New Dapol O Gauge Wagons

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jordan

Mid-Western Thunderer
Hi All again, especially Jordan, with reference to your comment about how keen Dapol are to get their 4mm models correct. I fear you may be labouring under something of a delusion !
I'm not labouring under anything, especially in 4mm scale.... I was only thinking of their latest diesels, as Phill says, the Class 22 & Western, which is later than
A few years back,....
...................................................................................................................................................
To be honest, this thread is starting to go in circles as far as I can tell, and having established that a) these Dapol 7mm wagons are seriously flawed, and b) no-one on this Forum has actually said that is acceptable, and c) people are free to buy them or leave them on shop shelves as they see fit; it has served it's purpose.

Oh, just one other thing..... the amount of money spent ('wasted') by people on these now sold-out wagons; I have seen a figure of around £70,000 quoted..... would all of that money really have been spent on 7mm wagon kits instead..? Or is much of it actually diverted from the 4mm market on impulse purchases, by those who might fancy a change to something larger..?
 

Pennine MC

Western Thunderer
To be honest, this thread is starting to go in circles as far as I can tell, and [snip] has served it's purpose.

And yet, in the same post as you say this, you pose another question:

Oh, just one other thing..... the amount of money spent ('wasted') by people on these now sold-out wagons; I have seen a figure of around £70,000 quoted..... would all of that money really have been spent on 7mm wagon kits instead..? Or is much of it actually diverted from the 4mm market on impulse purchases, by those who might fancy a change to something larger..?

Lock it if you will J, I for one cant stop you. But for many, many reasons, I would suggest that to do so would be a very misguided course of action.
 

BrushType4

Western Thunderer
Oh, just one other thing..... the amount of money spent ('wasted') by people on these now sold-out wagons; I have seen a figure of around £70,000 quoted..... would all of that money really have been spent on 7mm wagon kits instead..? Or is much of it actually diverted from the 4mm market on impulse purchases, by those who might fancy a change to something larger..?

I hope it is those that fancy a change as with luck they will be hooked on the scale and will soon start to demand better RTR and indulge in building kits. :)
 

djparkins

Western Thunderer
Lock it if you will J, I for one cant stop you. But for many, many reasons, I would suggest that to do so would be a very misguided course of action.

Yes - Please Jordan - do not lock this thread! It is one of the most engaging we have had and has obviously attracted a lot of interest and animated many members on both sides of the argument, so to speak - and this can only be a good thing.

Anyway - where would be be without Adrian's posts to entertain us???!!! - I for one look forward to his next instalment!

Regards,

DJP
 

PMP

Western Thunderer
ABS
Has anybody else checked Dapol 4mm models since some of you must either have been, or still are, 4mm modellers??. Have you seen any adverse reviews ??

As a predominantly 4mm modeller I have bought and reviewed their 4mm LMS signals which appeared in Railway Modeller. I also bought a 4mm GWR version to see if they were consistant. My review was targetted towards the core readership, (the average enthusiast/Clapham Omnibus Man COM) and suitability for purpose, which was run pretty much as written. They are marketed as OO Scale signals. In esscence all the critical dimensions are wrong on both the starter signals and assuming they use the same components for the distant, those are incorrect too. As often with a RTR model the dimensions are frustratingly wrong, bearing in mind how easy it is to access standard prototypical data, e.g. Warburtons LMS signalling book. They could have been closer to scale, they make N gauge working LED lit semaphore signals, so the same technology works in mass produced signals in a smaller size. However they work well and are robust enough for normal layout use, and are the only high street available ready to use signals, excepting Hornby's Triang era models. According to assorted shopkeeping MrBenns, they have sold well. Had the review been for MRJ it would have said much the same thing, but we know the readership (generally) would look at these more critically than COM.
My review, boiled down to basics :
They're not to scale and the dimensions are wrong. Cosmetic lever weights could be added to improve the appearance.
They're well designed and made, LED lit, well decorated, robust, and work as advertised.
They are electrically operated with a simple, though not ideal switch, and there are no DCC fitting guides or indications of DCC compatability
They are well priced, RTR, working and the only such signals on the market, and will do well.
So the review was balanced between accuracy, functionality, and market suitability. None of the other mags as far as I know have reviewed them as a product in their own right, if they do it'll be interesting to see their take on them. In mind of the above the lattice and SR Rail types will be very interesting to see how close they get, I'm not hopefull, logically, assuming they'll use existing components will already mean arm and lamp positions will be incorrect. To make a robust 4mm lattice or rail post will mean using overscale components especially if plastic molded. If they are keeping the cost down then the challenge is all the greater to minimise assembly costs. None of the 7mm signals are out to date, but assuming they make the same errors, (I'd be surprised if they didn't if they are using the same data), they will still sell just as the open wagons have, because people who don't know/care will see them as an easy route. The OO signals could for me have been an easy RTR purchase, but because they are so far out that you can't correct them, Gibson and MSE will still be seeing me buy their product. We'll see the same with these wagons and anything else they (and others) produce, 'finescalers' will see if they are fit for purpose and use, adapt or discard, the COM will see them as an entry point to the scale and treat them as normal RTR but bigger . I took a more PMP'ist' look at the signals here http://albionyard.wordpress.com/2012/07/29/the-good-the-not-so-good-and-the-indifferent/ which says the same thing as has been outlined here, they're wrong. they're not for me because (frustratingly) they're wrong, they'll sell.
 

Adrian B.Swain

Active Member
Hi All I think we can now begin to see where Dapol's attitude to scale and authenticity has carried over from.
Pennine MC's fairly comprehensive, and totally justified, damnation of most of the 4mm range shows this. To
be fair much of that range is derived from pre-existing tooling, either Airfix/Mainline or Hornby Dublo/Wrenn,
One certainly hopes that they have not wasted money on making new duplicate tools, I was given to understand
that some tools had already been duplicated by Airfix, hence the apparently identical models in the current Hornby range. I suggest that Pennine MC has been over generous in his praise, or to be more precise, his lack of criticism for some items. Take a closer look at the supposed "Felix Pole" wagons which are not correct for most liveries they have carried. Only the recent Hornby "West Midlands joint Electricity Authority" and presumably the BR variants are, to my knowledge, authentic and. alas, neither Dapol nor Hornby have made any attempt to correct the axleguard tiebar error. It is 1mm too low and looks very odd on all the models which use it, steel opens, hoppers, tankers and 9 plank wagons all suffer this problem. This is difficult to cure as the plastic is the
non-stick variety so welding it back in the correct position is the option I chose but is very risky.
To Jordan's comment that perhaps lots of 4mm modellers have suddenly seen the light and bought these
wagons to get started in 7mm, I can only wish that he is right. My gut feeling is that most of this money
has been spent by existing 7mm modellers, depriving existing manufacturers of very significant and much
needed funds in this time of austerity. Maybe I should be pleased about their poor quality as it may deter
modellers, who are looking for quality models, to buy any more in the future. They may be cursing their
impatience when they survey the train of Dapol wagons they bought before waiting for reviews. I am
afraid damage has already been done, mainly to modellers but perhaps also to retailers who may already have
placed repeat orders only to find they cannot shift them as fast as they were expecting. It is certainly a great
shame that Dapol seem to be aiming many of their items directly at existing manufacturers but that is what
competition is all about, if you can destroy the opposition the market is all yours. Adrian
 

Jordan

Mid-Western Thunderer
And yet, in the same post as you say this, you pose another question:



Lock it if you will J, I for one cant stop you. But for many, many reasons, I would suggest that to do so would be a very misguided course of action.
By now it will be noted that I did not lock the thread.... where d'you think we are...?:D;)
My other 'question' was meant more as a 'point', really, but also I hoped it might turn the angle of the debate a bit; if 'debate' is the right word here - I'm not sure!?
Maybe I should be pleased about their poor quality as it may deter
modellers, who are looking for quality models, to buy any more in the future. They may be cursing their
impatience when they survey the train of Dapol wagons they bought before waiting for reviews. I am
afraid damage has already been done, mainly to modellers but perhaps also to retailers who may already have
placed repeat orders only to find they cannot shift them as fast as they were expecting......
I would not argue any of those points with you Adrian. I'll agree with you on the bit I've highlighted - some of us who placed pre-orders sight-unseen for the Class 08 will now be waiting to see it first, you can bet on that!!:rolleyes:
 

Osgood

Western Thunderer
It seems to be generally accepted that the issues surrounding the visual acceptability of RTR items start with the use of dimensions / drawings / data which results in the design standing no chance of being strictly to scale to start with, let alone any compromises required as a result of production / pricing limitations.

Sorry but I just don't understand how anyone would bother to design and supply RTR models without using the correct dimensions / drawings / data as the source material.

Inevitably the design of the tooling would probably be executed by someone unfamiliar with the item - be it a POW, a diesel locomotive or a signal. So does the customer just send to the tooling specialist a distant photo of a signal or wagon with a couple of key dimensions and say to them 'design me some tooling to make a representation of that'? Or do they go to the relatively small degree of trouble to find a reasonably accurate drawing from the railway / railway modelling press, or ask / pay a recognised authority on the subject to provide the necessary information? Come on - any of Ken Werrett's (and others') 7mm scale wagon drawings from the model railway press over the last 40 years would be a perfectly acceptable starting point for design of a RTR model.

As a result of a chance conversation with an RTR manufacturer who expressed frustration at the difficulty of obtaining accurate drawings for a particular wagon, I have just been able to supply them with a copy of a surviving works G.A. (an amazing coincidence that I had the very one needed). Now I am sure this manufacturer could produce a perfectly acceptable representation of that wagon from the odd 4mm or 7mm scale drawings which have appeared over the years, but I am now totally confident that - should it be considered economic to produce such a model and it ever becomes available - it will be 'spot on' :) And I will benefit from that in being able to use these wagons.

Now come on manufacturers - you only have to ask around - there are folk out there who would be only too pleased to provide the necessary data for you - NO EXCUSE! This isn't rocket science.
 

PMP

Western Thunderer
Osgood So does the customer just send to the tooling specialist a distant photo of a signal or wagon with a couple of key dimensions and say to them 'design me some tooling to make a representation of that'?

Well the Dapol signals meet the description 'representation of', I said in my review they 'were in the style of'. The signals were produced roughly the same time as the 4mm Beattie and Class 22. Both those locomotives had input from comissioners and feedback from forums and possibly elsewhere. I can't recall any similar consultation to have taken place regarding the signals which looks like they were an 'in house' research and development project. The fact that they have been welcomed open armed sends a message that stuff doesn't have to be accurate for COM
 

Adrian B.Swain

Active Member
Hi all Not sure I should stray onto the subject of signals but Dapol may well be planning some more in 7mm
( or whatever scale they actually use !!) I have been intimately involved with both 4mm and 7mm railbuilt
signals. The first occasion was just before Xmas, years ago,when a very well known manufacturer phoned up, rather desperate to ask for help. Not only had they announced them in the new catalogue but had promissed
samples would be on show at the major Toy Fair in a months time and stock ready for distribution immediately afterwards. They had discovered that injection moulded posts would look odd as the internal and external rail face would have to be flat to get them out of a simple 2 part mould in one piece. They had already tried another pattern maker and caster but things had not gone according to plan. They did not send me even a photo !! Fortunately a visit to a friend resulted in the loan of Pryors LSWR/SR book on signals. After further rapid discussion it was left to me to do more or less whatever I could, provided it was a certain height. My luck was
in as Hamworthy Junction station still had/has a full size example with a shortish post !! At this moment, or rather in a few minutes time I shall be casting another large batch. I fully admit the model is not absolutely accurate in every dimension as it would have been very fragile and almost impossible to cast and I did not have any S7 bullhead rail either. I don't think there has been a major outcry fortunately and bearing in mind the numbers sold I presume most modellers are happy. At least it is not in MY range so I can't be accused of
letting MY standards deteriorate !! Adrian
PS By working all Christmas week and after I was able to post samples shortly after New Year and about 2000 sets by early February!! abs
 

PMP

Western Thunderer
ABS
Hi all Not sure I should stray onto the subject of signals but Dapol may well be planning some more in 7mm

Dapol are producing, probably eaier to call them 'o gauge' rather than 7mm signals
http://www.tower-models.com/towermodels/ogauge/dapol/dapolsignals/index.htm
The images on the link are the OO gauge models, so not sure the images can be taken as a representation of what will be produced. Personally I hope they're not indicative of the O gauge products
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer

Jack

Member
Sorry but I just don't understand how anyone would bother to design and supply RTR models without using the correct dimensions / drawings / data as the source material.

It can be a communications issue with China ... translating old drawings, dimensioned in imperial, into something the Chinese factory can understand ain't always easy.

But yes, one would expect the production prototypes to be thoroughly scritinsed against drawings and photos!
 

Osgood

Western Thunderer
It can be a communications issue with China ... translating old drawings, dimensioned in imperial, into something the Chinese factory can understand ain't always easy......

Yes, that's a very fair point, Jack. I'm sure the task is fraught with difficulties and a lot more complex than we might imagine!
 

3 LINK

Western Thunderer
One thing that has come to my notice is that no one from Dapol has come forward to defend their products, you can't tell me that both the topic on here and the one from over there has not been brought to their attention.

It would not be so bad if they put their hands up and promised to do better in future, personally I think their silence means " if you do not like it, tough there are plenty of punters that don't know or do not care ".

Martyn.
 

Neil

Western Thunderer
I wonder if I could chip in with a few observations?

The first is that the wagons are what they are, and no amount of wailing and gnashing at the lost opportunity or failure to come up to the mark will make them go away.

Secondly that it's too early to judge whether their appearance in the marketplace is good or bad. We can say what we think of the situation right here and now, but two or three years hence? It may be that they demonstrate to Bachmann that the 7mm market is a worthwhile one, that even flawed products sell and sell well. It may be that they are so pants that Dapol decide to pull their socks up with future models, something they may not have done if the models were just a bit lacking.

Thirdly (and I'm aware that perhaps I'm beginning to sound like an apologist for Dapol) all the big rtr players have produced stinkers, ok some more than others, but they have all done it.
 

Pennine MC

Western Thunderer
I dont think you sound like an apologist Neil, from the point of view of a realist however, you make some good points. Many things in the RTR sector are changing in ways we wouldnt have foreseen a few years ago. I'm not sure about the 'no use crying over spilt milk' argument though - it may not change anything, but I dont see that making observations on what's come to pass is an invalid subject for debate. I wouldnt disagree that all the big manufacturers have stuffed up to some degree; Heljan are particularly frustrating because they continue to invite comment, and then fail to act on it. I think it's undeniable though that Dapol's range contains the most inconsistency in this respect. Looking at it cynically:

RTP signals - no real competition

7mm RTR wagons - no competition other than Skytrek

4mm cl. 22 - no competition, but as their entry into the 4mm diesel market, it had to make the grade

4mm Western - had to be significantly better than the competition

As I say, I'm being cynical, but I sense a pattern.
 

Neil

Western Thunderer
Can't disagree with any of that Ian. If I could explain the 'spilt milk' argument, I had in mind not that we shouldn't complain or debate the flaws, but that we can't change what is now, only what might be to come. I'm not sure if having this in mind will help us have any more influence, but gut instinct tells me that it's probably a good thing from a personal or forum perspective.

I had begun to wonder if competition had sharpened up Dapol's act in specific areas; seeing your analysis it begins to appear that it may be having a part to play. I'm afraid I don't know enough about the N gauge ranges of Dapol and Bachmann to work out if the competitive element is a factor here too.
 

adrian

Flying Squad
7mm RTR wagons - no competition other than Skytrek
I've never really looked at RTR stuff - so maybe I have missed something here. I'm curious why do you not count Lionheart as competition? They appear to be competitively priced, and the comments on the various threads seem to indicate they are accurate models.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top