New Dapol O Gauge Wagons

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Pennine MC

Western Thunderer
I've never really looked at RTR stuff - so maybe I have missed something here. I'm curious why do you not count Lionheart as competition? .

I'm not really sure Adrian; it's certainly not that I dont know about them as I mentioned them earlier in the thread. As I'm full of flu, it was probably just a simple aberration but as you've mentioned them, I suppose I should work them into my theory:) Which I can only do by postulating that not enough people *are* aware of them - Dapol obviously have the greater market presence, in the popular perception at least. And isnt that another of the dangers, that too many punters will simply be unaware of what's out there?
 

Adrian B.Swain

Active Member
Hi Osgood, That's the one I have bought although I shall buy some others. I spent a long sleepless night trying to
pick any holes in it!! Only a few very minor anomalies which are so small I would not count them and Dapol
have got them all wrong anyway and are not on my list of serious faults at all. As you say, the interior is the
only important negative and unless a totally different approach to tooling had been taken, as has been done by
Dapol to reduce the costs, it would be impossible to have this. Naturally kitchen table manufacturers do
score higher on some aspects but the big negative is you have to build and paint them to this standard. This
is beyond the skill of some modellers whilst others are put off by the mere mention of things like soldering irons
and airbrushes. If only they could psyche themselves up they might well be surprised at how much easier
it is than they imagined and, more importantly, how much more satisfaction they will get, even if the results
fall short initially. You only find out what you can do by trying! Adrian
 

Pennine MC

Western Thunderer
. This is beyond the skill of some modellers whilst others are put off by the mere mention of things like soldering irons and airbrushes. If only they could psyche themselves up they might well be surprised at how much easierit is than they imagined and, more importantly, how much more satisfaction they will get, even if the results fall short initially. You only find out what you can do by trying!

I sense this moving into a whole new can o' worms now:cool:

I agree entirely with the sentiment, but as to specific skills, the details differ from person to person. I'm a reluctant solderer (wiring only AFAIC, cos glue wont do that job:) ), and I havent used an airbrush for years (too much faffing about for the type of work I generally do). But there are plenty of skills that I do enjoy exercising, so I concentrate on those rather than my deficiencies or 'blind spots'.

But I think you've hit an important point in that the main reason preventing people trying new skills is fear - and I dont think it's really the fear of wasting a few quid on a model or materials, but a fear of failure. And that's something they have to address for themselves, no amount of discussions on forums will push through that particular barrier.

I understand that not everyone has the same aptitudes and that craft skills like woodwork and metalwork are perhaps not as instilled in people at an early age as they once were, but it does baffle me why someone comes into a creative hobby without wanting to use or develop some sort of skillset.

Something topical and that's sort-of relevant here is the S4 Society's recent marketing of Bachmann 25s, ready converted with Ultrascale wheels. Now I've no doubt that this, just like the Dapol wagons, will be hailed by some as a praiseworthy move to get people involved, but I have my doubts. Rewheeling a Bachmann diesel is one of the easiest things you can do to get started in finescale (other than perhaps putting EM or S4 wheels in a wagon kit - but some wont even try building a wagon kit...). But anyway, if they're put off by a simple hurdle like that, how will they cope with point construction or other practical skills?
 

Jordan

Mid-Western Thunderer
...... the big negative is you have to build and paint them to this standard. This is beyond the skill of some modellers whilst others are put off by the mere mention of things like soldering irons
and airbrushes. If only they could psyche themselves up they might well be surprised at how much easier
it is than they imagined and, more importantly, how much more satisfaction they will get, even if the results
fall short initially. You only find out what you can do by trying!
Whilst all that is true, there is one thing about R-T-R that I think die-hard kit enthusiasts miss, and that is the time that a good R-T-R model can save a person. It also depends on someone's main interests; some of us see the actual running of trains as the 'end', with the collecting of models to run more the 'means' to that end; whereas others will see the actual building of stuff as an end in itself, and might not be too bothered if they don't even have a layout to run stuff on.
This isn't meant to take issue with anything posted, or run the thread off in another direction; just a different point of view to why some modellers might not fully enter the kit-building side of the hobby....
 

AJC

Western Thunderer
It's a fair point Jordan - and I've mentioned this in my own wagon thread - so far as I'm concerned, when the RTR vehicle is something I actually want and is done to standard I'm happy with (or can bring up the the same easily) then fine: I never need build another 1/108 or Presflo (for example) in 4mm ever again and this probably frees up years of modelling time to make some more interesting things. At least the resulting 'specials' and 'one-offs' are more effectively hidden in the overall wagon stock.

I also share some of Adrian's frustration at the unwillingness of people to actually try to do things or to take the trouble to learn. I feel the latter quite keenly, but then I work in a university and experience this process daily. Seeing it in the context of railway modelling isn't surprising, but here it's arguably less important even if this doesn''t make it any less annoying.

Adam
 

Osgood

Western Thunderer
My reason for having an interest in good RTR is quite simple -
the time available for modelling in one's life is inversely proportional to the time spent procrastinating,
and I have one heck of a lot of catching up to do! dog walking.gif

My recent realisation (just in time) that decent quality RTR (fried rice Stannier 8F, Heljan Class 31 and some of the wagon fleet required) was available, has allowed me to expand my embryonic idea for an industrial line quite considerably to encompass the mainline aspect too - I would never have contemplated building those locos.

So if I don't subcontract some production out to the RTR boys then my embryonic project will have to be downsized. It so happens that I get far more excited about the oddball industrial type things which would of necessity have to be kit or scratch built, so if I can provide some of the other gear from boxes - but only if the quality is commensurate with that which I hope to achieve - then it will allow me to prioritise my time (and I have a whole new skill set to learn along the way too!).

Let's face it, in the larger finer scales we've never before been in a position to even consider buying RTR - why not make the best of the opportunities it may bring?
 

BrushType4

Western Thunderer
I believe the couplings on the Lionhearts could be better and should be instanter couplings on some of the variants they have produced. Just thought I'd mention that to keep the discussion balanced ;)
 

Adrian B.Swain

Active Member
Hi All Yes! but who else but Lionheart has Gedge coupling hooks with proper Gedge top links which fall
out and disappear if you hold the wagon upside down in the wrong way---- oh b----r ! Just as well a.b.s has
just introduced them as spare parts. Guess who wrote this post!!
 

Pennine MC

Western Thunderer
I believe the couplings on the Lionhearts could be better and should be instanter couplings on some of the variants they have produced. Just thought I'd mention that to keep the discussion balanced ;)

Picky picky:))

That one with the metric tare weight (dating it to post-1974) very probably would have acquired Instanters by that time. The 4-shoe vac braked ones they do should also have them, from the time of their VB conversion 1966-68.
 

Phill Dyson

Western Thunderer
RTR is certainly welcome at Withercombe & I would imagine most larger 7mm layouts. I simply don't have enough spare time to build all the stock I would like/need to run a reasonably realistic service on my line & find time to actually finish the line to a more complete stage.

I think RTR rolling stock will really come into it's own where repetition is required such as block trains & coach rakes.......I do enjoy kit building & would not resort to buying everything off the shelf, but if I'm honest batch building of coaches or minerals for reasonable length trains for my line is a chore I could live without.

The GWR wagons under discussion are of no use to me I'm afraid, but I would not buy them if they were within my chosen period with all the errors listed, I don't actually mind errors on cheap & cheerful stuff such as Lima/Triang as I can make reasonable models for my needs from these, but Dapol, Heljan, MTH & anyone else who wish to make RTR at what is to me premium price really should make it premium quality too.

Cheers Phill :)
 

Osgood

Western Thunderer
I believe the couplings on the Lionhearts could be better and should be instanter couplings on some of the variants they have produced. Just thought I'd mention that to keep the discussion balanced ;)

Not only that, but the main brake cross shaft must be seized solid :mad: - I damn near bent the brake lever trying to get the brakes to bite!
 

Adrian B.Swain

Active Member
Hi Osgood, Try the other side, the lever goes down easily all the way. Mind you the brakeshoes don't seem to
move very much. I bet Lionheart forgot to put the pins through the adjuster holes. Hmm! I wonder how that
can be improved in whitemetal. Actually 45 years ago I made a little injection moulding die to produce 6
different sorts of plastic brakeshoe with a view to making fully working brakegear. Having made one side I
decided (at that time when there were no decent wagons to fit them to ) that I might better spend my time
actually making the wagons first.!! Adrian
 

Simon

Flying Squad
Thanks very much for those brilliantly clear and informative photographs of the minerals Tony:thumbs:

My thoughts echo much of what has been said above. Whilst I'm utterly "sold" on the craft/making stuff angle, I'd happily use RTR if I could afford it and it moved my trainset dream a step or two closer to reality.

In G1/32 there is a whole lot less choice than in 7mm, and as I have also lumbered myself (completely voluntarily:rolleyes:) with the ScaleOne32 track and wheel malarkey, I effectively cannot purchase anything off the shelf that I can simply use.

That's not entirely stopped me getting a brass 03 (There was sort of one of those in my "script" and the price was very reasonable) but it has stopped me buying the Tower "Pug" which I think is a really good model but when you factor in changing or working on the wheels on top of the price then it just isn't sensible.

Not that being sensible is very high on my list of modelling priorities of course....

Now if only that very nice Mr Webster could be persuaded to produce some 1/32 mineral wagons to the same standard, I think he might find they were quite popular, I reckon I'd be good for half a dozen for starters.....

I can but hope and in the meantime will try and lay the tracks for them to run on:))

Simon
 

Adrian B.Swain

Active Member
Hi All Phil says the GW wagons are of no interest to him, just as well as the Dapol wagons do not represent
any real GW wagons. I presume we will shortly have the other BIG 4 liveries which will either be completely
wrong or at least seriously inaccurate and we already have high quality RTR from Lionheart if you don't wish
to build the excellent kits or buy RTR built kits.
It took me about 2-3 hours to list all the errors in the Dapol wagons, mainly because I type quite slowly
and had to check some of my facts to ensure there was nothing libellous ! It is not really a matter of having
an encyclopedic knowledge, but rather more on having 2 eyes ( 1 would probably be enough) and an accurate
drawing and a couple of decent photos. I presume there was no such quality control covering the Dapol
POW series.
When I started making wagon kits there were hardly any books on wagons, official drawing were almost
unobtainable and photos were poor quality in magazines etc. I had enormous amounts of help from the late
Jim Russell who allowed me to delve into the Glass Plate dungeon of (GW) photos and helped with his own
collection. Peter Tatlow (LNER) eventually realised that although I was (and still am) a pest, what I was doing was not a complete waste of his time. Similarly Bob Essery (LMS), the late Ray Chorley and the other (SR) Southern group authors. David Larkin assisted with (BR) information and I like to think these people and many others are/were all friends after a while ( especially after the odd freeby as a thank you!)
I find it quite astonishing that Dapol either have nobody to consult or worse still are pepared to forge
ahead with projects where they themselves must know they will be producing inaccurate models because
they are able to look at other products, already available, which they are intending to duplicate. To date
the only items they are making or have listed are all duplicates with the exception of the 5 plank which they must know is a complete fiction and unsurprisingly has not been produced by anyone else.
Interesting there has been no reply from Dapol on this forum and alas there is no review in the Gauge O Gazette for this month which means another 3 months before many 7mm modellers hear any adverse
comments, even assuming any are eventually printed. Since Dapol do not advertise in the Gazette there
should be no reason to gloss over the errors and one only hopes that the review is undertaken by a competent
modeller. In the meantime I have no doubt many more modellers will be persuaded to buy these models,
oblivious of their shortcomings. Regards Adrian
 

BrushType4

Western Thunderer
The new 4mm Dapol western does look nice though.. I'm not a western fan, but I'm sure if Dapol scale that one up to 7mm, it will give Heljan a run for their money.
 

Jordan

Mid-Western Thunderer
Interesting there has been no reply from Dapol on this forum
"Dapol Dave" probably has his hand's full "Over There"....:D where I note a similar silence on this particular subject.
I still wouldn't worry too much about who is to buy these models - as we have a fair number of active 7mm Modellers here, none of whom have stepped forward and said they've bought or are buying this model (apart from Adrian:))) , then it's others who must be, and if/when they do become aware of it's shortcomings, at least by then they'll have the taste for 7mm and hopefully want better models...
The new 4mm Dapol western does look nice though.. I'm not a western fan, but I'm sure if Dapol scale that one up to 7mm, it will give Heljan a run for their money.
As the Class 08 is up first, it remains to be seen what sort of job they do of that...:confused: :(

and as for "I'm not a western fan".... :eek: :eek: :eek: The Headmaster's Office for you, sonny boy - NOW!!! :rolleyes:


"not a western fan".... what a sad day for the Forum... oh the shame of it.... sad0141.gif sad0141.gif sad0141.gif
:D:D:D:D
 

Adrian B.Swain

Active Member
Hi all, Brush type 4's suggestion to duplicate the Heljan model is a really good idea. If all the RTR manufacturers
expend all their efforts on duplicating each other, as they sem to be doing, they will probably all go to the wall and
leave the market for the kit makers again. This is pretty much what happened when LIMA, MAINLINE and AIRFIX all tried to do each other down and all went out of business. This left Hornby, who had made little or
no effort to up their game, to pick up many of the tasty morsels for peanuts and Bachmann grabbed the rest.
The relative prices of 4mm ready to run have risen far faster than British made kits, even though the manufacturing base is now China, My first wagon kits in 4mm were between 3 & 4 times the price of an equivalent Hornby RTR wagon 40 years ago, today they are on a par if not slightly lower than an RTR wagon which in many cases is still well below the standard of kits. That's in spite of the fact that most kits are still waving the Union Jack
and keeping UK residents in work. Even Dapol who were so keen to wave the Welsh flag have apparently moved
most O gauge production to China, only doing short run specials partly in the UK. It remains to be seen if these
exteremely low prices for Dapol wagons can be sustained, especially if they find that they have to improve the
present quality to avoid criticism. Only time will tell, Adrian
 
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