7mm Mickoo's Commercial Workbench

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Mick,

Captain cock up and crew are at my place presently, although I am about to kick them out ! Second Schools class frames etc completed to realise I've not fitted a crank and operating lever I made for it ! Tea break I think !

Ian
Aha! My directions worked! :D

I think it's more like beer 'o' clock :p

I think my issue is the cleaning I did after the first layer, and thereby lies a little yarn, word of caution to the unwary. After sanding down the top layer I cleaned it with IPA to remove any finger prints and oils etc, that made the surface glossy but slightly tacky, I thought nothing of it and added the next layer, in fact I cleaned the bare brass with IPA before the first layer too.

Fast forward a few hours and I was mixing up some more paint for some other sundry pieces, in went the paint, in went the etch activator and then what I thought was top grade thinners, nooooo, not to be, by mistake I added IPA, that did not go well. In short it congealed the paint into a big snot ball on the end of the stick and the resultant liquid left turned milky.

Now it maybe that the simple brush over in IPA has left some residue, technically I think it should not, but, it might be having an effect on the paint to leave a less than decent surface to paint on top of. As I said yesterday I'm not touching it until Friday, probably Saturday now; if it's still not as I think it should then I'll cut it back to brass and start again.

Other pieces I have done without cleaning in IPA are bullet proof, you cannot scratch the paint off with your finger nail and sanding leaves a nice smooth surface and feathered edge.
 
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Max M

Western Thunderer
So, here's where we're at end of play today.
For the second layer I spaced off the masking by a couple of mm to give a smoother feathered edge, once this layer has set....

When I want a 'soft' edge and to avoid a hard line where masked I have found that either rolling back the masking tape to form a rolled edge (more appropriate for larger jobs and strait lines) or a sausage of Blu Tac will give this. The bigger your sausage (am I allowed to say that? :oops:) the more fade you will get as will spraying across the sausage rather than up to it.
Acrylics and enamels don't react with the Blu Tac but as I haven't used it with cellulose or etch primer a test would be prudent.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Okay, brief update on the A2, despite promising to look at it tomorrow, it was quite clear that late today it wasn't right.

The paint is simply not hardening, I think it was getting softer, a gentle scrape with the finger nail confirmed it was just a layer of tar really, so off it all came and we're back to square one. I've checked my test pieces as well and although they seem hard, are in reality not as they should be, not as bad as the A2 mind.

I'm not sure yet where the issue lies, I suspect it might be the cleaning in IPA, but then it could be my mixtures of paint, thinners and activated etch, it could also be a bad batch of either of the three items or even as simple as the paint not stirred enough.

So more test pieces and Google sessions I think before we move on.

Anyway, whilst waiting for the paint to dry (literally) I've made a start on the next model, the JM LMS Bayer Garratt, this one is late BR days with rotary bunker and a couple of evenings finds the boiled and cab bed plate well on the way.

IMG_9137.jpg

It's certainly a model from an older era, robust would be an apt phrase, the boiler is a turned tube....brilliant, love it, perfectly round and no joint to mess with, the smoke box is a similar piece just slit along the bottom and wrapped over, it does leave a gap but there is a riveted cover and the saddle will hide any joints on the bottom anyway.

There are a couple of dead monkeys in the closet mind, all the castings are white metal and there's some pretty hefty ones as well, most are usable but sadly the cylinder blocks are not, it would take an age to clean them up and replace all the peripheral fittings, so, a quick lunch time whizz in CAD and we have the basis of a replacement 3D printed one.

At the moment I'm just looking for shape and sizing, not surface or detail quality and as such it's a quick test shot and solid to boot, solids tend not to fair well as 3D prints I've personally found.

IMG_9138.jpg

IMG_9141.jpg

IMG_9143.jpg

The original has no rear fixing flange plate so that was added as were a few other details. However the biggest issue with the originals was the very large flat outside face, much too large, even for the first three examples whose piston covers and clothing have large flat areas than the other engines, especially in later BR days.

As a first pass I'm happy with it, there's still the rear end fittings to sort, the white metal ones may be fit for purpose or some brass castings might need to be procured, I'll worry about that once I get to the frames and look at fitting these blocks.

Other off the cuff areas of concern, firebox base needs reworking, actually it'll be easier to make all new, it's quite exposed and has very large domed heads to the tie bolts visible as well as a large additional plate for the blow down valve fitting. The ash pan isn't too bad and parts may form the basis for the new more detailed one, I'll detail that when I get there.

Valve gear, a quick check reveals it's a big anemic and the slide bars are straight in the bin, it may be, and probably will be, quicker in the long run to draw up a new etch sheet.

There will be more I'm sure but I'm looking forward to the build and uplift here and there.
 

P A D

Western Thunderer
Hi Mick,
Looking forward to another superb build. Those JM cylinder blocks bring unhappy memories as the JM Fowler 2-6-4 was my second or third build a long time ago. I had no machine tools and no way of holding those chunks of metal to even consider trying to drill them with a Black and Decker. Just as well as the results would at best have been :shit:. Luckily, the chemical company I worked for had it's own fully equipped engineering workshop for maintenance of the production facility and one of the engineers very kindly drilled them outfor me on one of the vertical machines. The slidebars and crossheads had to be fabricated from etched parts as well, but with none of the aids to lining up that are the norm theses days or better still good quality cast NS ones. Something of a challenge for a third kit but the JM kits did build up nicely if you put the effort in. Your 1st print is already streets ahead of the kit ones.

Good luck with dragging the firebox back from the grave. You're a braver man than me to have taken a file to it at that late stage.

Cheers,
Peter
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
I like the flanges on the 3D cylinders. A detail seldom seen.

Good luck with the next attempt on that pesky firebox top!

Cheers

Richard
Check your W1 ;)

The firebox is mechanically good, it's just the paint and we're only dealing with a small area so it can be cut back and cut back until it's right. Even the over spray on the original paint work came off easily with no further, or little effect on that layer.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Hi Mick,
Looking forward to another superb build. Those JM cylinder blocks bring unhappy memories as the JM Fowler 2-6-4 was my second or third build a long time ago. I had no machine tools and no way of holding those chunks of metal to even consider trying to drill them with a Black and Decker. Just as well as the results would at best have been :shit:. Luckily, the chemical company I worked for had it's own fully equipped engineering workshop for maintenance of the production facility and one of the engineers very kindly drilled them outfor me on one of the vertical machines. The slidebars and crossheads had to be fabricated from etched parts as well, but with none of the aids to lining up that are the norm theses days or better still good quality cast NS ones. Something of a challenge for a third kit but the JM kits did build up nicely if you put the effort in. Your 1st print is already streets ahead of the kit ones.

Good luck with dragging the firebox back from the grave. You're a braver man than me to have taken a file to it at that late stage.

Cheers,
Peter
It'll be a challenge and the bits stuck together so far fitted and needed no work other than cusp removal.

I've also spotted the etched crossheads and I'll get some cast ones from somewhere and if there are cast slide bars available as well I'll grab some of them, though these look specific to this engine with their fluted sides. I might just be able to fatten these up to make them a little more substantial with some nickel etch strips, long way before we get there though.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Hi Mick.

My only previous experience of JM kits was a basket case Midland 3F I brought back from the dead. That was my second kit, when I had time but no money.:) It built up in to a really nice model, tube boiler included, but there are, of course, no cast cylinders to wrangle.

However, I also have a JM Garratt steadily rising up the stash and to be built for the same period as yours. (I remember them - just - as we had family friends at Borehamwood and my younger sister and I would be sent off to "watch the trains" - I think it was code for go and play with the traffic. We didn't see them very often but I remember then so well as something exceptional from the normal run of things.)

Please forgive the ramblings of an unsound mind.

In view of my intentions I wonder if you'd consider making an additional set of the extra bits you print/etch which I could use in place of the inferior items, for a suitable consideration, of course. If convenient PM me with your thoughts so we don't clog up your thread. I fully understand if this is not possible. In any event I'll watch the build with great interest.

Keep well andsafe.

Brian
 

Lancastrian

Western Thunderer
It'll be a challenge and the bits stuck together so far fitted and needed no work other than cusp removal.

I've also spotted the etched crossheads and I'll get some cast ones from somewhere and if there are cast slide bars available as well I'll grab some of them, though these look specific to this engine with their fluted sides. I might just be able to fatten these up to make them a little more substantial with some nickel etch strips, long way before we get there though.

The ex-LYR Dreadnoughts and the 4-6-4T's had fluted slidebars. I can't be 100% certain at the moment if any other LMS types had this style of slidebar, but I know I have seen it elsewhere.

Ian

Edit: LSWR H16 class, although not the correct style !
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Hi Mick.

My only previous experience of JM kits was a basket case Midland 3F I brought back from the dead. That was my second kit, when I had time but no money.:) It built up in to a really nice model, tube boiler included, but there are, of course, no cast cylinders to wrangle.

However, I also have a JM Garratt steadily rising up the stash and to be built for the same period as yours. (I remember them - just - as we had family friends at Borehamwood and my younger sister and I would be sent off to "watch the trains" - I think it was code for go and play with the traffic. We didn't see them very often but I remember then so well as something exceptional from the normal run of things.)

Please forgive the ramblings of an unsound mind.

In view of my intentions I wonder if you'd consider making an additional set of the extra bits you print/etch which I could use in place of the inferior items, for a suitable consideration, of course. If convenient PM me with your thoughts so we don't clog up your thread. I fully understand if this is not possible. In any event I'll watch the build with great interest.

Keep well andsafe.

Brian
Griff....Men in Black..."anything is possible"

The back head is also another candidate for a 3D print, I've no idea what the real thing looks like but I do know that the base is not waisted to fit inside the chassis frames :eek: it's not even the correct size or profile :rant:

IMG_9144.jpg

There may be drawings in the NRM but they're closed and may well stay so for some while, but....Beyer Peacock also built Garratts for overseas and the SAR GG class (solo loco) https://atom.drisa.co.za/collections/P_Collection_lo-res/P2266_01.jpg is as close as it gets, plus, I do have works drawings for that class and a quick look at the back head reveals it's near identical in size and shape.

GG backhead.jpg

There will be differences in some fittings but I suspect firebox opening and doors, gauge glasses, injector valves and washout plug locations will be near identical. There are many other similar items, the smoke box saddle (sans sand box) looks to be almost the same as do the pipe and injector runs.

I really really need to scratch this SAR Garratt itch........
 

Dave Holt

Western Thunderer
I'm looking forward to following this build although it's shaping up to be a bit of a challenge.
As I understand it, these locos ended up being rather disappointing, primarily because the LMS insisted that they incorporate as many standard LMS features (such as inadequate bearing sizes) as possible, rather than letting Beyer Peacock to just get on and use their normal Garratt designs.
As such, I would expect that the boiler backhead would be more like the contemporary LMS/ex-Midland larger locos (4Fs!) more than like typical Garratts.
This is just a thought and not based on any specific knowledge.
Good luck with the project.
Dave.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Dave, that's entirely possible, however, digging through drawings, both South African and UK it's clear to see that neither LMS, LNER or SAR used bespoke fittings, most appear to use common fittings sourced externally.

David & Metcalf injectors are certainly one and the Cravens combination Ejector is common to the B1 and many SAR North British built engines (the bulk is, SAR has some additional empennages).

In short, most South African engines built by Beyer Peacock and North British would of been built and shipped with UK contractor fittings.

These following drawings are from the SAR GG class, a single engine built in 1925 whose boiler, firebox and smokebox mimic the LMS Garratt closely, but not in detail.

Vacuum ejector valve, supplied by Vacuum Brake Co Ltd London

Image2.jpg

Sight glass supplied by Dewrange & Co Ltd London
Carriage heating valve and steam cock supplied by W.S.Weycock Ltd Sheffield

Image4.jpg

I've no proof yet that these items would of been fitted to the LMS Garratt and I suspect it'll be a combination of SAR Garratt fittings and common user LMS Crab, 4MT, Fowler Tank, Compound fittings.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Another small update.

Some references for those who may build one in the future, the fold lines for the cab front/sides and rear/sides need the half etch slots opened out, otherwise you won't get a neat 90° bend, it will also pay to deepen the area specifically next to the front spectacles, the cab front outboard of the spectacles is very thin and will bow out when you make the bend.

Later engines had riveted smokebox fronts, it's not included in the kit, you have to cut your own and punch the rivets.

The kit smokebox front is a turned plate of brass, it fits neatly inside the boiler tube with the smoke box outer on the outside, you will need a lot of heat, a hell of a lot of heat, forget the ERSA and the Proxxon mini torch only just coped. You may think the boiler tube big and strong, it also transmits heat very very well, the tail end by the firebox gets very hot after soldering the smoke box front on :eek:

You're supposed to then file the whole front flat, bugger that, chucked it up in the lathe and cleaned it off with the tool.

Next is the smoke box riveted wrapper, even more heat required to get that to stick to the growing mass that is the kettle, having done that then the smokebox saddle plate needs fixing, by this time your base material is near 3 mm thick, it takes a lot of heat.

The smoke box door is off centre toward the top, even so it does not clear the front deck, I cut a small slot to accept the door flange and slot for the lower lug, even so my door is still a little high, I think it's oversized if I'm honest. If you jack the front end up then the saddle sides will not fit and the boiler will tilt rearward, a new door and flange plate is probably called for in all honesty.

The firebox wrapper is half etched at the shoulders to ease forming the bends, sadly at the front and rear are strips full thickness so you're bend is never going to be even, I ground the whole slot half thickness from front to rear. You will get a kink when you form the bend between the full thickness and half thickness material, I flooded that step in the thickness with solder to strengthen that particular weak spot, it worked.....kind of, you still get a little kink but it can easily be filed smooth. I still have to radius the front corners/edges as yet.

The cab windows are hand drawn and are different sizes :D, the etch window surrounds are also hand drawn, probably with a crayon as the edges are just rough, they don't fit the windows anyway; new ones will go on an etch I have here for other customers odds and sods next week hopefully.

That about covers the last two days work.

IMG_9154.jpg

IMG_9151.jpg
 

Lancastrian

Western Thunderer
"Drawn with crayon...." Oh I do like that :))

Going back to Dave Holt's observations, it was actually the dead hand of Anderson who ruined what could have been an excellent addition to the running department. In fact George Hughes had quite advanced plans with Beyer-Peacock for a 2-6-2 + 2-6-2 Garratt type with Horwich style hornguides/bocks, long lap valve events and motion derived from the Crab's. However, on his retirement, Fowler took over, and although he also dealt with B-P directly, this is where changes started to occur. The big "but" though was the traffic department (Anderson) going behind Fowler's back and insisting on a Midland-ised design, and this is where all the inherent weaknesses came from.

It is a point of fact that information on water crane spacing between Toton and Brent was not given to B-P for the design to allow both front and rear tanks to be filled at the same time, or that as designed, the "rear" axle of the rear power unit came through the cab floor on the first run over the hump at Toton !

B-P even quoted the LMS to re-build the locomotives to be 2-6-2 + 2-6-2, along the lines of the ex-Hughes plans, with all the ex-LYR strengths, and re-positioning of the tank fillers, but this was declined. What could have been !

Ian
 

Phil O

Western Thunderer
Sounds like an oxy- acetylene torch would be more appropriate, with a no 1 or 2 nozzle, rather than a soldering iron.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
"Drawn with crayon...." Oh I do like that :))

Ian
Maybe a bit harsh :) but clearly drawn by hand with a pencil or blown up etches, pretty much everything else is nice and straight. A better way might actually be to do new overlays that already have the thin bead around the windows etched on. That way I could replicate the rivet and bolt detail better as the kit is a little generic, punch, punch, punch all one size straight lines affair.
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Moving on below decks the next 'large' object to make up/fabricate is the firebox base and ash pan.

The kit gives you two parts, the sides and floor and the front, there is no rear. The sides have a dog leg etch to allow you to fold the foundation (mud) ring and some generic rivet half etch dimples on the inside, the front has none.

IMG_9155.jpg

The floor is also solid and has two folds up brackets to support the pipes that run to the rear engine, we need these for later but note the overly generous etched space around them, this'll bit you on the bum later if you go for the more authentic set up.

The etches are basically both the lower firebox and ash pan in one and as such do not really do both justice, it's a compromise and it'll show in the end.

I'd already decided that my firebox base will be a 3D prints with nice big domed stay bolt heads and lapped plate work so it was a simple case to fold up the pan with out the dog leg step to replicate the mud ring, I also took the extensions fore and aft of the firebox base off as well, they wil just get in the way of the print.

The ash pan has a chamfered lower outer corner and looking at the etch above it's clear the outline is not going to produce a flat edge for the doors to close to. you basically need to trim back the flat edge between the two parallel etch lines and make it angled.

See red lines below.

IMG_9155-2.jpg

If you make it a straight cut as shown in green then you will end up with gaps between the pan sides/floor and doors at the point circled in green. The easiest way is to fold it up and trim in place whilst offering up a flat sheet of brass until you get the correct angles.

The front etch also includes the doors....sort of, they're just too short and you'll be left with a gap at the bottom I'm afraid. i'd already decide to have partially open damper doors so trimmed the front sheet back accordingly.

Okay, bit of a big jump picture wise to the completed unit, the shell anyway.

IMG_9157.jpg

The yarn here is to attach your shortened front face (after first tracing it for a new rear face) to the fold up sides and base and then the new rear face. Once you have the front and rear faces in place you need to fabricate the tunnel, it's not as simple as it looks as the front and rear edges slope backward to mimic the sides but with care they can be trimmed, test fitted, trimmed and finally fitted into place.

At this point the floor is still solid but we need to break out the pipe brackets as we'll use them later, I'm not sure if those are on the real engine, but they are important on the model as they support the pipework in a hidden way which supports all the visible pipework ahead of the ash pan.

A higher angle view shows where the pipe brackets were taken out and the large etch gap around them can be seen as holes in the floor alongside the tunnel base. It's those two long thin sausage shapes, mine are now covered...see later...but if not you'd see the blue cutting mat below.

IMG_9161.jpg

Having secured the tunnel it's time to flip it over and cut away the material down the middle, a slitting disc makes light work of it and then the pipe brackets were trimmed and dropped into the tunnel space.

IMG_9158.jpg

Forgive the salmon pink metal, left it in the Limelite too long, it cleans off though with a fibre brush. To cover the gaps left from the pipe brackets I simply added some 1.0 x 2.0 mm angle I'm not sure if the real engine has an external angle plate here, photos do show some sort of angled fixing, probably internal but it sort of looks external as well, it's a 50/50 call really. I've evoked rule#1 and as this is a late BR engine they have fitted two new external angles due to the originals rotting away; plus they cover the holes rather nicely.

The alternative would of been an all new scratch sides and base, easy to do as an etch but this way uses most of the original and provides a strong and square assembly, all be it with some extra leg work.

Whatever is there is cut back at the front and rear, the small gap is for a transverse strap that bridges across the front and rear edges of the ash pan base, these are brake rigging safety straps to prevent it dropping on the P' way in case of failure. The straps will be added later with the other details.

A quick check on the engine.

IMG_9160.jpg

I was going to bemoan the big fat F etched on the brake hanger, surely it would of been better on the upper face and thus hidden once the bracket is fitted, it does at least tell me which is the front, which is more than I can say for the ash pan as I've placed it on the frames back to front :eek: :D

The irony is not lost on me, but at least we can now see the new rear face from the clean side :cool:.

The next step is to make up from scrap etch the new mud ring and fit that to the ash pan core we now have, there are also large double row riveted strengthening plates that run front to rear on the cambered ash pan faces on BR engines, and, I need to work out some sort of fixing method, probably a few discreet 12BA screws somewhere; there are no guides or slots and tabs to fit the kit assembly so it's a trial by fire and alignment with the upper works really.
 

paulc

Western Thunderer
Hope......not an option....will is a better target to aim for ;)

I've got some Halfords filler primer but I'll not go near the model with a rattle can, I'll simply decant some into the airbrush and thin accordingly, but it's certainly a good option :thumbs:
Hi Mick , Tamiya do a filler primer in a small bottle that you apply with a brush . Its solvent based so the brush needs to be washed in thinners or alternatively it can be used as a hammer when dry
Cheers Paul
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Hi Mick , Tamiya do a filler primer in a small bottle that you apply with a brush . Its solvent based so the brush needs to be washed in thinners or alternatively it can be used as a hammer when dry
Cheers Paul
Paul, cheers, I'll look some of that up for future use :thumbs:

The A2 now has a decent flat base coat on and it's nearly time to (fend off Captain cock up) add the top coat and try to blend it all in.

It's a case of slowly slowly catchy monkey, couple of very light thin coats then a day or two to harden off before moving on.
 
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