Steel 13T Private Owner Wagon

Discussion in 'Techniques' started by Overseer, 1 October 2014.

  1. Overseer

    Overseer Western Thunderer

    Things don't seem to move as fast when it comes to adding the details but there has been some progress in odd hours since the last post. Apologies for the dodgy photos.
    IMG_0161 side2.jpg
    Brake safety loops added, a few other bits and pieces and the first spring. The end door pin chain was not hanging properly in the photo so a detail shows it in close up. I was going to put the pins in as well as the round loop but decided I wouldn't bother.
    IMG_0163 chain.jpg
    The spring shoes (RCH part number 1012/17 for anyone who needs to know) on the steel framed RCH wagons are a bit of a pain but not too hard to make to scale. The bits are below with a couple of shoes soldered together. I had already selected the best bits so will need to adjust some of the ones left to make them more symmetrical. It helps to make extras as they are quite pingable and disappear on the floor. To make drilling small holes (0.4mm in this case) easier I punch the locations first with the rivet press then file off the rivet and open the hole up with the drill. The trial shoes were soldered in place with the plastic spring (modified Exactoscale - file off the timber solebar spring shoes and drill for the fixing wires) in place. The plastic seems to cope fine provided you don't dwell too long with the soldering iron. I did have a bit of melt down of one of the brake shoes by having the soldering iron too close to it while soldering another part so need to rebuild it.
    IMG_0157 shoes.jpg

    The end is in sight. Adding the details is pretty much the same whether it is a kit or scratchbuild. Which reminds me I have a batch of wagons in need of brake gear and other bits to finish them off, and a collection of brake bits from various sources to go with them. Maybe a putting a comparative review together might get me motivated to finish them.
  2. 7mmMick

    7mmMick Western Thunderer

    Looks Great Fraser, I like the look of the Stephenson Clarke wagon behind the two steel bodied ones,

    ATB Mick
    3 LINK likes this.
  3. Overseer

    Overseer Western Thunderer

    Thanks Mick. The SC wagon has been seen a few times on WT and will probably be seen some more. It is one of my 1950s fleet being used to experiment with finishes and weathering. It is a Slaters kit with Powsides transfers and still needs the internal detailing and brake gear to be finished. The aim of the 1950s stock is to represent the post war decrepitude of mineral wagons as convincingly as I can. My previous modelling has been of prototypes in far better cosmetic condition - for example the Highland Railway in the 1870s doesn't call for much weathering at all - so this stock gives me a chance to try something different.
    Rob Pulham and 7mmMick like this.
  4. 7mmMick

    7mmMick Western Thunderer

    1950's post war, absolutely the way forward and right up my street. This time period represents everything I love about the NER at that time and wooden bodied pool stock plays a major part in that :thumbs: I recently found this and got lots of pictures, but even this one is far too worn out even for 1950
  5. 7mmMick

    7mmMick Western Thunderer

  6. Overseer

    Overseer Western Thunderer

    Add a few more bits and pieces and ….
    IMG_0249 brass.jpg
    IMG_0252 brass.jpg
    IMG_0255 bottom.jpg
    And ready for primer. I was going to use etch primer but had a can of car primer handy so used that instead.
    IMG_0256 uc.jpg
    IMG_0259 uc.jpg
    IMG_0260 uc.jpg
    IMG_0263 uc.jpg
    IMG_0264 uc.jpg

    I haven't quite decided on the final colour. I was tending to Bauxite but now think they were probably mostly black from WWII until the survivors were painted grey during the 1950s. This ties in with the common paint colour used on wooden bodied PO wagons when any paint was used during repairs. It was probably bitumen paint so fades to grey quite quickly which probably explains the tone difference visible in the photos between the body colour and the black lettering patches. If anyone has definitive information it would be good to know. A suitable P-number is also needed. The two identified wagons photographed by Paul Bartlett do not seem to have bottom doors while the distant 1950s views which inspired the model have bottom door markings but the numbers aren't decipherable on the published photos. The original photographs may show more.

    I hope this thread inspires people to have a go at building in brass or nickel silver. It is not difficult once the basics are learnt. The biggest difference between scratch building and building a kit is that scratch building requires more research and thinking about how you are going to make the model before you start. It is only a wagon so perfection is not really needed, and as you can see from the photos my wagon is a fair way from perfect. I have tried to show the warts and all as it progressed. The methods are not difficult, it is just a case of finding a way of doing things that suit you. The basic materials are not expensive so trying different ways of doing things will be no real loss if it goes wrong.
  7. Dikitriki

    Dikitriki Flying Squad

    That looks great. It all comes together with a coat of primer. The underframe shows up particularly well. And I can appreciate how much work you have put into it and this thread. Thank you.

  8. Overseer

    Overseer Western Thunderer

    Thanks, no problem. This wagon has been on the to do list for quite a while so it has been good to get it built. Without WT I would probably not have got on and finished it as soon. Taking some photos and explaining how I do things is not a chore. I can't take much credit for the underframe as most of it is from Exactoscale. They do go together well and look good. It will be good to see your wagon finished as well.
  9. Overseer

    Overseer Western Thunderer

    I decided to go for red oxide for the body, Precision Paints, I''l have to check the code number but it was paint I have had for some time. The tin has 14 New Cavendish Street as the manufacturers address so that must make it at least 20 years old. The red was sprayed on and the black underframe brush painted followed by a spray of dilute brown/black mix, trying not to get much on the body. Then thin washes of rusty black applied to the body by brush, going over parts and removing parts to achieve what I hope looks like a moderately grimy weather worn appearance.

    IMG_0338 1 side.jpg
    IMG_0337 1 side end.jpg
    IMG_0342 1 side.jpg
    IMG_0339 1 end.jpg
    The gloss black patches are on ready for numbers. I think I have worked out what the number will be but I would like more definitive information on the P numbers for these wagons, or at least some of them. I would have used one of the two identified on Paul Bartlett's site but they don't seem to have bottom doors so not quite the same. I am pleased with how the wagon is looking, just another mineral wagon.
  10. Simon

    Simon Flying Squad

    That looks terrific, a very believable looking colour and finish too:thumbs:

  11. Osgood

    Osgood Western Thunderer

    Especially the inside - could we see more of the inside? :thumbs:
  12. Overseer

    Overseer Western Thunderer

    It isn't very interesting, and I don't think it is finished. I will have to take some more photos. The inside was air brushed with Humbrol 170, a not very attractive matt brown as a base rust colour, then an hour or two later I started slopping on the thin black and brown wash, not well mixed, with extra mineral turpentine (white spirit) slopped on to vary the density. Then it started to go wrong as the brown started washing off as well as it wasn't properly dry, but it meant the grey primer shows through a bit more in places. Some more work and it will come together, but probably not until I am painting some other steel wagon interiors.
  13. 7mmMick

    7mmMick Western Thunderer

    Great work Fraser, very inspirational. I'm really looking forward to seeing it finished :thumbs:

  14. Overseer

    Overseer Western Thunderer

    Thank you Simon and Mick, and thanks for all the likes. Hopefully this thread will encourage people to have a go, getting started is often the hardest part. Although I seem to often have a problem getting finished as well so it really helps having WT to keep focused. Exhibition deadlines are also very effective for focusing the mind on getting things finished.
  15. Overseer

    Overseer Western Thunderer

    I knew I had seen a BR period photo of a Butterley patent wagon in closer to original condition and finally realised where it was while looking through some Model Railway Journals last night. MRJ 151 has a very useful explanation of private owner wagon renumbering by David Larkin and it includes a good photo of a Butterley wagon on page 138 -
    butterley MRJ151.jpg
    Note the rolled top to the sides and end, and the way the end sheets are folded around to overlap the sides instead of having separate angle irons at the corners. Might have to build another Butterley wagon, but not just yet.
    Stumpytrain, 3 LINK, 7mmMick and 5 others like this.
  16. David Taylor

    David Taylor Western Thunderer

    Great thread, thanks for putting it all on here.
  17. AJC

    AJC Western Thunderer

    As others have said, thank you for sharing this information and the build. The, albeit not-quite-complete end result is a fine testament to the work involved. Interesting to note the extensive replating along the bottom of P 245847; all those rivets!

    Lyndhurstman likes this.
  18. 7mmMick

    7mmMick Western Thunderer

    A cracking picture and I will have to dig out these articles. I think I have the issues out somewhere in any case as I was using them for a timber 10t ex Hickleton wagon I am modelling. David Larkin has some brilliant prototype photos and when i last spoke to him on email, probably a good year ago he said he was putting a book together in the same vein as this article which would list all the P numbers and their allocation. It would be fantastic to see that in print. I understand the later addition of the riveted replacement panels but was the rolled top a later repair or simply a different batch with a sightly different diagram ?

    ATB Mick
  19. Overseer

    Overseer Western Thunderer

    Mick, the rolled top is the original design and one of the patented features of the Butterley wagons. The angle iron top I modelled is a later alteration which seems to have been widespread for repairs carried out during the 1940s and 50s. The joggle at the top of the side and end verticals to accommodate the rolled top remained on the rebuilt wagons and is the quick spotting feature for Butterley built wagons. I meant to include it on my model but forgot to while building it. I agree that a book compiling all David Larkin's research would be good to have. It can be frustrating trying to decipher wagon numbers in distant photos for P numbered wagons and if you guess numbers the chance of being wrong is much greater than being right, a photo is bound to come to light showing that the number was actually used on a 8 plank wagon instead of a 7 plank or steel wagon. I would think that it is a very small niche market for a book, although with the very small print runs now possible with high quality digital printing at reasonable prices it could work.
  20. Overseer

    Overseer Western Thunderer

    I realised I hadn't posted any photos of the complete wagon so here it is with a number etc. -
    butterley fin1a.jpg
    butterley fin2.jpg
    butterley fin3.jpg

    I had some issues with the current Humbrol matt varnish being not as matt as it should be. It smells unpleasant as well so I may not be using it again.