7mm On Heather's Workbench - Multiple Maunsells

Discussion in 'Area 51' started by Heather Kay, 1 December 2017.

  1. Heather Kay

    Heather Kay Western Thunderer

    IMG_5287.JPG

    A quick session with some masking tape confirms to my mind the body parts fit the floor. Where the solebar gap comes from is anyone's guess. I did a quick measure on the other kits and they appear to have potentially the same issue. I'm not sure what, if anything, I may have done wrong!
     
    Colin Parks likes this.
  2. Threadmark: Running numbers and sets
    Pencarrow

    Pencarrow Western Thunderer

    Just had a quick look at the info I have on the Maunsell Coaches. All the Slaters kits are 9' wide / restriction 4 types of the first high-window variety (previous builds had lower height windows on the corridor side). The Slaters kit has alternate parts for the single vents above the lav window on early builds and the double vent on later builds - the window was the same. On this basis I think the coaches you can choose from are as follows:

    6 Compartment Brake Second - Diag D2102/D2110
    Note the only difference between the two diagram numbers relates to the internal door to the guards compartment. D2102 is hinged and D2110 sliding. Bizarre that this generated a different diagram number!

    92 coaches fit the kit made by Slaters:
    2754-2771 (18no / 1932 / 2 lav vents)
    2793-2805 (13no / 1932 / 2 lav vents)
    3732-3749 (18no / 1930 / 2 lav vents)
    3750-3758 (9no / 1932 / 2 lav vents)
    3771-3800 (30no / 1933 / 2 lav vents / D2110)
    4083-4086 (4no / 1929 / 1 lav vent)

    7 Compartment Composite - Diag 2301
    60 coaches fit the kit made by Slaters:
    5171-5172 (2no / 1929 / 1 lav vent)
    5634-5651 (18no / 1930 / 1 lav vent)
    5652-5691 (40no / 1932-33 / 2 lav vents)

    6 Compartment Brake Composite - Diag D2401

    62* coaches fit the kit made by Slaters:
    6575-6604 (30no / 1929-30 / 1 lav vent)
    6643-6674 (32no / 1930 / 1 lav vent)
    *Total number confused by some renumbering

    Hopefully this tallies with your own scribbled notes. Most of the above spent their lives either in sets or loose on the western section (ex LSWR), there are a few that wandered a bit more widely.

    Set Numbers
    A complex subject and none of the reference sources have the full history of all the set changes but the SEMG lists give the following appear to consist of the appropriate coaches from the above lists:
    203 London to Weymouth
    221, 222, 224 Waterloo to West of England
    223, 232 Plymouth to Portsmoth
    225-231, 387, 456 London Bognor Chichester
    241-250, 327-330 Western Section Local Services
    962 Eastern

    Gould gives much more detail and identifies that a few more of these sets moved eastwards.
    241-250, 237-330 are described as working Waterloo-Bournemouth-Weymouth services by 1951 but downgraded to local services by 1956.
    241 moved to the central section for Oxted and Redhill services by late 1959 and was joined by 327 in 1962.

    In the 1953 CWNs the allocations of the appropriate (to you) 3 coach sets were:
    3-sets B 221-32, 387, 456, 962 London-Margate-Ramsgate-Dover-East Grinsted-Tunbridge Wells West-Brighton-Lewes-Eastbourne
    3-sets M 203, 241-243, 245-250, 327-330 Waterloo-Bournemouth-Weymouth, Waterloo-Basingstoke-Salisbury, Waterloo-West of England

    In 1956 3-set 330 was damaged in an accident at Bournemouth West.

    By 1957 the vehicles from 3-set 223 were used in 9 coach set 455 and 3-set 456 was strengthened to 8 vehicles.

    In 1959 the following 3-sets were withdrawn: 225, 243, 328 and the following disbanded: 221, 231.

    In the 1960 CWNs the allocations of the appropriate (to you) 3 coach sets were:
    3-sets M 242, 244-250, 327-329 Western section local services
    3-sets T 203 Ramsgate-Hastings-Wolverhampton
    3-sets T 222, 224, 226-230, 232, 241, 387, 962 London-East Grinsted-Forest Row-Tunbridge Wells West-Brighton-Eastbourne, Reading South-Readhill-Tonbridge

    In 1961 the following 3-sets were withdrawn: 222, 224, 226-228, 456, 962

    In the 1961 CWNs the allocations of the appropriate (to you) 3 coach sets were:
    3-sets M 242, 244-250, 327-329 Western section local services
    3-sets T 203, 229, 230, 232, 239, 241, 387 London-East Grinsted-Forest Row-Tunbridge Wells West-Brighton-Eastbourne, Reading South-Readhill-Tonbridge-Brighton-Horsham

    In 1962 the remaining 3-sets were withdrawn: 203, 229, 230, 232, 241, 242, 244-250, 327, 329, 387.

    Loose Brake Composites
    Most of the D2401 coaches were allocated to sets but the following were loose at various stages:
    6578, 6582, loose from 11/59
    6588 loose from 6/62
    6595 loose from 4/61
    6598 loose from ?/62
    6601, 6604, 6645, 6647, 6663, 6665, 6671 loose from 6/62
    6643 loose from 4/61
    6644, 6/61 loose from 6/61
    6646, 6655* loose from 11/60
    6661 loose from 6/60
    6672 always loose
    6673 loose from 2/61
    *only in a set from 9/60 to 11/60

    So 6655 and 6672 appear to be the best bet.
     
    Last edited: 19 December 2017
  3. Heather Kay

    Heather Kay Western Thunderer

    Cor! Thanks Chris. I haven't cross-checked my scribbles, but some of that seems to match.

    Next job is really get that letter written for my client to confirm what he wants. Meanwhile, attention is turning to ends and sides.
     
    76043 likes this.
  4. Pencarrow

    Pencarrow Western Thunderer

    No problem Heather, i quite enjoy piecing together likely coach allocations and sets from the info available. I've been through the Gould book and have added a summary of the key 3 coach set allocations comprised of the variants in the Slaters kits. Individual coach numbers for a set can be provided if required.
     
    cmax likes this.
  5. Threadmark: Up on the roof
    Heather Kay

    Heather Kay Western Thunderer

    Well, that year went by fast, didn’t it? :oops:

    Now, where were we? Hmm, difficult one. I decided to spend a while reacquainting myself with the diagram 2401 high window brake composite I’d started all that time ago. The underframes are essentially complete, aside from some details hither and yon. The body sides had been joined together and tidied up, though no holes for handrails and whatnot drilled yet. The ends had been looked at, but no actual work done as yet to remove or update the moulded details. I finally learned which end of the coach had the brake end and which has the WC. I guess it wouldn’t hurt, then, to have a decko at the roof.

    669B1231-BDD4-4544-AB7B-C046AC222C91.jpeg

    I checked and double-checked the ventilator locations for this coach, and drilled the roof halves to take the white metal castings. Then I joined the halves together. The WC tank filler and mushroom vent were fitted. The roof halves have the rain strip moulded in, but they don’t match at the join. I elected to trim back a section at the join area, and fit a styrene strip to make good. Time to consider the lower strip, then.

    Slater's helpfully mould a fine line to help locate the strip material. To make sure I got it right, I consulted my references.

    2E719ED5-03C8-4FD3-887E-611E54D85364.jpeg

    Well, it seems coaches had the double rain strips when built. This feature survived into the late 1940s and early 1950s, but generally seems to have been removed as coaches went through the works. By the 1960s, the period I’m aiming at, it seems a strip below the destination board brackets but a little higher than originally fitted was pretty standard. Bother. What’s that thing I keep banging on about knowing your prototype? Yeah, that.

    Out with sharp implements and time was spent carefully carving, scraping and sanding off the moulded rain strip. A good job, then, I hadn’t fitted the vent castings at thus stage. On the next three, I’ll do this surgery before I join the halves and fit the WC gubbins.

    8C19987E-C691-4F66-870E-8D6801880089.jpeg

    As I mentioned, it looks like the lower strip was generally fitted slightly higher than the original one. It definitely appears to be closer to the board brackets. I found some 0.020in x 0.040in microstrip in my stocks, which seemed about right. Using the moulded fine line, I fitted the new strip above it, rather than below as Slater's suggest in their instructions.

    During photo peering, it also became obvious the original WC tank filler arrangements were changed to be closer to the BR Mk1 coach style. This allowed filling to take place from track or platform level. This means I will need to modify the single handrail to a pair of rails/filler pipes either side of the end of the coach. It’s actually quite interesting how modifications to these 1930s coaches seemed to be influenced to a great extent by the new builds of the Mk1s going through the workshops.

    Attention returns to the ends. I already plan to repurpose CPL alarm gear. I would dearly love to replace the moulded lighting connectors, but now JLTRT is no more, and Laurie doesn’t seem to be likely to stock detail castings any time soon, I’m a bit lost. Does Easy-Build have castings for these parts?

    The other thing still exercising my brain cell is how to attach the roof. I would still like access to the interior after completion. I think Steph suggested building the body and roof as one so it can dropped over the underframes and interior. I guess I’ll need to build up the innards and see how that might be done.

    Fun times.
     
    farnetti and Dog Star like this.
  6. Ian G

    Ian G Western Thunderer

    Do you have a photo of the lighting connectors? you could always try Westdale.

    Ian G
     
  7. Dog Star

    Dog Star Western Thunderer

    I think that Easybuild has the RCH lighting connectors... and we replaced them with something else! Unless mistaken, there is something similar in the CPL range, maybe cast on a sprue with a different part for company.
     
  8. Heather Kay

    Heather Kay Western Thunderer

    Good thinking.

    4366F0B6-D4AD-4ACC-B1DA-ECFFEE797017.jpeg

    These are what Slater's have provided me with. They’re a bit undernourished, and all the same.

    Another good thinks. I’ll have a peep.

    EDIT: I just found exactly what I was after on the CRT Kits site. Lost wax brass and everyfink.
     
    Last edited: 6 February 2019
    Ian G likes this.
  9. 2-Bil

    2-Bil Western Thunderer

    A number of images from the early 60s show double rain-strips retained though having said that maybe your client has a modified Set in mind?Great pity Slaters don't do an Open Second diagram.Been very much looking forward to these builds .....................Regards BW
     
    Last edited: 6 February 2019
  10. Threadmark: Bodywork
    Heather Kay

    Heather Kay Western Thunderer

    This is true. I didn’t do a scientific appraisal of my references, though the largest proportion seemed to only have the single strip. The set I’m working up has a two 6-compartment brake thirds, a 7-compartment compo, plus the brake compo I’m doing at the moment. I think, but will need to check my records, that a three-car set of brake compo+compo+brake third is intended, with the other brake third as an extra. As far as modifications, we’ve already settled that the WCs are as Mr Maunsell intended, rather than moved further out as happened on some coaches in the 1950s (to fit BR standard lavatory components, I believe).

    662F4AA1-9FD5-48F5-AF0D-DE9D5D5F5018.jpeg

    I seem to have accidentally ended up doing as Slater's intended. Magnets might be deployed for the roof fixing. Still pondering that.

    AA7EB11A-353F-4822-8BEE-3D245577FDA9.jpeg

    I had a notion that I could construct the compartments on the bench, and slot them into the body once detailed and painted.

    As ever, like a lot of builds, it all suddenly starts to come together rather quickly. It tends to catch me unawares!
     
  11. Yorkshire Dave

    Yorkshire Dave Western Thunderer

    It's worth checking out. You wouldn't have a brake compo+compo+brake third combination unless it was a scratch set made up, under BR days, of loose coaches. The common three coach combination was brake third+compo+brake third. Four coach sets were brake third+compo+compo+brake third.

    The 9' brake compo was usually paired (apart from the loose ones) with a brake third for the West of England two coach sets until SR carriage sets were broken up under BR ownership as Chris alluded to in post #62 earlier.
     
    AJC and Pencarrow like this.
  12. Pencarrow

    Pencarrow Western Thunderer

    Spot on Dave.

    Another common short set consist was a Brake Comp with a Brake Third. These could be strengthened by adding a loose Brake Compo or Corridor Third.

    I would go with a very typical Brake Third, Corridor Composite and Brake Third set. You could number the Brake Composite as a loose example and add it on to your 3-Set.
     
  13. Heather Kay

    Heather Kay Western Thunderer

    I think what Chris says is what has been decided. The only thing I need to be aware of is setting up the couplings between vehicles appropriately.

    I think I’ll have to find the bit of paper with all the info on. It’s been a year!
     
    Pencarrow likes this.
  14. Pencarrow

    Pencarrow Western Thunderer

    One thing I would recommend Heather is to replace the plastic underframe trusses with something more substantial. I started off with the plastic ones but soon broke them and had to retrofit replacements fabricated from brass angle. Much easier to do from the off.

    IMAG8984 - Copy.jpg

    IMAG8981 - Copy.jpg

    I built this first coach as per instructions with the roof separate. The roof is not a great fit though and the sides tend to curve in. Next coach will be built with the body and roof as a unit and that fixed to the underframe - as per the 4mm Hornby version.

    I spent a fair while looking at rain strips on these coaches. Like you I found that the moulded ones did not line up and cut them off. I also found that for a late BR period they were anywhere but where Slater's put them and often varying from coach to coach in a set. As ever, if you know what set you are doing, try and find photo.
     
  15. Pencarrow

    Pencarrow Western Thunderer

    Just looked back at Post 62, forgotten that I'd written all that!
     
    Heather Kay likes this.
  16. Threadmark: Gangways and compartments
    Heather Kay

    Heather Kay Western Thunderer

    Chris, Steph Dale also recommended replacing the plastic trusses. I haven’t done it because I felt the kit parts were actually okay, but I’m beginning to think I may be wrong on that score. Nothing has broken - yet - but I ought not tempt fate. I’ll sort out sizes and get an order in to Mr Metalsmith.

    Meanwhile, after a day of domestic doings, I looked at the Pullman gangways .

    83548B23-CBF7-417D-B0E4-C9C273F51B37.jpeg

    I like. I cleaned up the etched parts and let them steep in a bath of dilute Birchwood Casey for a time. Some faces got a better blackening than others, but there’s enough there for paint to cover. The concertina parts are folded from pre-scored black craft paper, and I’ve used impact adhesive to glue them to the brass. I have to say, having sampled three other manufacturers' attempts at this style of gangway, Slater's win for looks, functionality and simplicity. Of course, the ultimate prize goes to MMP, although they’re not exactly simple to put together.

    3CB049EC-FB7D-4414-8E6E-3094F9B8072E.jpeg

    Right, insideses. Fairly standard Slater's fare. At this stage, nothing is fixed in the body. I want to paint and detail before it goes in. That course of action has led me down some rabbit holes, as I’d like to do a nice job of the innards. I’ve been reading King's "Illustrated History" volume, but found precious little that covers the interiors.

    There is, of course, the Southern Railway E-Group web site, which yields some useful, if small, images of Maunsell Coaches. Digging a little further, I found the Bluebell Railway's section on Carriages: Technical Page - Moquettes. A little more digging, and I turned up a fellow by the name of Dave Clarke, who is rather keen on railway fabrics: Moquette | Flickr. I wonder if he also plays jazz piano…

    All of this led me to wonder if it would be feasible to use images like those linked to create transfers to apply to the seating. Making a tiled image ought not be major hurdle, getting the scale about right is quite possible, and it would certainly make the interiors of these coaches look rather splendid. The problem I have at the moment is pinning down quite which patterns were likely for the period up to the late 1950s and into the 1960s.

    I also wonder if I would be correct in assuming coaches which lived as sets of three went through works as sets and therefore saw the same upholstery patterns.

    So much to learn!

    I am still waiting on the lighting connectors to turn up, so I have decided not to work on any further end detailing at this stage. While I work out interior colours and details, I think it might be fun to start construction on another set of bogies. That will keep me occupied for a day or three.
     
  17. GrahameH

    GrahameH Western Thunderer

    Not quite as "high tech" as using transfers, I did make multiple images of a moquette seat covering ( taken from the GWR Railmotor interior when I travelled on it ) and with some stiching ( no pun intended but if it fits ! ) in a photoshop programme I produced these for my scratch built GW coach. A simple print done on self adhesive photo paper run through my printer and stuck to the scratch built seats, the flooring was also treated in the same manner. IMG_4946.jpg

    All this was done as a trial to see if it would withstand use on a layout that is being planned and so far I am happy to report there hasn't been any delimitation of the coverings.

    Grahame

    p.s. this is 7mm
     
  18. Heather Kay

    Heather Kay Western Thunderer

    That is an option. The reason I’m considering transfer material, though, is an attempt to retain Slater's moulded seat detail.

    In other news, I’m fighting the guard's lookout duckets. Why aren’t these etched items? It’s all but impossible to neatly form the shape from the flat plastic. :rant:
     
    GrahameH likes this.
  19. Pencarrow

    Pencarrow Western Thunderer

    How old is your kit Heather and have you fully checked the box contents?

    Mine had plastic ducket bits on the sprue and an extra brass fret with replacement etched parts.

    Guess which I used:

    post-6675-0-70131400-1453576111.jpg
     
    Rob Pulham, Len Cattley and GrahameH like this.
  20. Threadmark: Ducket woes
    Heather Kay

    Heather Kay Western Thunderer

    That would explain it. This particular one is one of the old red boxes.

    ED79B92A-1901-469B-9119-F327F71BDD8A.jpeg

    This, frankly, is an abomination.

    15F92D2F-93A3-48CA-B942-E4B652BA6731.jpeg

    This one as well.

    I’ll have to check the other boxes, and then get onto Mr White. Kettering isn’t far off now.

    I’m going to have a little sulk, and perhaps rage into Storm Erik to calm me down.

    EDIT: Etched duckets in the new boxings. Part number X7C02304. I’ll get a fret ordered up.
     
    Len Cattley and Pencarrow like this.