Re: Steph's WR Workbench - Springside 2251

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Steph's WR Workbench - Springside 2251

Well, the title to this thread is a phrase I never imagined I'd be putting together. In fact putting my name in any proximity to anything WR would have caused a fairly extreme reaction until fairly recently. Two things have changed this and I now have a few WR locos in the 'to do' pile: a 'Duke', an 'Earl' (note, I didn't say 'Dukedog', so I'm learning!) and this 2251...

The two changes? Well, modelling the Romsey-Southampton stretch of the Southern requires a small number of WR locos to work the inter-regional trains and the second thing is reading 'Locomotive Adventure' by Harry Holcroft. A 43xx may well follow after I realised Holcroft's involvement.

So with another thread on making up the inside valvegear up and running, this thread is much more about the constructional bits and pieces, the updates, trials, tribulations and general ego-trip that these things tend to be. So here's where I got up to, about half an hour ago after some months of fiddling, research, etc. and a couple of evenings actually at the bench:
IMG_8057.jpg

It's now got to come apart to have things like axle spacing washers fitted and contacts wired, etc. So here's a couple of photos of it taken a bit closer to the interesting bits. The crank axle (as covered elsewhere!) uses Laurie Griffin components and is fitted to the axle using Loctite 638 and a couple of brass wire pins. Having proved it fits I'll now keep it out of the chassis until much later in the build - I want to know the basic 0-6-0 chassis runs well before worrying about the valvegear:
IMG_8058.jpg
IMG_8059.jpg

The gearbox is one I've had in stock, made up for a while. It pre-dates the current Roxey equivalent; I like asymmetric gearboxes as they make the construction of the split axles so much easier. In the case of this loco the 'main' split in the axle is underneath the white styrene spacer and there's another stealthy one on the outside of the gearbox that was added much later. If it's of interest I can show how these are done? I make them up on the bench: no machine tools necessary (despite what everyone will tell you):
IMG_8060.jpg

Here's a quick shot of the wheels and hornblocks out of the frames. The driven- and leading-wheelsets both use Slater's 7961 (IIRC) described as an 'insulated square bearing'. It's made from glass filled nylon (as their wheels) and has a brass (or maybe copper?) bearing insert in the middle. These haven't been wired for pickup yet, it's a job I'll be doing soon. On the leading wheelset (at the back of the picture) you can see that I've drilled a 'pit' in the top of the hornblock to take a screw and spring to give some height/level adjustment at the front of the chassis; you'll also note the mark on the axle; it's the epoxy used to insulate the axle. The driven wheelset has been made up with no sideplay in it - the sideplay is given by the hornblocks moving in the hornguides. The crank axle isn't electrically split, I've got round this by not running wires down the backs of the wheels from the rim to the hub, which is what the others have. This axle will need a couple of axle spacing washers fitted between the hornblocks and the wheels for two reasons: 1) sideplay on the crank axle may cause problems with con-rod clearances and 2) I want the backs of the wheels to be used as the 'limiter' on sideplay, rather than the crank axle as I think the wheels are probably better able to take the sidethrusts than it going the whole way through the axle.
IMG_8061.jpg

The last few photos show the compensation beams and hornblocks. The compensation beam is much more artistically shaped than I would usually make it. It started off as a very simple shape but by the time I'd finished thinking about it the shape became much more subtle around the crank axle and I think it'll end up looking like part of the hornguide rather than obviously a compensation beam. The extra set of holes are in there to clear a brake hanger bracket in case I need to wire or thread the holes to attach the brakegear (I haven't decided yet). The rear set of hornguides are simply made from some good quality milled 3mm x 3mm 'L' section brass. You may also notice the brake lever set: this is new and was made up on the spacer with 224 solder before the chassis was assembled. It a 'nice to have' which isn't in the kit...
IMG_8063.jpg

And here's a couple of shots showing how I managed to modify a set of Martin Finney hornguides to take the Slater's insulated bearings. An assembled, but otherwise unchanged, hornblock/guide is shown for comparison. So there's a set of nice detailed hornblocks that are also handy for split axles. Insulating at the bearing means that the frames and brakegear can all be assembled pretty much normally, but with split axles you get low maintenance, low friction pick-up. Useful when this model will be putting in many miles on a layout that's probably the best part of fifty miles from here!
IMG_8047.jpg
IMG_8052.jpg

Well, that's it from me for the moment. Updates will occur as I progress...

Steph
 
Last edited:

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Steph's WR Workbench - Springside 2251

Steph Dale said:
Well, the title to this thread is a phrase I never imagined I'd be putting together.  In fact putting my name in any proximity to anything WR would have caused a fairly extreme reaction until fairly recently.  Two things have changed this and I now have a few WR locos in the 'to do' pile: a 'Duke', an 'Earl' (note, I didn't say 'Dukedog', so I'm learning!)...

Steph

Just check that you have enough 6' 8" wheels for your Earl....  you know, like six of them! ;)
regards, Graham
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Steph's WR Workbench - Springside 2251

Dog Star said:
Just check that you have enough 6' 8" wheels for your Earl....  you know, like six of them! ;)
regards, Graham

Hi Graham,

Apparently not learning well enough then  ::)

I must try harder, I must try harder, I must....

Steph
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Steph's WR Workbench - Springside 2251

So there are at least a couple of outside frame GWR 4-4-0s in the "round-to-it" pile.  When we last discussed the question of the crank axle and the associated clearances I think that we had agreed on the overall length of the driving axle....  and ther was no clear conclusion on the thickness of the outside crank nor the section through the crank.  Whilst I am now aware of the existance of a Swindon-stamped copy of the motion drawing for the Dukes I have yet to see the item. What have you been able to turn up in regard to the (inside and outside) crank section and dimensions?

regards, Graham
 

Dan Randall

Western Thunderer
Steph's WR Workbench - Springside 2251

Hi Steph

I like the combination of the insulated Slater's hornblocks and Finney etched hornguides.  It's too late for my "Castle", but as a big fan of split-axles, I might have to "borrow" that idea on future steam loco builds.  :thumbs:


Regards

Dan
 

7mmMick

Western Thunderer
Steph's WR Workbench - Springside 2251

Hi Steph,

I like the split axle idea and it's definately of interest to me how it's done so if possible could you please show the method. Also I think i'm going to join the loctite gang for my current project as I have a set of Laurie Griffin Joy inside valve gear to fit, I may have to pick your brains a bit though if you don't mind? Keep the pictures coming, very inspirational  :bowdown: :bowdown:

Cheers Mick 
 

Dikitriki

Flying Squad
Steph's WR Workbench - Springside 2251

Hi Steph

I've bought some Slater's insulated hornblocks to be used in conjunction with split axles and an ABC insulated bearing gearbox, which should make the split easier on the driven axle.

I presume you've left the lip on the nylon block to the outside, and the lateral movement is constrained by the lip one way and via the sideplay on the other. Is that right? I was considering filing the lip off and fabricating front and back plates for the hornguides to retain the hornblock.

I hadn't worked out what hornguides to use so your use of the Finney ones is timely for me.

Richard
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Steph's WR Workbench - Springside 2251

Evenin' each,

Well I've kept my nose to the grind stone with this build, although being late in from work this evening has somewhat reduced the bench time for today...

Graham,  I did dig something up a month or two ago which involved works drawings and a calculator.  Which I've now forgotten and will have to find again.  Leave it with me....  Oh, and the unfortunate demise of the old pattern Slater's o/c axles has been much exaggerated: I managed to get hold of a couple of spares from Slater's themselves at Reading show.  I suppose I should have got a couple more in case I (prototypically!) break a crank axle on the Duke or Dukedog.

Dan,  I'm not sure if the idea of using Slater's insulated square bearings with the Finney hornguides is mine or not, but whether it is or not, I'm pleased to report it works and gives a much better appearance than the Slater's nylon hornguides; I still intend to use the latter on some tenders though.  The only issue I had was because my usual dodge of polishing up a 'sticky' hornblock/guide set with a blob of Brasso would be pretty bad kharma; a fine emery board did the biz though.  I am certain that modifying the Finney hornblock system to springing isn't my idea; that was covered by Steve Barnfield in the G0G Gazette build of an S7 BR(E) A1/1.  The only tricky thing is going to be fitting some sort of wire, tag or terminal to the bush in the hornblocks without damaging them...

Mick,  The use of Loctite 638 seems to have been successfull.  Getting hold of the specific grade is important, I found that a well-known on-line auction 'site could oblige.  I bought the one with the best/longest shelf life that was listed at the time I needed it.  I found that there are a couple of little tricks that help (including use of the compatible cleaner, Loctite 7063) and it's also well worth pinning the cranks to the axle after assembly.  I s'pose I should get the write up for that done for the website; you're not the only interested party!  By all means tap me up when you get going, I'd be delighted to help if I can.  On the subject of the split axles I now have three methods for making them; the first (normal) one is covered on my website and I took photos of the other types when I needed to make some up recently for driven axles.  When I do the update (hopefully this weekend) I'll cross post it to this forum.  Mind you, I've been saying I'll do it 'this weekend' for around six months now!  Insulated crank axles are the next problem to solve, I have a couple of ideas and one of the future projects would benefit from one.

Richard,  I'll have a chat with Brian (of ABC) at Bristol show to find out a little more about the gearboxes they do with insulated bearings.  Does it actually have a PTFE (or similar) bearing, or is it just that it's a brass/bronze bearing insulated from the rest of the frame?  The former would be far more useful!  Your assumption of the setting out of the hornblocks is entirely correct; in the case of the driven axle there's the added complexity of the drive and not wanting the bearing to cross either of the insulation breaks in the axle.  On the leading axle I will be using the frame which holds the ATC shoe to tie the two hornblocks together across the frames: a nice prototypical detail which will also serve a function.  An alternative, as you say, would be to add a flange to the back/inner side of the hornblock: in practise a strip across the top/bottom would do it.  So would running a wire between the two under the axle...

Thank you all for your comments.  Hopefully more (and photos!) tomorrow.  All I managed today was to add in an extra spacer to the frames, prepare a length of brass tube to go between the compensation beams and reducing the motion bracket width so it fits between the frames.  Oh, and a quick measure up to confirm that I've got the ride height correct (phew ;) ).  Stay tuned split axle fans - wait till you see how I'm going to get the juice from the front of the chassis to the back!  :eek:

T'ra for now,

Steph
 

Dikitriki

Flying Squad
Steph's WR Workbench - Springside 2251

Hi Steph

The ABC insulated gearbox has PTFE (or similar) bearings. As you say, much better as there is a little more space to play with.

Richard
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Steph's WR Workbench - Springside 2251

That's great!  With some care the step/split in the axle can go under the bearing!!!

Steph
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Steph's WR Workbench - Springside 2251

Hi guys,

A quick request for info, if I may.  First let me explain...

I've now put the basic firebox together from the 4 castings provided to make it.  I used 145 solder to tack it together and having confirmed it matched up with the drawings then ran seams of the same solder - effectively welding it into one item.  It's worked well, maybe too well; I've lost the edge definition of the top panel to the cladding. So...:

Can someone confirm the size of the trapezoidal top cladding panel for the firebox of this loco, please?
As an alternative is there a ready source of an external outline drawing that would help me?  I'm thinking of the sort of thing that might appear in one of the mags.  I've got a copy of a GA (thanks to a back-issue of GWRJ) but it doesn't show that level of cladding detail...

Cheers,

Steph
 

28ten

Guv'nor
Steph's WR Workbench - Springside 2251

Do you mean on top if the firebox? Or the sides?  A pic would help :D
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Steph's WR Workbench - Springside 2251

Top. And I can't post a pic as I've obliterated all evidence of it ever having been there. Oh hang on, had a thought. Then had another thought...

img_8067_copy.JPG

The blue lines roughly show where there's a cladding panel join. It's this panel that I need the dimensions of (widths at front and rear would enough). I didn't think about it too much when I joined the castings as most railways don't have a panel join there!

Steph

(modified to include picture and description)
 
Last edited:

28ten

Guv'nor
Steph's WR Workbench - Springside 2251

Ah yeah, a little 5 thou overlay with a few rivets. I will have a look at what I have, but it should be fairly clear from a decent drawing. It is actually something I have done on quite a few etched kits as it is very noticeable.
 

bogusman

Western Thunderer
Steph's WR Workbench - Springside 2251

Just mearsured my second Finney kit (4mm scale). With a vernier it measures 15.8mm at the front boiler band tapering down to 13mm at the rear boiler band. Hope this is some help.

Pete 
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Steph's WR Workbench - Springside 2251

Cynric, Pete,

Just the ticket, thanks!  On this model it's quite likely to be done with tape rather than brass though...

Cheers,

Steph
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Steph's WR Workbench - Springside 2251

Hi guys,

Another quick question for the GWR enthusiasts: I've just opened the pack of Slater's ATC gear and don't recognise one of the castings:
IMG_8072_copy.jpg

Can someone advise what it is and where it goes, please? I can't see it on the GA...

Cheers,

Steph
 
Last edited:

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Steph's WR Workbench - Springside 2251

Hi Steph,

There are two ways in which the plunger mechanism lies relative to the frame..  either vertically or horizontally.  The horizontal type is generally fitted to a cradle which lies in front / behind the front axle of a bogie.  The vertical type is generally fitted to a cross-member and often under the cab.  The photograph shows a vertical fitment.  The bit which you have circled seems to have a small spigot at the left hand end and I wonder if there is a mating hole in the largest component... between the legs and opposite the shoe.

"Possible addition to library time"  GWR 2-Cylinder Locomotives by Ernie Nutty...  he wrote that tome, circa 1980, so as to help the preservationists and I guess that thought is just as applicable to modelmakers of today.
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Steph's WR Workbench - Springside 2251

Graham,

It seems that I don't need it then! I'm assuming that this is correct for this batch of locos, which I know have the ATC shoe mounted on a stretcher between the axleboxes (most 2251s seem not to have). Have I got the casting the right way up/round?
IMG_8073.jpg

Some assembly and trimming remains to be done on this item...!

Steph
 
Last edited:

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Steph's WR Workbench - Springside 2251

Steph Dale said:
Graham,

It seems that I don't need it then!  I'm assuming that this is correct for this batch of locos, which I know have the ATC shoe mounted on a stretcher between the axleboxes (most 2251s seem not to have).  Have I got the casting the right way up/round?
I have a recollection that this class has featured in GWRJ and if that is the case then there is likely to be a Frame Plan in the article.
 
Top