Crimson Rambler
Western Thunderer
E S Cox was deliberately misleading in his criticism of Midland axlebox design and thereby has sold too many loco enthusiasts a pup.
Crimson Rambler
Crimson Rambler
7mm Pete's workbench. LMS 2P or madness in a box.
- Thread starter Peter Cross
- Start date
simond
Western Thunderer
I know little about the Midland but I was having a lockdown “virtual pub night” with some pals yesterday evening and the subject of Breyer Garratts came up (apropos the model I’m currently building) and the discussion turned to mainline versions.
Wikipedia notes that there were considerable problems with reliability of the LMS versions due to the driving axle boxes being in sufficiently sized, so there is some reference for the opinion, but of course it might be a common source.
LMS Garratt - Wikipedia
I guess the proof of the pudding would be shed records for axle box changes, compared to those of other classes (presumably from other companies) with similar axle weights
Atb
Simon
Wikipedia notes that there were considerable problems with reliability of the LMS versions due to the driving axle boxes being in sufficiently sized, so there is some reference for the opinion, but of course it might be a common source.
LMS Garratt - Wikipedia
I guess the proof of the pudding would be shed records for axle box changes, compared to those of other classes (presumably from other companies) with similar axle weights
Atb
Simon
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
You'll have noted from my posting on 11th June that I qualify my comment with a "so I'm told". There may or may not be evidence to support the statement but the Garratts were not as successful as they might have been and were the 2Ps simply underpowered for the work expected of them? The 4-4-0s on the SE & CR and LSWR to name but 2 (and probably most of the Scottish 4-4-0s, but they are rather outside my knowledge bubble) were both powerful and long lived. There may be good reason to question the belief about Fowler axleboxes - the 2-6-4 tanks were long lived, powerful and were running alongside the much newer Fairburn and Stanier 2-6-4s for years.
I reckon Simon has the answer - let's look at some records and see what the surviving record cards tell us about the reasons the locos were stopped.
Having said this the Midland 4-4-0s were a really elegant loco of which I was very fond and the Garratts - which I just remember - were mighty looking engines (I have one of those in the stash as well.)
Brian
simond
Western Thunderer
Absent shed maintenance and repair records, it would probably be easier to compare the axle load with the bearing projected area (diameter x axial length) for “known” bad & good engines. Certainly the data is available.
There is plenty of information available about bearing loads and lubrication.
if there a clear correlation between those rumoured or reported to be dodgy and the mean pressure, it may be reasonable to conclude that the rumours are justified. If not, then the converse.
of course, it might not be loads and areas, but oil and wicks, or susceptibility to grit getting in, or...
atb
Simon
There is plenty of information available about bearing loads and lubrication.
if there a clear correlation between those rumoured or reported to be dodgy and the mean pressure, it may be reasonable to conclude that the rumours are justified. If not, then the converse.
of course, it might not be loads and areas, but oil and wicks, or susceptibility to grit getting in, or...
atb
Simon
JimG
Western Thunderer
Not on the old G&SWR lines in Scotland according to David L. Smith. The Sou' West's locomotives had suffered from old age and poor "improvements" from their last CME before Grouping. Their first injection of new blood was the 4P Compound and they were much appreciated although they had a tendency to slip. Then along came the 2P and they were a revelation to all, putting up excellent performances. As for load pulling, Corkerhill got one 2P and on one weekend they were short of a Compound for a Sunday excursion so they put the 2P on instead. The Compound was allowed 300 tons over the Barrhead Road and they hooked 284 tons behind the 2P. The driver reported afterwards that she had problems getting over Shilford, full open and in full fore gear. When the new load book came out, the top load for a 2P over the section was 170 tons!! They were worked hard but very well liked - nicknamed the "Wee Black Yins". Maybe a case of not suffering from the "Not Invented Here" syndrome - a bit like the Britannias on the Great Eastern.
Jim.
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oldravendale
Western Thunderer
It is years (and years) since I read that book and I'd certainly not have recognised the significance of that extract at the time. It rather gives the lie to the true situation doesn't it? Maybe it's one of those historical things - the real "not invented here " syndrome when they were on the WCML. As we've discussed before this was prevalent on the London underground when the Met men considered themselves a cut above the rest.
It makes me rethink the folk lore about the Midland and Fowler locos.
Brian
Crimson Rambler
Western Thunderer
Some interesting points have been raised to which, if I may, I would like to add. Axlebox length is limited on inside cylinder engines through the need to have adequate crank axle strength and cylinder spacing. The nett space available between the outside web and the back of the wheel allows typically 7.5 to 8ins length, consequently ‘box length is much of a muchness irrespective of the company. It can be increased a little by giving more dish to the wheel but this can bring other problems.
Yes, axlebox length can be increased on outside cylinder engines, so the ‘boxes could have been longer on the Garratts but why do it? The Garratts were in effect two 4Fs, so if the axleboxes performed satisfactorily on that, as they did in Midland days, why not retain the same design? The loading on the boxes for otherwise identical engines, is higher on inside cylinder engines if they have the conventional crank layout. Altering the crank layout to reduce the loading on the boxes raises it on the crank axle - the more expensive item. Earlier R M Deeley (an expert on lubrication and bearings) stated that he recommended restricting axlebox length to avoid them running hot on sharply curved track – something that in slightly different form would come back and bite E S Cox.
The LMS had problems because it substituted cheaper oil (it was deficient in the properties needed) along with white metal containing lead. The latter made the metal soften at a lower temperature - one that could be encountered in service if the engine was working hard cf the different melting points of solders. Axleboxes work in the thin film/mixed film region not hydrodynamically – as Beauchamp Tower actually demonstrated. The LMS was largely the agent of its own problems.
The LNER also suffered from hot boxes on some important inside cylinder classes during the Second World War. The company prompted the development of a special oil that in effect replicated the older oils used pre-Grouping. Adopted and applied by the LMS to the G2, 7F and 4F it resulted in a large drop in hot boxes but this was really a return to previous practice. In his axlebox paper E S Cox boasted of the performance of the Stanier axlebox – one hot per engine ‘box in ten years. While he observed in this paper that the LNWR had ‘undersized axleboxes’ he failed to refer to a survey he had carried out years before, when out of a class of 400 LNWR 0-8-0s there were 40 hot ‘boxes a ratio of one hot box/engine every ten years!
At this point, after such a long post, I think I had better stop!
Crimson Rambler
Yes, axlebox length can be increased on outside cylinder engines, so the ‘boxes could have been longer on the Garratts but why do it? The Garratts were in effect two 4Fs, so if the axleboxes performed satisfactorily on that, as they did in Midland days, why not retain the same design? The loading on the boxes for otherwise identical engines, is higher on inside cylinder engines if they have the conventional crank layout. Altering the crank layout to reduce the loading on the boxes raises it on the crank axle - the more expensive item. Earlier R M Deeley (an expert on lubrication and bearings) stated that he recommended restricting axlebox length to avoid them running hot on sharply curved track – something that in slightly different form would come back and bite E S Cox.
The LMS had problems because it substituted cheaper oil (it was deficient in the properties needed) along with white metal containing lead. The latter made the metal soften at a lower temperature - one that could be encountered in service if the engine was working hard cf the different melting points of solders. Axleboxes work in the thin film/mixed film region not hydrodynamically – as Beauchamp Tower actually demonstrated. The LMS was largely the agent of its own problems.
The LNER also suffered from hot boxes on some important inside cylinder classes during the Second World War. The company prompted the development of a special oil that in effect replicated the older oils used pre-Grouping. Adopted and applied by the LMS to the G2, 7F and 4F it resulted in a large drop in hot boxes but this was really a return to previous practice. In his axlebox paper E S Cox boasted of the performance of the Stanier axlebox – one hot per engine ‘box in ten years. While he observed in this paper that the LNWR had ‘undersized axleboxes’ he failed to refer to a survey he had carried out years before, when out of a class of 400 LNWR 0-8-0s there were 40 hot ‘boxes a ratio of one hot box/engine every ten years!
At this point, after such a long post, I think I had better stop!
Crimson Rambler
Peter Cross
Western Thunderer
Well after a long time of getting nowhere with my modelling, there is progress. The 2P is now in primer. Once cured I will check for filling etc. Bits I need to watch are cab roof where patched and boiler where some holes were filled.
Well here it and I must say I'm quite impressed.
The wheels are done too. For some reason I've had the red marker on the back of one of the port wheels leach through.
Well here it and I must say I'm quite impressed.
The wheels are done too. For some reason I've had the red marker on the back of one of the port wheels leach through.
Ressaldar
Western Thunderer
Hi Peter,
that is very good and looking at it from the different angle is sure to show up any imperfections.
Will you be weathering it, if so, then any minor dinks etc. could be dealt with as part of that process rather than dealing with them now.
I'm looking forward to seeing the finished loco.
kind regards
Mike
that is very good and looking at it from the different angle is sure to show up any imperfections
.Will you be weathering it, if so, then any minor dinks etc. could be dealt with as part of that process rather than dealing with them now.
I'm looking forward to seeing the finished loco.
kind regards
Mike
paulc
Western Thunderer
Hi Peter, i think you have done a magnificent job considering the basket case that you started with . Is that an etch primer or the Brazilian equivalent to Halfords , its certainly gone on nicely .
Hope you and the family are well , cheers Paul
Peter Cross
Western Thunderer
Hi Peter,
that is very good and looking at it from the different angle is sure to show up any imperfections
Will you be weathering it, if so, then any minor dinks etc. could be dealt with as part of that process rather than dealing with them now.
I'm looking forward to seeing the finished loco.
kind regards
Mike
Thanks Mike.
I'm not sure if I will weather it before I sell it, a lot depends on my lining.
I am quite looking forward to doing it, I think they looked good in BR lined black.
Peter Cross
Western Thunderer
Thanks Paul.
No it's acid 8 from Halfords I smuggle it in when ever we come to the UK. I've not found etching primer here yet. But I'm always looking. I think I found a place to mix paints just before lock down. Not tried it as yet.
Yes we are ok both the wife and I are in the risk categories but are lucky I don't work and she can from home.
Hoping things are ok for you too, are things easing around the country.
paulc
Western Thunderer
Hi Peter , I'm in Victoria , Australia and at the moment Victoria has gone back into lockdown with known infection rates on the rise , this is mainly due to the amount of testing being done each day . My wife and i are both retired and like you are both in the risk category but apart from not going out for a meal or coffee things haven't changed that much for us but if i was working it would be a whole new ball game .
Cheers Paul
Peter Cross
Western Thunderer
The 2P is now ready for lining. I must say I'm am not looking forward to this. As per normal I expect I'll get into it once I've started.
The frames are re assembled, and seem to work well with the wander leads, pickups are next.
More soon hopefully.
The frames are re assembled, and seem to work well with the wander leads, pickups are next.
More soon hopefully.
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Focalplane
Western Thunderer
Peter
I am slowly getting back into WT threads and I really like your 2P. I am also pleased that you are well in Brazil - we hear bad things from all sorts of places but sometimes I think they are "fake news" to hide what is going on closer to home! Having worked every continent except Antarctica I have made many friends and all seem to be doing well, thank goodness.
The Fowler 2P did have its problems but the fact that local trains from Birmingham to Bristol and back were able to climb Lickey does say something positive! OK, I am sure that someone will say that the 2Ps went via Redditch to Ashchurch but they still had to climb hills when going back to Brum! And 2Ps were stock locos on the S&D!
Paul
I am slowly getting back into WT threads and I really like your 2P. I am also pleased that you are well in Brazil - we hear bad things from all sorts of places but sometimes I think they are "fake news" to hide what is going on closer to home! Having worked every continent except Antarctica I have made many friends and all seem to be doing well, thank goodness.
The Fowler 2P did have its problems but the fact that local trains from Birmingham to Bristol and back were able to climb Lickey does say something positive! OK, I am sure that someone will say that the 2Ps went via Redditch to Ashchurch but they still had to climb hills when going back to Brum! And 2Ps were stock locos on the S&D!
Paul
Lancastrian
Western Thunderer
Peter,
That is coming along very nicely. Will look forward to seeing it when finished.
Ian
That is coming along very nicely. Will look forward to seeing it when finished.
Ian
LarryG
Western Thunderer
They were big engines for class 2P. Big wheels fed by a big boiler so they could run at express speeds double heading all day. Or on normal 2P work trotting around with 3-4 coaches. Scottish crews who wanted power and good brakes on the downgrades liked them. I rode on one of the last survivors when I was 18. Bet Pete's model will look good in action.
Peter Cross
Western Thunderer
Ian
I'd forgotten that. When I lived in Redditch the line had already been cut. But a friend was well into the station as it was. I do remember the shed there was huge.
As for vivid 19 it's not fake news, or moron in charge I think is trying to out do trump.
Thanks Ian.
I hope it will live up to expectations. Lining is not a strong point of mine.
I rather like the overall appearance of them.
I would of liked to of seen more steam as a child, but growing up on the Reading Waterloo line there weren't many to see in the mid sixties.
I'm hoping it going look good when working too.