New Dapol O Gauge Wagons

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Adrian B.Swain

Active Member
Hi I am sorry to have to correct you but the majority of Continental quality models e.g. Fulgurex etc are made to
7mm/ ft, as are the new MTH continental model locos and coach packs. One or two of the cheaper "Toy Train"
manufacturers in this market do use 1:45 although the scale of some items is a bit indeterminate. This has
caused some dismay amongst modellers who would have preferred a consistent scale. It is very convenient for me as the narrow gauge modellers find many of our Wrightlines products match perfectly and much of the WW1
war department range can be seen, full size, in france on their preserved 2' gauge (should really say 60cm but
the gauge is not quite that critical) Adrian
 

Pennine MC

Western Thunderer
I like to build kits so RTR is an irrelevance but I don't see the point in buying a so-called RTR wagon that then has to be chopped about to correct something as basic as getting the brake blocks to line up with the wheels!

Leafing through a recent review (Hornby Magazine, I expect there are others), I'm struck by something even more basic. The 'corner plates' are not actually anything of the sort - it doesnt wrap round from the end to the side, there's a very visible gap there and if it was a real wagon, it would start to fall apart within a few yards. Not as obvious on the ones with black ironwork of course, but it really smacks you in the eye on the BR grey version and even a poorly finished kit would stand more chance of looking better. It's something so very basic, it doesnt reassure me that whoever designed them actually knows very much about how a real wagon is constructed.
 

Dave

Western Thunderer
Whilst browsing 'over there' I spotted a banner linking to the Model Rail /RMweb/ MRE "Model of the Year 2012" survey...

OK, I was bored and I really couldn't care less as the first two pages were about N and OO gauges but when I got to the question about O gauge rolling stock I clicked the drop-down and was given only two options to choose from - those being the 'Dapol 1923 RCH 7-plank open', or 'Dapol 1923 RCH 5-plank open' At that point I closed the page...

What a load of :shit:
 

Pennine MC

Western Thunderer
You've reminded me Dave, it's nice to see that Adrian has eventually been allowed to speak on that thread and that the undoubted superiority of the Lionheart wagons has been explained.

Sadly, it's a pattern I've observed several times now - the dissenting voice is always marginalised by one method or another, then if they're persistent enough and can take the flak from the party faithful and the 'anti-rivet counter' army, they get to post what they should have been able to post all along.
 

Jordan

Mid-Western Thunderer
Whilst browsing 'over there' I spotted a banner linking to the Model Rail /RMweb/ MRE "Model of the Year 2012" survey...

OK, I was bored and I really couldn't care less as the first two pages were about N and OO gauges but when I got to the question about O gauge rolling stock I clicked the drop-down and was given only two options to choose from - those being the 'Dapol 1923 RCH 7-plank open', or 'Dapol 1923 RCH 5-plank open' At that point I closed the page...

What a load of :shit:
I filled it all in, choosing every item totally at random....:D
The massive "choice" of O Scale wagons listed did make me smile, in an ironic sort of way....:rolleyes:
 

Adrian B.Swain

Active Member
Hi again, Finally gave in and bought 2 of Lionheart's rivetted steel minerals at Bristol even though I only really
wanted one. I already have more than enough Coal 16T from a certain other kit range. What a difference to
the quality of the Dapol wagons, they are about as accurate as possible within the limitations of mass production
and pricing whereas the Dapol wagons are about as bad as possible. It is almost an embarassment to have the
Lionheart wagons in the same train as my own models. I shall have to weather them very badly to disguise
how good they are.
Dave, are you sure you were not being asked to vote for the WORST model of the year ?? I would venture
to say the Dapol 5 plank is probably the most inaccurate wagon model of the last half century in O gauge. I
should know, I've been modelling in 7mm for 50 years now !! Are there any other contenders for the dunce's
cap. It is a bit unfair to offer the Triang Big Big mineral bearing in mind it was aimed at the TOY market and
was not described as, and I quote from the Dapol packaging, " Authentic Scale Model" Even the Triang wagon
can be "cut and shut" to give a fair reporesentation of a Dia 1/108 and there were a few rebuilt coal wagons
which were 17' 6" long on 10' wheelbase underframes which avoids shortening them altogether.
I appreciate the Dapol wagons look very attractive as do the Big Big wagons but the liveries, in most cases,
are as inappropriate as those on the Triang models.
Save your money for the forthcoming Lionheart wagons if you MUST buy RTR Regards all Adrian
 

BrushType4

Western Thunderer
Adrian, I'd buy your second lionheart if its needing a home. :thumbs:

I have some ABS 16 tonnes in the to be built pile, I'm wondering if I should get my money back and buy more Lionhearts.... :)
 

djparkins

Western Thunderer
You've reminded me Dave, it's nice to see that Adrian has eventually been allowed to speak on that thread and that the undoubted superiority of the Lionheart wagons has been explained.

Sadly, it's a pattern I've observed several times now - the dissenting voice is always marginalised by one method or another, then if they're persistent enough and can take the flak from the party faithful and the 'anti-rivet counter' army, they get to post what they should have been able to post all along.

Yes - and we should also remember that it was not only on RMWeb that Adrian was treated with disrespect and lectured to - it happened here as well - and not just by some rank & file members but by those who should have known better and are supposed to uphold the reputation of the forum.

Death to the Anti Rivet Counters! - Peace Man!!!

DJP
 

Jordan

Mid-Western Thunderer
.... we should also remember that it was not only on RMWeb that Adrian was treated with disrespect and lectured to - it happened here as well - and not just by some rank & file members but by those who should have known better and are supposed to uphold the reputation of the forum.

.....
That'll probably be me, then....?
My first response to Adrian's OP here was more to the point that his very first post on this Forum was an out-and-out blast of a particular item from a manufacturer, rather than the actual content of his post. I am no fan of the Dapol wagon, and won't be buying any, but it didn't need 40 errors to lead me to that opinion - the way-off brake shoes were enough!!
As my main interest doesn't really encompass BR wagons anyway, and, vis-a-vis, the makers of kits depicting said wagons, I am also only vaguely aware of ranges such as ABS, so did not link the name of Mr Swain with that product either.... which is why Introductions posted by New Members are so important and welcome, and I was very grateful to be enlightened as to who Adrian is, when he did so.
No disrespect or lecturing was intended on my part.
 

Pennine MC

Western Thunderer
My first response to Adrian's OP here was more to the point that his very first post on this Forum was an out-and-out blast of a particular item from a manufacturer, rather than the actual content of his post.

Fair comment Jordan. To me, the important point is that your post wasn't made out of some maladaptive kneejerk reaction to criticism of a sacred cow; what really stuck in my craw elsewhere was the way that Adrian's posts were dismissed because of his 'vested interest'. But if someone without a vested interest had made the same observations, would that make the wagons any better models?

Which reminds me, has anyone heard how the Rmweb limited editions based on the Dapol item are doing?
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Putting the RMweb thread aside for a moment, where can WT readers find an objective review of the Dapol 7mm scale wagons. I ask simply because I found a review of production items in a recent railway modelling magasine and there is no critique in respect of accuracy or authenticity - even though the photographs show wagons with approaching a 4" gap between brake blocks and wheel tread.

regards, Graham
 

Adrian B.Swain

Active Member
Hi Graham, Alas, referring to the "Vested interests" comment above I am afraid you are very unlikely to
find any truly objective reviews in any magazine that carries Dapol advertising. I am sure you can work
out why for yourself without me explicitly telling you. I have already listed about 20 errors but in fact it
would be much easier to list those aspects of some of the releases which are correct by the standards
normally achieved by the better kit suppliers. In the case of some of the 5 plank releases so far, the only
parts that are accurate about, say, the GW variant are the coupling links which are let down in appearance
by being bright shiny plated. I don't think the fact that it has 4 wheels and buffers and runs on O gauge
track actually would give it a high score. especially as on the model referred to the wheels and buffers are
completely incorrect fot the GWR Diagram O4 design which it purports to represent. I will admit that they
have got the colour of the lettering correct and more or less in the right relative positions. They do look
attractive but then so did the Rovex- Triang Princess loco of the early 1950s. Standards have moved on a
bit since then, at least in some quarters. If anyone wants the 40 plus errors fully detailed I think they
had better ask the Moderator if he would be happy to permit such a lengthy post. Regards Adrian
 
S

SteveO

Guest
Thanks Adrian, that post made me laugh out loud. And at 1.20am, that's pretty special. Cheers!
 

Jordan

Mid-Western Thunderer
Putting the RMweb thread aside for a moment, where can WT readers find an objective review of the Dapol 7mm scale wagons. ....
I'd say that you'd find it right here, with Adrian's comments. He may be seen as "vested interest" (or "competition" the cynical would say) but he also seems to have an encyclopedic knowledge of the subject.
I'm in two minds whether we really do need the entire list of errors posted (maybe by PM for those interested?)... I do like the idea of the rather shorter list of accuracies, though :D - I take it the models do actually have the same amount of planks as they are advertised as possessing...?? :)) :rolleyes: :thumbs:
 

Osgood

Western Thunderer
This saga seems to illustrate quite well the benefit (or necessity even?) of manufacturers wishing to sell to the discerning end of the market to have either:

1) a passionate interest in/ knowledge of what they intend to produce, or

2) sufficient knowledge of the potential market to realise they need to engage someone who does, to act as consultant and help them get it right.

The consequence of non-compliance is evident in the preceding 5 pages! Quite amazing that a company such as Dapol appears to have overlooked this - unless their intended market was indeed the 'tinplate' end only? (not intended to offend - just struggling for the right word). What extra effort / cost would it really have taken to get these accurate? :rolleyes:

Having said that, they do look good to the casual observer, and a trainload of weathered ones clanking by would fool anyone looking at the overall scene, not just the rivets.........Depends what you are trying to achieve I guess.

And just to put this in context, I almost ordered a couple of wagons to see what they were like, as they looked the muts nuts at first glance from the advertising. It was only through reading reviews and discussions like the above from those with more experience / less impulsive that made me realise I should look much closer and not take anything for granted.

So I went instead for some Lionheart wagons, and they even supplied them with Scale7 wheelsets at no extra cost - you won't get better fitting brake gear than that set-up! :thumbs:
 

mickoo

Western Thunderer
I am struck by the parallels here as to the exact same discussions in my (ex) flight sim business and I mean exact almost word for word, take out 16 tonner and add (insert aircraft of your choice), so I'm bravely going to add the perspective of the producer of 'low cost toys' and run the gauntlet of disapproval.

You see there are basically three levels of model, base model, intermediate and advanced, as a publisher you have to decide which market you are going to aim for, the base model is stack em high, sell them cheap no bells no whistles errors here and there (not through design, but by lack of reference.....that always turned up three days after publication). The intermediate level obviously has more detail and more accuracy but a higher cost and the advanced, well, obvious really.

We sold in the basic to intermediate market and I'll be frank we made a lot of money, around 80% of our customers were youngsters or new people into the 'scene' wanting something cheap to test the waters before splashing out £50-60 on an uber detailed model from the top end of the market, most came back and bought more, many moved on, but all were satisfied customers to a large extent.

The issues came when peole started to demand uber detail for base model prices, or worse, uber model producers sneering down at base model producers, our models are better blah blah, fine, go away and leave us alone to do what we think is best, do not try and tell us that your way is the only way.
Another frequent criticism leveled was 'if only they had tried a little harder', now that has been posted here and I raise this not as a slight at the original author in the slightest but as an indication that it has been said elsewhere. This is a valid point, but how much harder do you try, how much more do you add? There does come a cut off point and to be frank, you cannot please all the people all the time I'm sad to say, much as we wanted to we never could.

Anyway to cut a very long story short, models did advance and we moved to the upper end of the intermediate market, sales dropped, prices went up and customers were still demanding more, however the real danger was that there were no base models anymore and over a good few years the number of 'simmers' began to drop and sales were down through out the whole community, in short, no new blood was being injected into the market place. Ironically near the end (when I retired) there was a growing call for the good old days, simpler models at lower prices, what's called kick the tyres and light the fires models, sadly it wont ever happen, why, tribal acceptance, no producer now would dare lower standards to try and attract new business.

So back to Dapol, may I respectfully suggest that the argument is not the number of faults, but, is it worth what they are charging? Clearly they are aiming at a lower market than most expect here and I'd suggest they are aiming at perhaps the garden market where simple details like brake block alignment (would the blocks be better aligned in S7?) isnt really an issue. Dapol clearly know where their market stratergy is and it will be working for them (they are still in business) and trying to force them to a higher level will have several effects, there will be no lower market for people to get entrapped, their products will cost more and perhaps only be marginally better and finally there will still be calls for more detail and if they had just tried a little harder.

At the end of the day we all have the choice to buy or walk by and there is a need for models to be made right through the whole spectrum of details and fidelity, the business needs it and so does then community to grow and propser.

Finally, would I buy them? Depends on their prospective use, if I had a large garden railway and they had the companies I wanted and I was happy with the cost, then yes I would buy, one could argue that I'm only continuing to support :shit:models but that's a very subjective debate. If, on the other hand I had an exhibition or detailed depot, shunty plank, terminus, goods yard etc where you get up close, then no I wouldn't purchase them, I would go for a more detailed model from another supplier.
If nothing else at least Dapol are giving us a choice and that can only be good for everyone. I do think we should strive for better, but we must also accept and support those who are quite happy at the simpler end of the spectrum, we all started there at some point, be it N, OO or O gauge and it would be wrong of us to deny that pleasure for future generations IMHO.

I suspect I'll now have to watch out for the uber modellers assassins at Telford or Sudbury LOL.

Kindest, Mick from his deepest Viking bunker LOL.
 

ceejaydee

Western Thunderer
As someone who is not really in the market for wagons such as these I would imagine that at the comparable cost for an unbuilt and unpainted wagon kit they would represent good value for money to those who do not have the skill or time to acquire wagons by other means.

O Gauge is a strange scale with a great but arguably relatively recent tradition of high accuracy and exacting standards but given the increasing interest in the past few years there was always going to be a market for cost effective rtr models; cost effective for both the manufacturer and the consumer.
Going back to the last sentence I said relatively recent because in the overall scheme of things the impressionistic modelling of Crewchester, The South British Railway and similar layouts is not that long ago where converted rtr models sat happily alongside scratchbuilt prototype and freelance stock.
Would most people even give these a second glance if they trundled by in a train on say Pete Waterman's layout with an appropriate loco at the front mixed in with other stock?

So generally these won't be of interest to the F/S modeller who wants great accuracy from his models or to the S7 modeller who wants a few quickie conversions to bolster their stock roster but I am sure that there are plenty of folks who want a few more wagons that look good will buy in quantity. Certainly if I had a large roundy or a garden line in O then a few of these would be welcome if they suited the period.
Skytrex do well in the scale and their range suits some.

This is neither a defence of the errors in the model or a criticism of those who have commented before.
I too am not sure why when making a new model fundamental errors creep in as when starting from scratch is is surely just as easy to get it right as it is to get it nearly right which amounts to it being wrong.

I don't perceive myself a 'we've never had it so good' type of bloke but in the overall scheme of things these wagons, despite their flaws will continue to bolster interest in the larger gauge and make it more accessible to those moving up (or down) and some may be happy to stick with rtr and some may move on to kit building.

As this thread has five pages of discussion/debate before my little bit I'm certain that I will have touched on and possibly echoed previous comments but I have read and respect all views: however if I'd been waiting for these wagons as accurate models for my own layout then I would have very possibly been disappointed.

All in all a very interesting thread :thumbs:
 

Colin M

Western Thunderer
I'm bravely going to add the perspective of the producer of 'low cost toys' and run the gauntlet of disapproval...
...however the real danger was that there were no base models anymore and over a good few years the number of 'simmers' began to drop and sales were down through out the whole community...

Great post! :thumbs:

I was in the Tower models shop last week and I took a look at the Dapol wagon. Not my period, but I thought it was a nice, attractive model for £30. When they bring out the forthcoming modern speedlink wagons I've no doubt I will buy them and enjoy detailing them further.

I'm sure Dapol have got it right; there must be a significant market for low cost RTR in O gauge to suit newcomers to the hobby. I bet most purchasers don't know, or care, that the corners were not mitred on the real thing and are perfectly happy with them.

At the end of the day, for most people, the choice of whether to move up to O guage is affected by the costs. You just have to look at how many O gauge'rs start with a Big Big hymek and Lima Mk1's. The success of the Hornby Railroad range in OO is clear proof that the majority market want value over ultra detail.

I do fear how the experienced modelling community will judge the 08 when it arrives. It's £200. It might include some detail compromises.

We need to embrace suppliers for all levels of modellers, ranging from complete beginners, right through to the ultra rivet counters.


Colin
 

Osgood

Western Thunderer
Mick the Dane - great points there.

My only thought is that flight sim quality surely depends on intensive design input and this must be the major cost. With a railway wagon model, the costs are split between design, tooling, materials, and manufacture (and to a lesser extent distribution).

Ideally the process should start with a 100% accurate drawing - this would then be worked up into a design which can be economically manufactured (this is where errors will inevitably start to creep in, it has to be a compromise e.g. limitations of moulding process). Further compromises may be made in order to accommodate a greater range of models from same components - fair enough I guess.

My grouse is that certain errors in this product are fundamental dimensions which do not affect cost of manufacture. All other errors will be due to compromises for tooling / manufacture / cost saving, which must be excusable given the modest cost of the model.

I mean how difficult is it to get hold of a reasonably accurate drawing? I have a file full of wonderful 7mm wagon drawings carefully torn from old modelling mags - my problem is I'm so incompetent as a modeller I don't know what to do with them!:D
 
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