peter
adrian
Flying Squad
Never mind that - it's a set of tools that I didn't know I had!
When I bought my pendant drill it came with a wooden box (Cuban cigars of course!) with gravers, drills and burrs of various shapes and sizes. I've used the drills and gravers but just had a look in there and lo and behold find half a dozen of these grain tools!
P A D
Western Thunderer
With the interest shown here in these tools, I trust I haven't destroyed the market for the GW rivet tool! 
By the way, you need to blunt the rim of business end before using to counter punch rivets, otherwise you end up marking a ring around the rivet. Even blunted, you need to be careful how hard you tap it with he hammer. I've used it on tank sides which have bowed quite badly and removes the bend almost completely. The larger the part the better the result, and as I mentioned it doesn't work as well on narrow strips. It removes the bow created by the punch, but then bows the workpiece in the opposite direction. However, you can then turn it over and tap from the rear with the thr hammer only and the rivets face down on a cutting mat. That straightens the piece without damage to the rivets.
Happy "counter punching".
Cheers,
Peter
By the way, you need to blunt the rim of business end before using to counter punch rivets, otherwise you end up marking a ring around the rivet. Even blunted, you need to be careful how hard you tap it with he hammer. I've used it on tank sides which have bowed quite badly and removes the bend almost completely. The larger the part the better the result, and as I mentioned it doesn't work as well on narrow strips. It removes the bow created by the punch, but then bows the workpiece in the opposite direction. However, you can then turn it over and tap from the rear with the thr hammer only and the rivets face down on a cutting mat. That straightens the piece without damage to the rivets.
Happy "counter punching".
Cheers,
Peter
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
I ordered a set at 4pm yesterday and unpacked the parcel at 10.30am today. A delightful product, now need to practice.
BrushType4
Western Thunderer
Ok, a bit more explanation wouldn’t go a miss on how to use these tools as I feel like I need a set but not sure how to use?!