Motor bogies

hoppy504

Western Thunderer
** I have split this from 'Big stuff' as it is of wider interest **

This might seem like a question i thought up during a SAGA moment.
What is the problem with the sprocket and chain transmission system, and what have most builders of Freds kits used?
I am asking this as I am still thinking of trying to build (destroy ;D ;D) a kit myself, but being no engineer I would like a method that uses a lump hammer and chisel for assembly.

john.
 

Phill Dyson

Western Thunderer
hoppy504 said:
This might seem like a question i thought up during a SAGA moment.
What is the problem with the sprocket and chain transmission system, and what have most builders of Freds kits used?
I am asking this as I am still thinking of trying to build (destroy ;D ;D) a kit myself, but being no engineer I would like a method that uses a lump hammer and chisel for assembly.

john.
I have had years of trouble free running with Delrin chains & sprockets in O gauge  :thumbs:
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
hoppy504 said:
This might seem like a question i thought up during a SAGA moment.
What is the problem with the sprocket and chain transmission system, and what have most builders of Freds kits used?
I am asking this as I am still thinking of trying to build (destroy ;D ;D) a kit myself, but being no engineer I would like a method that uses a lump hammer and chisel for assembly.

john.

I don't know about the specifics of this kit, but having one motor offers some advantages in that it's potentially easier to DCC and in the case of this model I wondered whether a chain drive might be a bit visible - this was perhaps one of the reasons that Cynric was looking at individual axle drive.

My backgound is from modelling US and European HO, where diesels (and even steam locos) with one motor driving all axles is common.  It's therefore an approach I like, trust and understand.  At the end of the day it's just another option to consider.

Steph
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
28ten said:
Clearance under the cab is tight, which is a problem, but more than that suitable gears are quite hard to find

Cynric,

Point taken, if you look towards the bottom of the P&D Models page you'll see that you can buy the drive components seperately (I'm not sure I'd want to use the Pittman because of their inefficiency, but the torque has some attraction), you could probably buy the parts to put the 'tower' closer to the inner axle of the bogie.  You'd probably be okay with an 5-8 degree rotation on the bogie if using a good u/j...

Steph
 

Simon

Flying Squad
Oddly enough, my D6315 has one of those (Pittman) motors driving one axle, with delrin drive to the other. There is a gurt big hole cut into the underfrome to allow it to stick up into the body void.

It is quite a smooth runner but draws one hell of a current, it is my intention to replace it with something more sophisticated when I find it, so please carry on deliberating!!

It also runs out of grunt and stalls when I tack all of my wagonry on the back, so it is a pretty useless tool as configured in my loco, although the gearing may be too low(?)

Simon
 

28ten

Guv'nor
I agree Phill, the delrin chain is very reliable and the performance is good, but I recently finished a Peak with twin ABC motor bogies which has proven to be  incredibly powerful but also retaining superb slow speed running and I see them as the Rolls Royce solution with quick and easy fitting to diesel locos. the downside is the £320 price tag for a pair  :eek: and now I have a Warship on the way as well I need a slightly more economical solution for the pair :scratch: although if I cant do better myself I will just have to flog some more 7mm kit and buy the ABC units  :))
Ideally I would like to incorporate sprung suspension, and that would mean quite a bit of work on the kit parts, then I thought what about split axles and acrylic frames? and before you know it its a whole transmission  :)) :))
The single motor appeals as there is bags of space in a 1/32 body but might  get tight around the cab, either way I will draw it all up to see the clearances.
Steph, I presume the Yanks use 3/16 axles?
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
28ten said:
Steph, I presume the Yanks use 3/16 axles?

Ping-Ping: C'mon Jordan, hurry up.  Help us out here, please mate!

Erm, don't know boss.  I had one of the lovely Red Caboose GP9 locos here for a while until a mate spirited it away about a year ago.  My guess is 'yes', but I think Jordan has one of the drive sets in one of his locos, so he'd be a better man to ask...

I'll be interested in the reply too!

Steph
 

Phill Dyson

Western Thunderer
Simon said:
Oddly enough, my D6315 has one of those (Pittman) motors driving one axle, with delrin drive to the other. There is a gurt big hole cut into the underfrome to allow it to stick up into the body void.

It is quite a smooth runner but draws one hell of a current, it is my intention to replace it with something more sophisticated when I find it, so please carry on deliberating!!

It also runs out of grunt and stalls when I tack all of my wagonry on the back, so it is a pretty useless tool as configured in my loco, although the gearing may be too low(?)

Simon

What ratio is it running Simon?.

I had a similar problem with D824 which I bought RTR, it had a ratio which was great for crawling round an engine shed or a shunting planks, but pretty hopeless for pulling 8 or 9 coaches & the top speed was about 15mph scale speed  :headbang: :headbang: :)). I had to re-bogie that one because of the integral gearboxes but all is now well with 12.5:1 .

All my kit built locos have 12.5:1 gears & delrin chain/sprockets & most now have flywheels (all will eventually but I will have to replace some motors to achieve this). The locos also have plenty of added weight (which helps) & free running axles,  they will now happily crawl around but will also give a good turn of speed too  :thumbs:

Phill  :wave:
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Phill Dyson said:
All my kit built locos have 12.5:1 gears & delrin chain/sprockets & most now have flywheels (all will eventually but I will have to replace some motors to achieve this). The locos also have plenty of added weight (which helps) & free running axles,  they will now happily crawl around but will also give a good turn of speed too  :thumbs:

Phill,

What motors are you using in that set-up?  Are both bogies driven and if so, are the motors in parallel or series?

Just wondering - it would help me to know when the time comes to sort out my LMS Bo-Bo. 

Cheers, Steph
 

Phill Dyson

Western Thunderer
28ten said:
I agree Phill, the delrin chain is very reliable and the performance is good, but I recently finished a Peak with twin ABC motor bogies which has proven to be  incredibly powerful but also retaining superb slow speed running and I see them as the Rolls Royce solution with quick and easy fitting to diesel locos. the downside is the £320 price tag for a pair  :eek: and now I have a Warship on the way as well I need a slightly more economical solution for the pair :scratch: although if I cant do better myself I will just have to flog some more 7mm kit and buy the ABC units  :))
I do agree ABC's are the best option available for conventional drive, but as you at a price. I was very tempted to go down this route for my JLTRT Western, but in the end I have gone for Roxey Gearboxes/Delrin, Mashimas & flywheels which will be fine  :thumbs:

Phill  :wave:
 

Phill Dyson

Western Thunderer
Steph Dale said:
Phill,

What motors are you using in that set-up?  Are both bogies driven and if so, are the motors in parallel or series?

Just wondering - it would help me to know when the time comes to sort out my LMS Bo-Bo. 

Cheers, Steph

Hi Steph  :wave:

My twin motor loco's are wired in parallel (Warships & Westerns), but for type 3 & below (Hymek & Class 33 )I only use one motor. I have never quite seen why a lot of people insist on twin motors for every diesel type  :scratch:

Phill  :thumbs:
 

28ten

Guv'nor
Phill Dyson said:
I do agree ABC's are the best option available for conventional drive, but as you at a price. I was very tempted to go down this route for my JLTRT Western, but in the end I have gone for Roxey Gearboxes/Delrin, Mashimas & flywheels which will be fine  :thumbs:

Phill  :wave:
Just dont use the set up as supplied in the kit - it is a nightmare and never meshes properly. I had to rip two out of models built this way as it would never quite run properly in both directions  :headbang:
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Phill Dyson said:
Hi Steph  :wave:

My twin motor loco's are wired in parallel (Warships & Westerns), but for type 3 & below (Hymek & Class 33 )I only use one motor. I have never quite seen why a lot of people insist on twin motors for every diesel type  :scratch:

Phill  :thumbs:

Oh crud.  I wish I'd spoken to you first.  I went for two ABC 'diesel' gearboxes with Delrin drive.  18:1 in my case as I'm using a surplus-stock Maxon that seems to have equivalent performance to a Mashima (bit more torque, less current and less noise though - all are useful with DCC+s).  Photo is below (bu88er, should have done that in aperture-priority).  In a Type 1 loco with a top speed of, IIRC, 70mph.  Having two motors does seem a little overkill.  Mind you, it will need to haul 5 or 6 coaches and I'm looking for something better than the prototype's reliability...!  :scratch:

I guess it might be useful if you can give me an idea of how much one of your locos weighs so I can have a think?

Sorry for crashing your thread, Cynric. :headbang:

Steph
 

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28ten

Guv'nor
Steph Dale said:
Oh crud.  I wish I'd spoken to you first.  I went for two ABC 'diesel' gearboxes with Delrin drive.  18:1 in my case as I'm using a surplus-stock Maxon that seems to have equivalent performance to a Mashima (bit more torque, less current and less noise though - all are useful with DCC+s).  Photo is below (bu88er, should have done that in aperture-priority).  In a Type 1 loco with a top speed of, IIRC, 70mph.  Having two motors does seem a little overkill.  Mind you, it will need to haul 5 or 6 coaches and I'm looking for something better than the prototype's reliability...!  :scratch:

I guess it might be useful if you can give me an idea of how much one of your locos weighs so I can have a think?

Sorry for crashing your thread, Cynric. :headbang:

Steph
A motor bogie thread might be an idea as this is all good information for everyone and it will just get buried in here once the build starts
 

Phill Dyson

Western Thunderer
28ten said:
Just dont use the set up as supplied in the kit - it is a nightmare and never meshes properly. I had to rip two out of models built this way as it would never quite run properly in both directions  :headbang:
No I think the set up in the kit is very dubious  ;)
 

28ten

Guv'nor
Well, this is what I have so far, the inner frames are the same dimension as those in the kit.
 

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Jordan

Mid-Western Thunderer
Steph Dale said:
Ping-Ping: C'mon Jordan, hurry up.  Help us out here, please mate!

Erm, don't know boss.  I had one of the lovely Red Caboose GP9 locos here for a while until a mate spirited it away about a year ago.  My guess is 'yes', but I think Jordan has one of the drive sets in one of his locos, so he'd be a better man to ask...

I'll be interested in the reply too!

Steph
Sorry Steph - this thread has taken off since I last looked...!! Now I'm catching up at work, so I can't just pop up the shed and measure some axles either.... ::) :-[

Offhand I think the axle dia. is the same as UK; I've used sprockets from P&D with Delrin chain okay, BUT...

(and it's a big BUT....)

I have to say I'm not that impressed with the Weaver drive method - not as smooth as new Atlas stuff, and not much of an improvement over the original 1970's Atlas drive (central motor/gear towers), and yes the current draw is horrendous- I have a 1-1/4 Amp handheld controller that struggles to give my GP40 any decent speed - lash it up with my F7 which is also Weaver drive and they barely move!! It is also a bit noisy compared to Atlas/Heljan, (like my Delrin Class 22),  despite lubrication. :headbang:
It could all just be me, of course, and the effect I have whereby something that works perfectly for everyone else simply falls to bits in my hands.... :shit:

My Red Caboose GP9 has the '70s Atlas drive but with flywheels, which transforms it - I have spare flywheels to fit to my FP7 (same drive) to see if they'll help there.
I'm actually considering getting a second original Atlas chassis for the F7 and ditching the Weaver drive. The GP40 is stuck with it for now.

Sorry this is A) not much help with the axle dia. question, and B) a bit of a thread hi-jack....
 
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