7mm MOK BR Standard 4MT Tank

Discussion in 'Area 51' started by P A D, 14 May 2018.

  1. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Hi Peter,
    Yes the DJB kit was very good for it's time. All nickel silver etching very good white metal and nickel castings. Price wise if I remember corrctly, it was on the expensive side and I was only able to afford it on the back of a long service award from the company I worked for. It now belongs to my brother and he's getting pd off as I keep pointing out it's shortcomings. ;)

    If it was still around now, the MOK would be the better option. The DJB one is too wide at the fire box, too wide at the bunker which does not taper and the running plate at the smoke box is too low over the cylinders. There are no driving wheel springs and it has taken me until last week at the Doncaster show to get some castings from Ragstone. The cab interior is very detailed although the are no seats. The roof was soldered in place before painting and the back plate and floor are added from underneath and screwed in.

    I think running on a layout it would pass muster against the MOK version, unless srutinised closely when next to each other. The most stand out difference being the low running plate. If you spotted an untouched kit at a good price it would worth a punt.


    Hi Michael,
    If you've built a few etched kits, particularly with outside valve gear, these kits are not that difficult. When I looked at the parts in the box and opened the instructions the first time, it looked very daunting, even having over 30 years experience building etched kits. However, once you get started it is a lot easier than it looks and you start to realise why these and the Finney 7 kits are so expensive.

    If you get stuck, Dave Sharp at MOK is only a phone call away and he is extremely helpful. Also the advantage these day is that with forums like these, you can usually find a build by somebody else, which I always find useful. For the 4MT I have photos from 2 other builders that I can refer to, and also there are so many talented builders on here that you can always get help when needed. Even the professional builders and painters are willing to help and will always answer your questions.

    Cheers,
    Peter
     
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  2. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    I had a some free time this afternoon and managed to solder and clean up the outer parts of the tank skeleton.
    20180609_185401.jpg

    One thing I discovered it that by twisting the tabs further in the direction of the original twist, they tend to snap off closer to the root of the tab, compared to snipping them with side cutters, and are easier to dress back.

    Here's the other side. You can still see some of the witness marks from filing back the remains of the tabs, but as they will be covered with an overlay it's not important and the main thing is to ensure that they are all flush.
    20180609_185437.jpg

    Cheers,
    Peter
     
  3. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Next the cast bottom pieces for the tanks are added. Here they are trial fitted before soldering. The left side is in two parts and the right side is three.
    20180611_225536.jpg

    The gaps between the castings after fitting was quite large, so rather than just fill with solder, I added some strips of waste etch to help bridge the gaps.
    20180611_225436.jpg

    I filed away the excess etch before fitting the tank overlays..
    20180611_225357.jpg

    Here's the overlays ready for fitting.
    20180611_223045.jpg

    And after fitting and cleaned up.
    20180611_223146.jpg

    A view of the underside.
    20180611_223837.jpg

    And placed on the chassis with the firebox and boiler slotted in.
    20180611_224807.jpg

    More rubbing down and polishing is needed to get a smooth finish with no ridged.

    20180611_224859.jpg

    Starting to look like a Standard 4 tank loco now.

    Cheers,
    Peter
     
    Last edited: 12 June 2018
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  4. Martin Shaw

    Martin Shaw Western Thunderer

    Peter
    As a matter of interest I had a look at the cab rear sheet on 105, it has 15 ventilation holes of approx 1.5" dia. I couldn't get closer being unsuitably attired for clambering around dismantled engines.
    Regards
    Martin
     
  5. farnetti

    farnetti Western Thunderer

    Peter, I notice a couple of small gaps between the overlays and tank bottom castings also. I filled all of the gaps with some 2-part metal filler which worked fine as an alternative to solder.

    Ken
     
  6. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    I'd not seen those gaps - witness marks maybe, but no gaps. I agree with you so much about metal filler, though. Most of the "K" is made from it.:D

    Brian
     
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  7. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Hi Martin,
    Thanks for checking the vent holes.

    As Ken me mentions there were some small gaps here and there between the
    the overlays and tank bottom castings. I filled these with 70 degree solder, rubbed dowwn and polished.
    20180612_110749.jpg
    Some further rubbing with wet and dry may be needed but it's looking good so far. 20180612_110856.jpg

    Next it was time to fit the rear tank sides and cast tank bottoms and cast bunker sides. The tank side etching were a very good fit, with the half etch recesses mating very well. These were taped in place before soldering up from the inside where possible. 20180612_161944.jpg

    Then the bunker side castings were added and again the soldering was done on the inside where possible.
    20180612_162505.jpg

    And then the rear tank bottom castings are added. There is a gap at the front edge that I have Still to fill with some waste fret and solder

    20180612_145131.jpg

    Some filling of gaps with 70 degree solder needs to be done along with further rubbing down etc.
    20180612_165001.jpg

    In the instructions the next step is adding the cast step pieces below the cab door. However, the cab draft screens have miraculously appeared in the illustrations, but with no mention of actually fitting them. Making the hinged cab doors is mentioned earlier, but there is nothing about fitting them. Here's the doors and the draft screen being prepared.
    20180612_144801.jpg

    I have also identified the support stanchions for the rear bunker plate. Here they are on the right of the fret. They are not numbered and there is no mention of them in the instructions. It's hard to see in the photo, but there are 2 tiny locating tabs spaced the same as the half etch indents on the inside of the bunker plate. With hind sight, it would have been easier to fit them before the side castings but it should not be too difficult.
    20180612_092703.jpg

    By the way the cast fire box rests on two tabs on the cab front and then locates into the rear of the boiler. The boiler rests on a cross member between the tanks at the rear and on supports with tabs, towards the front. It's a nice design as it locates the boiler in the correct orientation and you can clip it in and out for sneak previews. I will be adding as much detail as possible to the boiler and fire box before final fitting.
    20180612_165419.jpg

    Cheers,
    Peter
     
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  8. adrian

    adrian Flying Squad

    That's strange I don't remember having any problems with gaps when building the tanks on my kit.

    You may be able to see in this post the rear casting fits very nicely sans gaps.
    4MT - Finishing the tanks and bunker - Cherry Clan

    I've measured the rear casting on my kit at 46mm long, although looking at it again on my kit the outer skin overlaps slightly the little bracket with the rear cab handrail. So it appears for whatever reason that cab rail stanchion is a little further aft on my kit hence no gap.
     
  9. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Hi Adrian,
    Interesting. It may be that an accumulation of errors fitting the etchings from front to back could account for the casting appearing to be short. However, I think that the slot and tab assembly precludes that. Maybe it is simply that the castings in my kit are shorter than yours, but I don't know if that is likely or possible. I'll measure the rear casting and see how it compares to yours. I note that Ken mentions filling the gaps with 2 part metal filler on his build, but it's not clear if he is referring to gaps in the tank bottom castings.

    Thanks for the link to your website. I was already aware of it, and downloaded the images for refference as I worked my way through it.

    Cheers,
    Peter
     
  10. adrian

    adrian Flying Squad

    That was my thought too - the slot and tabs lock everything together pretty accurately. So slightly confused how we can build it slightly differently unless the etchings have been tweaked for some reason.
     
  11. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Hi Adrian,
    I just measured the rear casting length on mine with dividers and a rule and they come out at 45mm. I am guessing that a slight different in shrinkage of the castings, coupled with more filing back of the ends on my part may account for it. On the forward castings perhaps the same has occurred.

    On the left side, the castings are in 2 parts. To get these to line up with the ends, I had to space them and hence the gap. On the right hand side, the castings are in 3 parts and again I had to space them to line them up at each end, which left 2 gaps. With the slot and twist tab construction throughout, I am confidant that I haven't increased the length of the etched structure from bunker rear to tank front. If we assume that the main etched overlays are correct and the overall length of the castings doesn't match, resulting in gaps, then it must be the castings that are too short probably for the reasons mentioned above. Interesting point that you make though.

    Cheers,
    Peter
     
  12. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Before fitting the draft screens and cab doors, I jumped ahead and fitted the edge piece to the bottom of the bunker rear plate. This allowed me to snip off the two locating tabs which were preventing the body sitting correctly at the rear end. Lots more rubbing down and smoothing to do but that can be done later.
    20180613_181639.jpg

    Inside the bunker also needs work to remove excess solder.
    20180613_181547.jpg

    Draft screen and hinged cab doors fitted.
    20180614_184954.jpg

    T'other side.
    20180614_185022.jpg

    The cab step backing plates are now fitted as are the castings for the tank balancing pipe.

    Here a view from the side.
    20180614_185302.jpg

    I need to fill the gaps at the tank curves and as well as the joints between the tank bottoms and sides behind the cab

    20180614_185343.jpg

    I used the ubiquitous coffee srirrers to wedge the step backing plates before soldering. The gaps at the front of the tank bottom castings was filled with a strip of waste etch and 145 solder, before dressing back and fitting the balance pipes. Further filling will be done with 70 degree solder and rubbed smooth. 20180614_185423.jpg

    And finally a shot with the body on the chassis. It now sits down correctly at the rear as mentioned earlier.
    20180614_185051.jpg

    Cheers,
    Peter
     
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  13. farnetti

    farnetti Western Thunderer

    Not mentioned in the instructions is an oval etch which fits around the regulator housing, I can't remember the part number but it is obvious.

    It is worth checking the tank balancing pipe is in the correct position. There are brackets fitted to the chassis either side of them which may foul.

    Moving further ahead, the water feed valve is bolted to the balancing pipe on the real thing RHS. I am thinking it would be better to to keep it in place just using the copper pipes to the injectors otherwise the body cannot be separated from the chassis. This is hindered or helped because there is no clearance between the outer pipe and the cab steps, see photo in the instruction addendums. This could be useful to clip it in place when body and chassis are screwed together.

    Ken
     
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  14. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Thanks for the heads up Ken. I'll bear in mind the points you raise.

    I'm still moving ahead slowly and have been working on the bunker. I have now bitten the bullet and added the stachions mentioned earlier. This would have been better done in the flat, but again, the coffee srirrers came into play. I cut a length with a groove at one end that allowed me to wedge the stanshions in place for soldering.

    20180615_131519.jpg

    It worked so well I did the same with the vents. There is a lug on the casting near the bottom, that locates into a hole in the cab rear. After wedding the vents in place it was easy to line them up and solder.
    20180615_131756.jpg

    Here are the stachions after soldering and cleaning up. 20180615_211454.jpg

    And the vents.
    20180615_211609.jpg

    The half round beading has also been added. I did the side bits first slightly long, then snipped and filed flush with the rear plate. The remaining piece of beading was then annealed to make curving it easier and again fitted slightly long. After snipping it was then filed and rubbed down to blend with the side bits.
    20180615_204316.jpg

    And the other side.
    20180615_211020.jpg

    Up to now I've just been placing the body on the chassis, but in these photos I added the 8BA retaining bolt at the rear. It's a testament to the excellent fit of the parts that with the front running plate and smoke box saddle still not soldered to the boiler, that it sits perfectly level. The front end is retained by two tabs on the formost spacer on main frames, locating into slots on the frame extensions under the smoke box.
    20180615_211256.jpg

    I was hoping to have got further on the build this week, but lost some modelling time cleaning up this beam compass, which I picked up for less than a song on eBay. Collecting drawing instruments is my other hobby. Clipped together, it's about 4 ft long so could be used for offset lined on the real thing. ;)

    20180613_153828.jpg

    Cheers,
    Peter
     
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  15. Steph Dale

    Steph Dale Western Thunderer

    :eek:Cough! Trammel...? :)

    I can't see any makers marks; who's it made by? Looks good quality though. I've got a Moore and Wright one hereabouts, which is truly a thing of beauty. There's also a surprisingly nice aluminium Staedler one in with the gear I used to use for real. I haven't touched any of my drafting gear for about 5 years now; it's all CAD for me now.

    I used to enjoy using film and ink, mostly Rotring and Blundell Harling gear - the good stuff when I started in the very early nineties.

    Steph
     
  16. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Hi Steph,
    There are no makers marks on either the beams, trammels or points, but it is probably made by W H Harling, around 1950. This was before they were bought by Blundell and moved to Weymouth. There was a lot of trade between the major makers, so even with a maker's mark on the instruments, they could have been made by somebody else.

    Why this beam compass is unmarked I could only speculate, but I'm fairly confidant it's by Harling.

    Although i don't have a large collection, I have sets by most of the major English makers, as well as some of the German and Swiss ones. Here's a couple of sets by Lee Guinness of Northern Ireland. The smaller set includes a drop bow compass which you don't often find in UK sets. Not that they were not included, just that I've
    have never found one at a price I'm willing to pay.
    20180401_144618.jpg

    This full set differs from the above in that the makers name on the larger instruments is stamped on the fork at the joint and the fork and handle are nickel silver. On the one above, the makers name is on the compass legs and the fork and handle are steel.s
    20180415_212302.jpg
    This company were set up in the 1940s to make copies of the round pattern Riefler instruments, of which I also have some examples. Riefler being German, were of course not available at that time due to the war. They subsequently made flat pattern instruments as above in two qualities. These are the higher quality. The head design is a close copy of the British Empire Pattern, as specified for government use. This type of head was a close copy of an earlier Kern design and Harling, Thornton and Stanley were the main suppliers to HM government of this pattern.

    I believe Lee Guinness (that is a double barrelled surname), may have been part of or set up by family members of the KLG spark plug company. This company was set up to make a new design of spark plug, invented by Kenelm Lee Guinness a well know racing driver thr 1920s. I believe the instrument company were based in Newtownards just outside Belfast and went bust in 1963.

    Have a look at this website:-
    Home

    It's by guy called David Riches, who incidently models in 7mm. He wrote a review of the Jim Harris original Merchant Navy in the Gazzette some years ago.

    Fascinating stuff.

    Cheers,
    Peter
     
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  17. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

     
  18. Steph Dale

    Steph Dale Western Thunderer

    Peter,

    Some nice sets there, I confess that I think it's something I could get into rather too easily. It's always good to see other WT-ers interests too. :thumbs:

    Are you a draftsman, or is this a more academic interest?

    Steph
     
  19. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Hi Steph,
    I wish I was a draftsman but regrettably not.
    About 5 years ago I was looking to find a supplier of a new drawing pen for loco lining and after searching on Google, all sort of interesting stuff popped up and I started collecting pens and sets mostly bought on Ebay. Before that I did find an art shop that still sold new ones by Ecobra. Haff I also found on the internet, but they were not easy to purchase from so I bought the Ecobra one for about 30 quid. It's nothing special, but as I only wanted it for the odd valance line that was not so easy to do with transfers, it is OK. Since then I have acquired many better ones in sets bought in some cases for less than I paid for the Ecobra one! I have three Haff sets dating from the 1960s, one of which I was informed by the seller, that his father used it on the redevelopment of Stuttgart Airport.

    Maybe when I retire, I will have the time and inclination to acquire the skills to line locos, but I doubt if I could ever achieve as good a result as I can with transfers. Now with the likes of Warren Haywood ( and some skilled amateurs), that is a different story completely. He's painting my Gladiator Duchess and when I took it over, he showed me some of the stuff going through his workshop. Truly incredible!

    I suppose the drawing pens and spring bow pens being use for lining, would not be off topic for this forum, so maybe I'll post some more photos of my sets in the gallery section???.
    Cheers,
    Peter
     
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  20. Steph Dale

    Steph Dale Western Thunderer

    Yep, why not post in the gallery - it could well help people looking for a set to do lining, as you do.

    Sorry for the diversions, I'm enjoying watching the Std 4 too!

    Steph
     
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