New Dapol O Gauge Wagons

[Eastsidepilot]

..... More discerning / knowledgeable modellers will buy a kit and fit an etched chassis.

Exactly.......play toy trains.........or build a railway model

Col.

 

[Dikitriki]

Can I point out that there is a middle way.

I quite unashamedly use RTR (though I hope with some discernment as to which, and never without some weathering at least) so that I can run the number and length of trains I want at an earlier stage than would otherwise be the case.
This leaves me free to concentrate on the more important tasks at the moment on the layout.

When the layout is at an acceptable standard or level of completeness, I will revisit the RTR stock and detail if possible and dispose of if not, replacing with kit built as time allows. In the meantime, I have had the fun of playing trains properly.

Cheers

Richard

 

[28ten]

Would you buy the wagons in question?

 

[Dikitriki]

No.

They are slightly earlier period than I want anyway. I wasn't impressed with the general finish when I looked at them at Warley, and seeing the knowledgable criticism above, definitely not now.

I was perhaps widening the point to include the use generally of RTR, though I do know of some quite decent modellers who are delighted with the Dapol wagons.

I have a modest number of Lionheart wagons, MTH, and Bachmann coaches and a more significant number of Cowling coaches as RTR. I'd like to build everything myself, but it aint going to happen short-term.

Richard

 

[28ten]

IMHO the lionheart are a couple of divisions above the Dapol, and the standard I expect rtr to be.

 

[Ressaldar]

let's hope that Dapol announce that they are following up their 08 with an 07 and then that might persude ABS to release the kit for the 07 that they have been sitting on for so long

regards

Mike

 

[Adrian B.Swain]

Hi all, Really interesting replies and as pointed out by DJP we are not too keen on buiding our own gallows although I did, stupidly, buy 3 of the wagons but sent one back and will sell the others, hopefully before my posts get too widely read. Replacement brakegear packs would have been available at Reading GOG meeting but I did not bother as the rest was so bad. The design of the brakegear/axleguard unit makes it almost impossible to fit new brakes. I do buy RTR !! Life is too short and I like to make certain things myself but not everything. I can reveal that Ebay is a great source of cheap RTR PO wagons, made from the better kits, if you look at the pictures VERY CAREFULLY. I would not have revealed this but I now have so many I do not have room for more !!
Not every ebay purchase is a winner and some models do require TLC and a few 43 two 1 bits to bring up to
scratch but I never pay as much as £35 inc P&P for ordinary opens & POs, often less than £20. I enjoy the
challenge of "sows ears into silk purses" far more than starting from an unbuilt kit. I suppose I am peculiar but
that's understood if one is a kit manufacturer. The gist of Dapol's reply was that they understood my points but
had sold every model made, presumably 1800, so must be doing something right !! That amounts to taking
about £70,000 out of the O gauge money pot. I would not be surprised if that was quite close to the combined
total of Slaters and Parksides turnover for PO wagons for a number of years. Just think what sort of effect
that might have on the viability of a kit manufacturer deciding to invest in new models. Dapol are already
listing more wagon models for 2013 and a rerun of the PO wagons. It is no skin off my nose if I say that
A.B.S. Models has never turned over £70,000 in one year with the combined sales of all our ranges !!
Most modellers have no idea of the economics of the small manufacturer, most of whose proprietors
rarely earn the average wage. Their businesses can be destroyed almost overnight when the big boys
move in. I know it is "survival of the fittest" but the fittest may not necessarily be the ones you have
expected or wanted to survive. Without the kit makers there would be NO thriving Gauge O scene and if
they disappear--- Adrian

 

[Pennine MC]

The gist of Dapol's reply was that they understood my points but had sold every model made, presumably 1800, so must be doing something right !!

This is a rather complacent and defensive, even dismissive, sort of attitude IMO, it frustrates and saddens me, and I've heard it from another source recently but on a quite different subject. In fact it's arguably a 'straw man' argument - of course they're 'doing something right', nobody is saying they're not.

They're doing lots of things right, but the point is that with just a bit of extra effort and an open mind, they could do a bit more that's right. I'm afraid the only real message that I pick up from 'we must be doing something right' is basically 'go away, take it or leave it but don't bother us'.

 

[Phill Dyson]

IMO RTR manufacturers would be better off making coaching stock of post-grouping/BR types & freight vehicles that ran in block trains up to & including the BR era, the kit manufacturers can then supply the more individual items of stock.

 

[Jordan]

Can I point out that there is a middle way.

Thanks Richard... a voice of balanced reason concerning R-T-R at last....

I think what really gets me riled is this notion that anyone relying on R-T-R to any extent whatsoever is somehow in the "Toy Train Brigade".
The place R-T-R should have is that of saving a modeller time - that's why I consider using it; it can make the difference between doing "Something" in 7mm and doing "Nothing" - but I get the impression (maybe wrongly) that there would be a preference by some if others did indeed do "Nothing" in this scale because if they do "Something", using R-T-R, it is somehow "dumbing down" the scale as a whole. Personally I don't see that R-T-R would take away that many sales from Kits; since a person who relies entirely on R-T-R is unlikely to buy a kit anyway....
It is indeed just a great shame that much of the R-T-R in 7mm is failing to reach acceptable standards; to be honest the list of 40 faults with the Dapol wagon doesn't really matter - the single issue of the brake shoe "alignment" (using the word rather loosely) is enough to put me off, if I'd wanted one in the first place....

Anyway now Adrian has given us more of an introduction, may I re-post "Welcome to Western Thunder", but this time without the smiley.... oh b*gger...

 

[marsa69]

What he said

 

[28ten]

Personally I don't see that R-T-R would take away that many sales from Kits; since a person who relies entirely on R-T-R is unlikely to buy a kit anyway....

It is indeed just a great shame that much of the R-T-R in 7mm is failing to reach acceptable standards; to be honest the list of 40 faults with the Dapol wagon doesn't really matter - the single issue of the brake shoe "alignment" (using the word rather loosely) is enough to put me off, if I'd wanted one in the first place....

Anyway now Adrian has given us more of an introduction, may I re-post "Welcome to Western Thunder", but this time without the smiley.... oh b*gger...

Like you, I do wonder how many people buying the dapol wagon will bother building any kits. Totally agree about the brakes, it is toy like, but if people gratefully lap it up and buy them then where is the incentive to improve them? I also wonder if people accept deficiencies in rolling stock that they would not tolerate in locomotives?
My concern would be that in driving prices down there is a race to the bottom rather than a race to improving the standard, tension lock coupling anyone?

 

[Eastsidepilot]

If Dapol can sell what they have developed at the level they have I can't see them improving it, they don't care about scale fidelity as we see it just the £'s they are making.
And we all know that there is a limit to what can be produced in one jelly mould so anything that comes close to what can be produced with a good kit is going to be a hell of a lot more expensive.
To me RTR O gauge is a standard not a scale ( like OO), a compromise ( just look at the track, to me thats as bad as out of line brake gear) and it pleases some and not others, but thats model railways for you.

ATB, Happy New Year however you railway model,
Col

 

[Pennine MC]

Thanks Richard... a voice of balanced reason concerning R-T-R at last....

Well, not quite 'at last': with no offence to Richard, I did post this last night (I do hope I'm not going to have to start a series of 'invisible ink' posts):

And was it ever any different, Cynric? Well, it has changed a bit; those of us with aspirations might expect the RTR to be a decent basis, a timesaver that will free up resources for other jobs, rather than being a major project in itself as RTR used to be.

IMO RTR manufacturers would be better off making coaching stock of post-grouping/BR types & freight vehicles that ran in block trains up to & including the BR era, the kit manufacturers can then supply the more individual items of stock.

I'm sure I'm not being particularly profound by suggesting that Dapol have chosen POs because of the 'cash cow' aspect of the myriad liveries; that aside, I'd agree that the best choices in RTR are those things that are needed in quantity, the things that Bachmann in particular have always been good at identifying for 2mm and 4mm.

 

[Neil]

Well it's interesting to see what matters in the 7mm world, and compare it to my own experience in the next but one down. I'm pretty sure that the detail wouldn't be the deal breaker in 4mm, these days I tend not to give a flying one if the break gear doesn't line up with the wheels (or for that matter if some part is moulded rather than separately applied) being more interested in the shape and proportion. If the fiddly bits bug me (as I get older they tend to bug me less) then I'll do something about them.

I have two ideas why the detail may matter more in the bigger sizes. The model is bigger, the detail is more obvious. The models cost more, therefore there's less inclination to view them as raw material. Actually the more I think about it the more I wonder if it is mainly to do with the bigger scales requiring deeper pockets and a different mindset coming into play as a consequence. I know that 7mm can be done on a shoestring, but most appear not to.

 

[iploffy]

One further point could people be looking at the standard in OO and super imposing it onto the O gauge offerings as many in the 4mm camp don't seem overly bothered about small discrepancies

 

[Phill Dyson]

One further point could people be looking at the standard in OO and super imposing it onto the O gauge offerings as many in the 4mm camp don't seem overly bothered about small discrepancies

I wish they would & with prices to suit.............plenty more scope for my kit bashing then

 

[Pennine MC]

One further point could people be looking at the standard in OO and super imposing it onto the O gauge offerings as many in the 4mm camp don't seem overly bothered about small discrepancies

Given that at least some of the prospective 7mm-ites are 'coming up' from 4mm with a 'same but bigger' mindset and not really knowing what they're looking at because they've never built anything themselves, I'm sure there's something in that.

I've not read Adrian's list of shortcomings right through - but solid safety loops, really? I dont always necessarily replace them in 4mm, even on a kitbuild, but in 7mm? Per- lease

 

[SteveO]

I can reveal that Ebay is a great source of cheap RTR PO wagons... I never pay as much as £35 inc P&P... often less than £20

Why would you, as a kit producer, pay even that much? Surely, it's a fiver's worth of raw material, a couple hours of your time and a wheel set? This, incidentally, works out to around £35 inc P&P using your price list when you include the wheels, which automatically begs the question; why are you charging it if even you wouldn't pay it?

That amounts to taking about £70,000 out of the O gauge money pot... It is no skin off my nose if I say that A.B.S. Models has never turned over £70,000 in one year with the combined sales of all our ranges !!

No offense, but with your vast catalogue, if you're not making even this much you're doing something very wrong. With a conservative average order as low as £25 (approx 1 wagon kit) that's only 54 units per week - I would assume an average order is much, much higher than this, considering you don't have a web presence and don't accept credit cards, albeit with a frequency that is very low.

Most modellers have no idea of the economics of the small manufacturer, most of whose proprietors rarely earn the average wage. Their businesses can be destroyed almost overnight when the big boys move in. I know it is "survival of the fittest" but the fittest may not necessarily be the ones you have
expected or wanted to survive...

Again, no offense, but most kit producers and smaller suppliers don't know how to sell their product. I'm not pointing fingers but if I didn't know how to do something I would ask somebody who did. I've read various posts by manufacturers over the short period of time I've been in this hobby and can't help thinking that they are just busy building the slippery slope they're about to take a ride on. It sounds all too much like sour grapes to me.

Which reminds me, I'm going to open another bottle.

By the way, if you are the genuine A.B.S. and wanted to sell up, I'm all ears.

 

[BrushType4]

Again, no offense, but most kit producers and smaller suppliers don't know how to sell their product. I'm not pointing fingers but if I didn't know how to do something I would ask somebody who did. I've read various posts by manufacturers over the short period of time I've been in this hobby and can't help thinking that they are just busy building the slippery slope they're about to take a ride on.

Too true, but what do we know?...

I tried to buy a model railway producer and he refused point blank to let my accountants look at the books saying something that accountants don't know what they are taking about and he assured me that he was profitable. Also said something about don't tell the wife who you work for, as she wouldn't let you in the house if she knew.

Needless to say it didn't get very far...

Steve I'd start saving up now for the stock you'll be expected to buy if and when you get that call...

Back on thread, I won't be buying any Dapol wagons and I have reservations about the 08 too.