7mm The Old Man's Workbench - tales of a rivet side

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
To recap... additions to Peter's train of engineer's wagons are a couple of Parkside Grampus kits whilst Peter's liking for hopper wagons has prompted the purchase of two Parkside kits for the 21T (unfitted) coal hopper, as here:-

Visitors to the folding table this weekend have been kits from the Parkside Dundas range... some Grampii (kit ref. PS14) and a couple of the BR welded hopper (kit ref. PS104). The Grampus kit goes together nicely and we have selected a couple of candidates from Paul Bartlett's website (Paul is a member of this forum). The hopper kit is for an unfitted wagon to diagram 1/146 and TOPS code HTO and thereby can be found the reason for this post.

We are modelling the late BR period, circa 1986-88, and whilst there are a good number of photographs of these hoppers to be found on Paul's website the scenario for wagons post 1980 is that diagram 1/146 wagons with the original style of body (five stanchions) and subsequent modification (shortened centre stanchion) have been given vacuum cylinders (now TOPS code HTV). The photos show a single vacuum cylinder which is located on top and to one corner of the underframe. As yet I have no idea as to the arrangement of levers / pull-rods which connect the vacuum cylinder to the cross-shaft under the solebars.

Anyone converted the Parkside kit from un-fitted to fitted braking?

To continue:- browsing Paul Bartlett's wagon photos showed that by the mid 1980s the remaining HTOs in the north of the country had been fitted with the vacuum brake and taken the TOPS code of HTV. The addition of a cast vacuum cylinder to our Parkside HTO kit was arranged and then photos acquired to illustrate the difference(s) between HTO and HTV for the brake arrangement. At the same time I was given a link to the Rumney Models website where I found the instructions for an underframe kit which is suitable for a vac-fitted diagram 1/146 21T hopper wagon ( as per the Parkside kit). The instructions are very helpful is getting to grips with the HTO / HTV changes... the only downside for me is that the kit is for 4mm modellers rather than our chosen scale of 7mm :( .

Earlier this year I contacted Julian (@jjnewitt) to see if he might consider preparing an etch for adding the HTV gear to a Parkside 7mm HTO kit. Initial discussions suggested that our requirement for detail packs was less than Justin's view of a minimum to proceed. However, after realising that the brake gear of a HTO was similar to that of a Grampus - and we are intending to have more than a couple of those Parkside kits - the emphasis changed from being focussed on the HTV to detailing a Grampus with the vac gear parts of a HTV hiding in the corners of Grampus detailing sheet :thumbs: .

The current position is that Julian and I are discussing preparation of drawings / photo tools for a detailing pack for the Parkside 7mm Grampus kit, the contents to include, as a minimum:-

* lifting link brake gear for 12'0" WB underframe;
* V-hangers for brake cross-shaft and for lifting link;
* handbrake lever guard;
* storage basket for ends of the body.

Justin is thinking about including wagon numberplates and label clips. I shall provide an un-made kit so that Justin can test his drawings / parts against the mouldings.

In addition, we have discussed preparation of drawings for the etching of the vac cylinder brackets... vac brake shaft brackets... additional levers for the brake cross-shaft and vac brake shaft... bottom door levers...

What else ought to be considered as desirable for the Grampus detailing pack? and for the HTV conversion?

Please comment here or PM to Justin.

thanks, Graham
 

iak63

Western Thunderer
Blimey, bit of a holy grail is detail etches for Grampus.
Of course, being a P4 type means 7mm is no use but I'll wager that some shot down/redrawn ones in 4mm would get a lot of people excited.
Mention those blasted cages/baskets for the end sections = excessive wobbling wibbling and knashing of teeth.
As to the 7mm etches, do not some Grampus have steps over buffers or something akin? A nice fold up bit may be of use?

Sláinte
Iain
 

AJC

Western Thunderer
As to the 7mm etches, do not some Grampus have steps over buffers or something akin? A nice fold up bit may be of use?

Sláinte
Iain

I suspect that you're thinking of the SR-designed Lamprey, Iain - sometime latterly branded Grampus.

Paul Bartlett, as ever, can provide: BR ballast Lamprey, Crab, ZBO ZBV ZCV | DB991003_ZBV_LAMPREY__1m_

Going from context, I presume that @Dog Star has the 12' wheelbase long link brake gear in mind (as opposed to the later clasp-braked variety of the Grampus). Nice to see that 7mm might catch up with 4mm... ;)

Adam
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Going from context, I presume that @Dog Star has the 12' wheelbase long link brake gear in mind (as opposed to the later clasp-braked variety of the Grampus).
Yes, I am referring to the similarity of the Grampus un-fitted brake gear to that of the 21T Hopper un-fitted brake gear.
 
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auld_boot

Western Thunderer
Would it be feasible to add parts for a conversion to a Tope?
As far as I can tell it would require the two end extensions to the hopper and maybe a set of redesigned hopper supports for the sides.
LTSV Wagons - Profiles

BR Tope 21t coal hopper - rebuilt as TOPE ZDV ZCV

The slight downside to this is that GJH already do a resin bodied Tope kit, although I believe theirs doesn't have the hopper extensions so an etch might help them.
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Would it be feasible to add parts for a conversion to a Tope?
As far as I can tell it would require the two end extensions to the hopper and maybe a set of redesigned hopper supports for the sides.
Not quite as the Parkside kit for the 21T Coal Hopper to Diagram 1/146 produces a welded body with five ribs / stanchions along each body side. OK - removal of ribs 1, 3 and 5 ought to produce a hopper body from which removal of a "top-slice" would give the basis of a Tope.

Humm, a significant number of Paul Bartlett's photos of Topes were recorded in Scotland in the late 1980s so maybe I ought to join the queue for the Tope conversion pack. What is worth noting here is that my original request of Justin was for etch parts only as I had obtained a couple of suitable vac cyl castings. For a Tope conversion to be viable then we may have to sort a sustainable source of vac cyls..
 

AJC

Western Thunderer
In later life a fair number of Grampus wagons gained "odd" replacements for the removable ends, see Paul Bartlett's website for examples, such as here . Might this be of interest to others?
(@jjnewitt).

A quick glance suggests a lack of standardisation and, given that, might Evergreen strip be a better option? It would certainly be a lot quicker.

Adam
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
A quick glance suggests a lack of standardisation...
I agree that there are several variations of replacement ends... sufficient variation to go with a lack of standard. Working through Paul Bartlett's images can identify a "most often" candidate - my preference being for examples post 1986 and somewhere to the west of Edinburgh.

... might Evergreen strip be a better option?
Possibly, maybe even probably. As the prototype looks to be plate of circa 6mm (OK, 1/4" in old money) then etch is going to offer a better appearance than plastic. Further, thin plastic has a habit of shedding edges particularly where joined by solvent. Overall, my preference is etch.
 

iak63

Western Thunderer
I suspect that you're thinking of the SR-designed Lamprey, Iain - sometime latterly branded Grampus.

Paul Bartlett, as ever, can provide: BR ballast Lamprey, Crab, ZBO ZBV ZCV | DB991003_ZBV_LAMPREY__1m_

Going from context, I presume that @Dog Star has the 12' wheelbase long link brake gear in mind (as opposed to the later clasp-braked variety of the Grampus). Nice to see that 7mm might catch up with 4mm... ;)

Adam

Having looked at some pictures this morning, they are not so much steps, more angled projections.
They seem to be on the Grampus fitted with Oleo's.
The pictures are frae Mr Bartletts site by the way.
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
The detailing etches which can be used with the Parkside 7mm Grampus kit are likely to happen. I have received the following from Justin (@jjnewitt) as a proposed content of the underframe detailing pack..

12'0" Wheelbase RCH lifting link underframe detailing and brakegear etch

Brake shaft vees and secondary brake lever vees
Brake levers including plain, lifting link and Morton clutch version
Lifting links and cranks
Brake lever guards, brackets and stays
Riveted axlebox guide overlays
21T hopper end covers (unfitted type)
21T hopper steps
21T hopper door opening levers and bracketsÂ
Tie bars/axlebox bridles
Solebar detailing (number plates, etc)
Coupling pockets
Coupling hooks
Grampus baskets
Grampus door springs
21T mineral springs
2 sets of pushrod brakes + safety loops

There are some parts on the etch tool which are possibly superfluous to detailing a Parkside Grampus kit and that is because the etch is to produce the brake gear for more than just a single design of wagon. Justin has provided a second list of preliminary contents for the 21T HTV detail pack and I shall not publish that list until Justin has had time to consider the recent request for including TOPE conversion parts.

At this time the provisional price for the 12'0" WB non-fitted underframe etch is £20.00 per, the minimum order number for these detail packs is six across those who wish to be included.

Graham
 
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hrmspaul

Western Thunderer
In later life a fair number of Grampus wagons gained "odd" replacements for the removable ends, see Paul Bartlett's website for examples, such as here . Might this be of interest to others?

As before, either comment here or PM to Justin (@jjnewitt).


That isn't an "odd" end. It is the original design used on the earliest lots. They got swapped around, but that is the first Lot.

This is the same design of end, but put in reversed. BR Grampus ballast open unfitted ZBO

Paul
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
That isn't an "odd" end. It is the original design used on the earliest lots. ... This is the same design of end, but put in reversed. BR Grampus ballast open unfitted ZBO
Thank you Paul,

Very useful and timely - your link to DB990265 shows a wagon which is on our radar as a candidate for the folding table (after a visit to Messrs. Parkside and Dundas at Telford). Clearly, I need to pay closer attention to the removable ends.
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
An interesting diversion may see some new motive power for our Forest of Dean lines - unfortunately I think that there is little chance of the prototype being seen in that location at any time so I shall be applying Rule No.1 in the most stringent fashion.

In the meantime I need to check some facts or, more correctly, the current interpretation of information which was published some decades past. I wish to see what is written in the HMRS Great Western Way (current revision) about loco liveries for auto-fitted engines.

Please PM me if you have this landscape style volume and are prepared to scan a page or two for me.

thank you and regards, Graham
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
Loco liveries … when?

A quick scan of the said volume indicates a standard livery for auto-fitted locos. I'm checking deeper, but need a date and loco class ideally.

Edit: PM sent.
 
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Dog Star

Western Thunderer
A quick scan of the said volume indicates a standard livery for auto-fitted locos. I'm checking deeper, but ....
As with many things GWR, the "standard" livery for auto-fitted engines is nothing like standard when considering the period between circa 1905 and circa 1914.

517 class.

1910-1912.

Allocated to either Slough or Aylesbury.

thanks, Graham
 
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