New Dapol O Gauge Wagons

[mickoo]

Osgood, nearly LOL, flight sim models are a little more complex than some might understand (read everyone who does not develope them LOL). In simple terms you have several key areas :-

The mesh, the physical model you see in the game, accurate drawings are required but often difficult to procur, military stuff (our main stream of models) tends to be quite secretive in that aspect LOL.

The skin, never liked that term, but basically the paint on the aircraft, inside and outside.

The FDE, Flight Dynamics Envelope, how the thing flies and feels, that can vary from ultra realism to it flies 'like' I think the real thing would, again real world data is very hard to come by in the military scene, especially if modern, but uber detail FDE data can be collected very easily for civil (tube liners), typically detailed tube liners (and I have a few purchases myself) take as long to start the engines and push back as the real thing, some develpers add a secret quick start button, most military stuff was simply battery on, APU on, bus on, fuel on, engine start, full after burner and punch holes in the clouds, land, turn off, go cook supper for the wife and kids. These days military stuff is getting closer to tube liners and very high end.

Cockpit fidelity, or systems depth, click the wipers switch and in low budget models it just goes 'click', in high end models the wipers move and really high end, they clear water off the screen.

All of these take an inordinate amount of time, the biggest project I ever did was the Seaking helicopter and we threw in 12 models with 16 skins, now to most here a Seaking is a Seaking, but noooo, nothing could be further from the truth, theres airframe changes (Westland - Sikorsky), cockpit layouts and local lumps and bumps so one model does not suit all, unlike Dapol we (I) went for 12 distinct models, muppet, why?
Well we didn't include this and that version or I can't paint (the community is allowed to repaint the models as they see fit and offer the skins for free to others) this variant because you haven't added that airframe to the package, blah blah blah, in the end you just get hammered from pillar to post and all for a virtual model that cost £18! What we lost in fidelity and high end systems we made up for in variants and numbers of bespoke models in the package, but it was never good enough <sigh>.

Back to Dapol, yes errors like basic dimensions should not happen, as noted above it's not a military grade item so data should be 'relatively' easy to procure and check.
Having said that, I cannot ever recall taking a measure to any RTR model I've ever had and if one were to use Dapols 16T wagons in the garden you probably would not notice, so long as it looked right, conversely I'm current begining to model in S7 and an error of 0.1mm would drive me nuts .

It is what it is and they are what they are, they will upset many and I suspect make many others very happy, as an aside I have a friend who models in Gauge 1 live steam, lovely 4F he has but not a rivet on it, I asked him why no rivet detail or 'smaller' pipework etc, his reply in an astonished tone was "it's a working live steam model, not a toy" that was an interesting concept and one I cannot argue with, to him it was the driving and steaming which ticked his boxes and I'm sure if Dapol made the 16t in that scale he'd have a whole rake of them behind his 4F and be as happy as a pig in . Model railways what ever scale mean a lot of different things to a great many people.

 

[Jordan]

You see there are basically three levels of model, base model, intermediate and advanced,.....

We sold in the basic to intermediate market...

I fully accept that and agree with what you say, but I'd assume your customers also knew which end of the market you were aiming at? When, as Adrian points out, Dapol put "Authentic Scale Model" on the box of these wagons, it does rather look like they are trying to aim a base level model at the two upper levels...?

The issues came when people started to demand uber detail for base model prices,...

Absolutely... although it's not a can of worms I particularly want to re-open, I do think there's a market for base level models (albeit with the fundamental bits accurate!), and that such are now around in 7mm scale... but they are not yet at base level prices - Skytrex locos, anyone??

or worse, uber model producers sneering down at base model producers, ...

not going there......

 

[SteveO]

I like your argument, Mick, very well thought out and I like the comparisons to your old company.

One thing springs to mind about Triang in the 60s: They catered for the mass, lower, end of the market - but even they managed to produce a couple locos (4F and Hymek) which are fairly to scale. Even now the Hymek is quite sought after for conversion into a fairly accurate scale model with the addition of a few detail parts. Without replacing every single component, apart from maybe the couplings as Adrian mentioned, you can't say that about the Dapol wagons.

However, as we can all tell by the sales figures, models like this have a market and will continue to do so. Something for everybody's budget is far better than elitism.

 

[Adrian B.Swain]

Hi All, I am still surprised that so many contributors still think that the standard set by Dapol is acceptable.
Osgood , above, argues that compromises may have to be made to allow use of parts in other models but this
means that all future models using fundamentally inaccurate components will necessarily also be incorrect !
If Lionheart can produce models of the same prototypes at only marginally higher prices (RRP £35 for some)
this surely indicates that Dapol could and should have got somewhere near the same standard. It seems very
likely, and rumours confirm this, that we will see a multitude of liveries on these wagons and they may use the
buffers and axlebox/brakegear mouldings on different designs where more or LESS suitable.
My first 7mm kit patterns were very carefully researched and with only handtools and a minidrill and the
occasional use of a Unimat lathe I made patterns for such standard items as buffers, axleguards and
brakegear which are still on sale today after about 35 years and which in many cases have not yet been
equalled, let alone improved upon, even now. What I would have given to have had the facilities available to
Dapol. I knew that from the word go I had to make components to as high a standard as I could, because
many of them would be reused time and time again on different prototypes. If a kitchen table modeller
(it's actually a bedside bench) can do the research, design, pattern making and every other stage, single
handedly, there is no excuse whatsoever for the gross errors by Dapol.
Perhaps, Osgood, you should send your drawings to Dapol but do warn them that even official GAs
can trap the unwary into making serious mistakes. If you don't, try scratch building one of the wagons,
that's how I started when another kit manufacturer said " If you want a kit of that tram, make the
patterns yourself. You have seen my patterns and if I can do it you can do it too"
Don't be frightened,getting started is the greatest hurdle you will come up against in the Grand National
of life.
Don't settle for second best or even lower standards when top quality is well within reach Adrian

 

[Dikitriki]

I think that a substantial part of the problem I have with this is that it's Dapol. I mean, that's a respected mainstream name, making a big effort to get it right in 4mm, so I would expect a whole lot more from them. Look at the RMweb thread on the West Country and rebuilt West Country. There is significant interaction between Dapol Dave and knowledgeable posters, and you can see how the CAD/CAMs have developed to the great benefit of the models.

We had none of that with the 7mm wagons. Does it somehow not matter in 7mm, and we should be grateful for any crumbs? Personally, I think Dapol should be rather disappointed to have something so ill-researched in their product range.

Richard

 

[Dog Star]

... Look at the RMweb thread on the West Country and rebuilt West Country. There is significant interaction between Dapol Dave and knowledgeable posters, and you can see how the CAD/CAMs have developed to the great benefit of the models.

We had none of that with the 7mm wagons. Does it somehow not matter in 7mm, and we should be grateful for any crumbs? Personally, I think Dapol should be rather disappointed to have something so ill-researched in their product range.

I do agree with your thoughts on this matter and to Richard's comment I shall add the aspect to which I alluded earlier in this thread - there has been no objective review of the product in the model press (possibly the most influential medium for the majority of modellers of the UK railway scene) and hence Dapol has no yardstick against which to improve the product.

regards, Graham

 

[dilbert]

I think that a substantial part of the problem I have with this is that it's Dapol. I mean, that's a respected mainstream name, making a big effort to get it right in 4mm, so I would expect a whole lot more from them. Look at the RMweb thread on the West Country and rebuilt West Country. There is significant interaction between Dapol Dave and knowledgeable posters, and you can see how the CAD/CAMs have developed to the great benefit of the models.

We had none of that with the 7mm wagons. Does it somehow not matter in 7mm, and we should be grateful for any crumbs? Personally, I think Dapol should be rather disappointed to have something so ill-researched in their product range.

Richard

I think that you have nailed the base problem... in that the comments made on RMweb re. the 7mm wagons have not been addressed on that forum by Dapol - and yet the overall impression given is that platform to put to bed answers to all comments, made was established... most strange in a way.

Linked to this, I was reading thru the G0G Gazette for 2012 and both the May and August publications give some column inches in the Trade News section to the Dapol 7mm PO wagons. My expectation (which may be unjustified) is that the Feb 2013 edition of the Gazette will have a review of these items, given that Dapol do seriously intend to enter the 7mm RTR market.

If that is the case, then Dapol will also have the opportunity to reply to the review prior to publication - which I think is an honourable approach.

The salient point is that different critiques will enable whomever is interested in a balanced viewpoint of what to expect... dilbert

 

[Pennine MC]

. I bet most purchasers don't know, or care, that the corners were not mitred on the real thing and are perfectly happy with them.

Not sure if this is picking up on my comment Colin, so dont take it as argumentative.

What I mentioned was not about corners being mitred, but that the corner plate simply isnt anything of the sort. It has to be in an L section so that it can be bolted to the side and the end, and hence hold them together; a real wagon built like Dapol's would fall apart. This is something that is just so, sooo basic - would you put a shelf up with two separate pieces of metal at right angles - no, you'd use a one-piece bracket formed in an L shape. Would anyone buy a steam loco without coupling rods, or track without chairs? - because it really is *that* basic.

I fully accept that many purchasers will have lower expectations and I'm cool with that, but if someone has such a shallow understanding of how a real railway vehicle is put together, tbph I'm left wondering how they even have enough understanding to know they want to model a railway. Maybe it's as Adrian suggested; it has a wheel at each corner and that's enough...

However, as we can all tell by the sales figures, models like this have a market and will continue to do so. Something for everybody's budget is far better than elitism.

Again only using this comment to illustrate a wider theme, one of the recurring themes 'elsewhere' is the trite observation that you cant have perfection at pocket money prices. It's a straw man argument though that's often trotted out to excuse the inexcusable. I dont think any regular commentator I know on RTR standards would *expect* perfection, but there's a difference between aiming for it and falling short, and not even trying.

There is a middle ground, full of models that are somewhere between adequate and superb, that can help the finescaler by 'bulking out' his fleet, with or without selective improvement, and that can still satisfy the more casual purchaser without breaking the bank. It's where the bulk of RTR does lie, at least in 4mm - it doesnt have to be 'either/or'. Production compromises are one thing, blatant errors are another. Though I've no love for Dapol, I do know they are capable of far better than this.

 

[mickoo]

There's some strange men lurking in the bushes at the bottom of my garden, uber detail assassins?

I am uncomfortable at some of the tones above and their implications, I've seen threads like this before many times mature and turn into something quite impolite, so fearing for my well being from the gathering uber assassins I'm going to retire to the shallow end of the pool with the rest of us bodgers and make doers

 

[westernfan]

No comment , well just one the punters will vote with their wallets.

 

[Colin M]

Not sure if this is picking up on my comment Colin, so dont take it as argumentative.

Ian, No offence taken or intended. It was purely coincidence. I picked one fault at random just to illustrate my point. It would have worked just the same if I'd have quoted the "half on/half off" brake lever or any of the other issues that have been pointed out instead.


On a more general note, I think it's great that everyone has different views! It's what makes the world go round.

The key to prevent debate turning into a slanging match is for us all to remember that whatever our view, it is just that, a view! We all have different perspectives, so we have different opinions and want different things. No one is right or wrong, it's just an opinion based on our own personal level of knowledge, experience and circumstances.

It's the choices we make with our wallets that really influence the future.

Colin

 

[Jack]

On a more general note, I think it's great that everyone has different views! It's what makes the world go round.

I hate to pick you up on a detail error here, but physics doesn't work like that ...

 

[Jordan]

There's some strange men lurking in the bushes at the bottom of my garden, uber detail assassins?

I am uncomfortable at some of the tones above and their implications, I've seen threads like this before many times mature and turn into something quite impolite, so fearing for my well being from the gathering uber assassins I'm going to retire to the shallow end of the pool with the rest of us bodgers and make doers

You're quite safe, Mick, any attempts at "uber assassination" will be dealt with accordingly.

Hi All, I am still surprised that so many contributors still think that the standard set by Dapol is acceptable.

Please be careful - I'm not entirely sure that anyone on here has actually said that they think it's acceptable; just that Dapol obviously think it is, and other people might..... neither has there been any suggestion that everyone else should find it acceptable as well.

If Lionheart can produce models of the same prototypes at only marginally higher prices (RRP £35 for some)
this surely indicates that Dapol could and should have got somewhere near the same standard.

This is similar to what I said about Skytrex locos - they have done some dire models but at prices close to Heljan - who as we know are also far from perfect, but a lot better than Skytrex. I once asked at the Skytrex stand if they were going to re-master the mold for their 37, and the gist of their reply was "why, what's wrong with our 37..?" That is another source of frustration with Dapol here - they aren't even acknowledging that the wagons are so bad - which seems to go utterly contrary to how keen they are to get 4mm stuff right.

 

[BrushType4]

Out of interest. has anyone here bought a Skytrex loco? To protect the guilty you can say you have a 'friend' that bought one...

 

[Phill Dyson]

Out of interest. has anyone here bought a Skytrex loco? To protect the guilty you can say you have a 'friend' that bought one...

Has anyone anywhere actually bought one ?.......the odd one surfaces on ebay, but apart from that I have only ever seen them on the Skytrex stand at shows .

 

[Jordan]

Out of interest. has anyone here bought a Skytrex loco? To protect the guilty you can say you have a 'friend' that bought one...

My local model shop had a Class 37 back when they first came out. The owner told me he was amazed when someone actually did buy it!! I haven't seen any more in stock....

 

[Adrian B.Swain]

Hi All again, especially Jordan, with reference to your comment about how keen Dapol are to get their 4mm
models correct. I fear you may be labouring under something of a delusion ! A few years back, late Sunday
afternoon,when things get quiet at the Warley show I skived off my stand to look at the, then not released,
GWR Fruit D.
I had a use for one as I had decided rebuilding the Hornby Dublo model was not worth the effort and buying
a Dapol one would save building the Parkside kit. It looked good in its glass showcase so I politely asked if
the model was a new chassis with the old Dublo body. The representative reacted as if I had spat in his face
and retorted something like "what sort of firm do you think we are" and walked away. I recently bought
one on ebay as I had not seen any adverse comments about it, only to find that the body was not only the
same incorrect width (about 2mm) as the Dublo version but now had very serious errors on the sides which
were not present on the old model, the chassis is about 3.5mm too wide and the Oleo buffers are, of course,
totally wrong for the GW variant and most BR versions I have pictures of. Guess who wishes they had spent
their money on a kit instead.
Since a large part of the Dapol range is also based on Hornby Dublo bodies and one or two new standard
underframes, this means that the majority of the models will be too wide and/or the wrong length,
wheelbase and brakegear and in many cases the livery is probably completely inappropriate.
I think this all seems a bit familiar, don't you?? Has anybody else checked Dapol 4mm models since
some of you must either have been, or still are, 4mm modellers??. Have you seen any adverse reviews ??
The pity is there is no widely available "Which" type magazine, few people look at forums and the average
magazine review will never give a major manufacturer with a major advertising budget anything other than
a mild rebuke, more often than not for one of the least important faults. 'Twas ever thus, everything
in the garden may appear rosy but the blight is rampant. Adrian

 

[Dog Star]

So what do we, as enlightened modellers with a desire for accuracy, do to encourage a manufacturer to improve the offering? My guess is that, no matter how much we might agree on the deficiences, few main stream manufacturers are likely to read our threads and even fewer are going to respond positively.

How about we each buy one example of the same wagon from the same source... and then return the model for a full refund citing reasons why the model is (in our opinions) not an "accurate scale model"?

regards, Graham

 

[Phill Dyson]

Hi All again, especially Jordan, with reference to your comment about how keen Dapol are to get their 4mm
models correct.

They have to be fair done a very good job of the recent Western & Class 22 models in 4mm.

Phill

 

[Pennine MC]

The representative reacted as if I had spat in his face and retorted something like "what sort of firm do you think we are" and walked away.

I wonder who that could have been...

Since a large part of the Dapol range is also based on Hornby Dublo bodies and one or two new standard
underframes, this means that the majority of the models will be too wide and/or the wrong length,
wheelbase and brakegear and in many cases the livery is probably completely inappropriate.
I think this all seems a bit familiar, don't you?? Has anybody else checked Dapol 4mm models since some of you must either have been, or still are, 4mm modellers??.

I'm fairly familiar with their wagon range. Off the top of my head and not wanting to bore anybody, they have:

SR and LMS-design/BR-built vanfits, from the 1970s Airfix range; tolerable to good

'Felix Pole' type 21T steel mineral and a 9-plank equivalent, again ex-Airfix; quite nice

Gunpowder van ex-Dublo; nice enough mouldings but overlength.

5-plank high goods and LNER/BR pattern steel equivalent ex-Dublo; too tall in the body and hence the proportions look awful next to a correct high goods.

20T grain hopper, Presflo and GW/BR type cattle van ex-Dublo; dimensionally compromised

16T mineral ex-Dublo; the usual 4mm overlength due to fitting onto a merchandise wagon chassis

24T Chas Roberts- type iron ore hopper; the old 1970s Mainline model. Overlength but characterful.

BR vanfit ex-Dublo; catches the character but roof profile is incorrect. Oddly the rather better David Boyle era BR van doesnt seem to have been perpetuated.

BR banana van ex-Dublo; for my money, easily the nicest of the old 'Super Detail' series

SR CCT ex-Dublo; again a nice moulding for its time

'Blue Spot' type fish van ex-Dublo; not bad but like many RTR wagons, overwidth.

Technically, some or all of the above could be new tooling, but it matters little since they look all-but identical to the originals above the solebar. Most of the 10ft wb stuff runs on a derivative of the 1977 Airfix chassis.

Milk tanks; their own tooling from around 2006. Probably better than the Lima models, but not by much.

Grampus; their own tooling, not bad, but a long way from the best.

4-plank 'goods'; again their own tooling, I really have no idea what it was based on. I think there's a 7- and 8-plank as well but all of these seem to be just canvasses for PO liveries. In fact that could be said for much of the traditional wagon range, but to be fair, it was Wrenn in the '70s that set that ball in motion.

They also do some modern airbraked wagons. I know little about them other than the VTG telescopic hood, which I have, but I think those are well enough regarded.

They have to be fair done a very good job of the recent Western & Class 22 models in 4mm.

And this is the rub. The Beattie well tank and the Modelrail Sentinel are also well thought of - as I already said, they can produce some stunning models when they want to, but as the examples above show, there are some appalling old clunkers serving as 'cash cows' - and they ain't cheap either. Hornby deservedly get a lot of flak for the inconsistencies in standards in their range and for the lack of clarity over what 'Railroad' actually means - Dapol's range, though obviously smaller, is just as inconsistent, but it's something that never gets mentioned. Not that you'd get much of a reception floating that idea on Rmweb, of course...